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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 11:57:02 AM
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Just to qualify that:
Dressage: for the individual there was no prize giving, you just went to the little shack and picked up your rosette - no photos or anything!
For the team, rosettes were given as they entered the arena as a team but Evie's rosette was taken off her and given to the team leader because "Evie's got enough already"
For the show jumping, there was a mounted prize giving but the junior rosette and notification of winning the Championship weren't given at the time and someone ran up to us later in the day and said - we forgot to give you this! (The "this" being a rosette that said Junior Competitor). No photos so we asked Pleasure Prints to please take a photo which they did - and then when we showed it to the people involved in the Premim Scheme - all they could say was "you could have taken your overreach boots off for the photo - you look like you're wearing clogs"
And when Evie and Taz won the best junior performance rider at a Regional show, they didn't receive their trophy because someone forgot to pack it - we've never seen that even though they won all the dressage classes that day (as a rider - not as a junior). Hasten to add all the showing trophies were there and presented!!
Incidentally (and this made us all laugh) when the regional show laid out the dressage arena, we had to tell them that they'd got it wrong - they had measured the arena in feet, not metres so it was mini-dressage!
Oh, and before anyone accuses us of wanting things out of the AHS without putting anything back - we've offered to help organise, steward and be dressage writers!
(Babs, Evie replied to your question - her answer is on page 1) |
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Edited by - templars on 21 Mar 2009 1:40:26 PM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 3:37:34 PM
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Well I have just asked my two (children), daughter Sarah 25 yrs and Anthony 21 yrs how they felt about Malvern and being treated as 2nd class citizens re the performance classes - their answer was a very puzzled "no" they didn't feel they were treated that way but that was in 1998 & 2000.
In 1998, Sarah (14yrs) having been "spotted" during the Midland Festival, Malvern in the dressage was asked to compete for the Midland Group at the National. The Team comprising of Teresa Walters on Silver Reine (Pure Bred), Lian Prescott on Margaret Lloyd's Premium Anglo Arab Stallion El Prendero and Sarah on our own Part Bred Arab (59.38%) Antsar Eddie, won and having been presented with their individual rosettes and sheets at the score board with much applause, then went into the Main Arena in front of a full - yes full - stand. The Presentation was wonderful and the lap of honour they gave to, again I say it, a full stand was something I will never forget - marvelous. Then to cap it all in the Winter 1998 AHS News there was a super photo of the presentation and a write up, which gave a "special mention" to Sarah being a Junior and winning her class. The Arab Horse Society could'nt have done more.
Similarly the 2000 North Staffs Regional Dressage Team - all Juniors placed 4th - AHS Malvern could'nt have done more.
With regard to the comment about riding in with "Show Riders", again my two have never had any problem at Malvern, having both done ridden showing at County & BSPS shows they have been well used to find any patch of available grass to work in before competing. Sarah had more problems with affiliated dressage being on a pony and riding in with competitors at the Prelim & Novice stage who had obviously been out and bought the "dressage horse" 17+ hds and were over-horsed and expected a "child" to move out of their way. BD has working in rules that have to be adhered to big horse or not.
As a family we were offered opportunities by the AHS Malvern and Regional Groups and we took them and went on to compete and train affiliated. I believe those opportunities are still available.
I notice on the AHS website that there were 2007 Performance Horse Awards, again we supported these and did well.
Sarah on our pure bred, Oscar Dareem (RA Scimitar/Maria bint Lavado) has only had one adverse comment which was from a local Dressage Trainer, but when she saw him for the first time as he went down the centre line never another word!
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Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 21 Mar 2009 4:54:36 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 6:09:31 PM
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Hazel
Glad your children had a good experience 11 years ago. The reference made to being a second class citizen is based on the comments made that the only horses that go into performance work are those that can't make it in the showing world.
Like you, we compete regularly at affiliated competitions where the etiquette in the collecting ring is controlled and laid down in the rule books. Warm up at affiliated competitions is more easy to manage because everyone is given a specific time to compete and so the collecting rings are usually not overfilled and (certainly at British Eventing) the dressage warm up area is big enough for many horses to work in for a dressage test. At a mixed showing/performance show where there is a shared collecting ring, then at times, the collecting ring can become quite full and, again our personal experience, it was difficult to practice a dressage test with so many riders in the collecting ring. I make no apology for the remarks about the show jumping - the arena and the collecting ring were wholly unsuitable.
We too have a young rider on a 14.2 competing against adults on 16.3+ horses at affiliated events and we have never had a problem at all. More recently, Evie has started competing on a 16.3 Anglo Arabe and she still doesn't experience problems at affiliated events.
I think your post illustrates how things have changed in the past decade. |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 8:42:28 PM
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My apologies if I upset you ref the teams Templars 
I've been a member of the AHS for years and am a member of the northern group and I had NO IDEA there were regional teams !! Obviously NOT very well publicized ?? I'd love for my boy to be on a dressage team and compete with other purebreds as we often get the gob smacked comments of is he a PUREBRED !! (his mane is in a running plait to keep it out of hands when dressaging)
So perhaps the way forward is to shout about whats already there and encourage people to joining in ?? |
   
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 8:43:38 PM
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| Absolutely anything that promotes the Arabian as a performance horse is to be welcomed. However, for any initiative to be successful, it needs to be supported. I just cannot see Arabian owners travelling for hours to an Arab only performance show to compete in classes that are probably already on their own doorstep in open competition at riding clubs and so on. I have been at two jumping events this week with our part bred coloured mare, each 20 minutes from home. On Wednesday, there was also a pure bred mare competing and it went clear and was placed in the jump off. Our mare took second place in the 75cm class and won the 85cm class, double clears in both classes. Today, we were at a riding club jumping event. Apart from our part bred, there were two pure breds competing. Heather Jones on The Dreamcatcher won the Intermediate class and our mare, Ruby Shy, won the Open. No one looked incredulously at them. No one made any disparaging remarks. Everyone attending now knows they are the ones to beat. If people want to compete with their Arabs, there are already countless avenues open to them, from entry level right up to open. Neither is there any need for them to be segregated by height. Smaller horses, like Arabs, are so much faster against the clock that they beat the big Warmbloods hands down. I have spent the last thirty years proving it. Owners just need to have the confidence to get out there and kick ass by taking on the Arab bashers. I really don't think that the answer is to have an Arab only event but I am happy to be proved wrong. I do agree that the profile of performance at the National Show should be raised. It would also help if show reports could extend to more than a paragraph on the performance events. You want to promote the performance side, then start writing folks. |
http://www.performancearabians.com
http://performancearabians.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/PerformanceArabians
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 09:41:26 AM
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What do young people leaving pony club with all its fun then go on to buy?
If we provided fun performance ,like a simple team chase on Pure-breds would they be attracted to buy a horse for life ,I E never sadly outgrown? |
    
blue moon |
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cameg
Bronze Member
57 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 10:53:07 AM
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| I was on the other pure bred at the riding club show pintoarabians reffers to. This was my first time showjumping for about 20years and the first time ever my gelding has EVER done a course of showjumps. He was a total star and apart from rider error ( I was very nervous!!) would have gone clear. We also stayed for the dressage and he did a really nice test for me. |
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Otto
Bronze Member
England
119 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 2:30:03 PM
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I went to Malvern last year for the first time and I have to say the dressage and showjumping classes seemed like a bit of an "also ran" tucked well away from the main arenas. Sad really when we are all agreed that the Arab is the ultimate versatile breed.
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trinity
Gold Member
Scotland
1126 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 2:54:51 PM
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Totally agree with all that Pintoarabian has said. There are plenty of opportunities to showcase our Arabs, we just have to get out and do it. We have been going over all the schedules for shows up here to get our guys out to, and there is plenty to do with them. Last year, when we took Akhira to different venues to school him, just to get him used to being out and about, we got nothing but favourable comments about his ability to do dressage. Our youngsters will be backed and taken out to do jumping and dressage.
I love your boy Cameg. Great to hear how well you did. |
Beck |
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Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 4:43:02 PM
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so may be this is what needs to be shown off so to speak,
pure breds and pbas "winnings in the wider world"
perhaps the arab horse society could promote what it,s members are competing in and doing really well at,by getting members to email or write in results with photos , that could then be used to show case the breed on the web via links and advertising.
may be place a small add in say H&H (would not cost too much)
with a web address , then give people lots of info on the versatile arab and pbas doing what they do best.
i mean when you read some of the adverts placed in some mags , you just have to have a look,(well i do when i see lovely stallions in H&H) and OK i might not use the stallion but you never know,
give people inspiration and they may just follow your lead.
i agree with pintoarabian .
it is hard to get people to come to one event and it then becomes only noticeable to the arab world,
Abby
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stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 4:53:22 PM
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Still think if AHS could initiate an Open Forum on their Website.....Pics, Results, successes etc etc etc, could be posted directly........less paperwork, postage and minimal upkeep from AHS Staff. Timesaving and `Spreading the word to the World!!
Come on AHS move with the times, save trees....and set up a Website Forum........it is the way forward, and means information readily available for editing and printing in AHS Mags at any given moment!!
Only have to look how successful Arabian Lines Forum is....news updated as it happens, so to speak 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 6:58:50 PM
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Folks - if you check the documents that when out with the Malvern schedule, it does say that THIS year, the Ridden Classes will be in the Main Ring! So that's a step in the right direction!
Keren |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 7:41:34 PM
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The Pony Club market is fully aware of the Arab and there are already loads out there competing.
They are already winning at all levels in all disciplines but - and it's a big but - the parents bought a horse that does the job - the fact that it is an Arab is incidental and they don't see the point in joining the AHS or flying the flag for the Arabian breed because as far as they are concerned, the horse does it's job - end of!!!!
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www.eviepeel.com |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 08:31:02 AM
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You are right in that respect Templars -a good horse doing the job that just happens to be an Arab-and sometimes we are too precious about them .
However if I were an "outsider" looking in I would ask a question.
Why is it that the owners of Pure-Bred Arabs do so little within their ridden events with their own horses .
Putting horse before cart ,
prove the capabilities of the Arab amongst its own kind FIRST, then use the best of those to compete against others
It is not a level playing field Keren
Would you put a pure bred over Burghley?
Focus on getting things right "in-house"
Imagine the typical show
What if after the ridden showing riders were able to take them over a moderate cross country course around the perimeter of the showground.Would that not be an attractive highlight for all Arab enthusiasts
Or maybe have a one day event with dressage ,showjumping and finally the cross country accumulating points over the season .
Would this not be a good thing and not too expensive for organisers? |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 08:56:18 AM
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Possibly Burghley but we've got a pure bred we're definitely aiming at Bramham!
The parts and the Anglos are aimed at Burghley and Badminton. |
www.eviepeel.com |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 09:04:09 AM
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What is the optimum height of fences would you say for a typical Pure-Bred? |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 09:59:31 AM
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To start 75-85 cm but there's no reason why a typical pure bred couldn't go to 110 cm. Those with the "jumping gene" can of course go higher.
If you consider a range of 75-110, then you are covering nearly all the typical classes that any horse can compete at - BSJA, British Eventing, Trailblazers, Pony Club.
Beyond those heights then you are getting into specialist realms and to progress there, you'd need a special horse - whatever the breed.
To start, look at Farmers Guardian and see local riding centres - most run clear round jumping once a month (or more frequently). Go early and you can put the fences down as low as you like and you get a rosette for getting round clear. These sessions are usually followed by an unaffiliated jumping class (usually at 75 cm) but the jumps will now have fillers. It's all a bit of "kid-ology" - get your horse jumping the clear round and then take them over exactly the same course, slightly higher maybe and with fillers and they'll gradually accept the fences.
One tip, if you are competing for the first time - go early. The collecting rings can get busy and be a bit scary - for first time competitors and the horse. If you go early enough, the rings won't be as busy. Every collecting ring should have a steward who organises you all - introduce yourself, say it's your first time and ask if they'll help you. They are all usually very, very helpful.
In general, at your first show jumping competition, enter the collecting ring and walk round - don't just amble round, use it as a flat work schooling, try and get the horse relaxed and listening. It can be spooky and you'll have people rushing up the inside of you and crossing in front of you. Stick to the outside of the collecting ring as you walk round and watch which direction people are approaching the jumps from. When you're a little bit more settled, try a couple of the jumps. Be aware that some people may cut you up and be prepared to ask nicely but loudly for them to leave you alone. If you can take a friend, get them to stand by the wing of the jump and they can do the yelling for you and change the jumps.
Some people have a small army of people who stand by the wings and who put the jumps higher and higher. Don't be initimidated. If that happens go and ask the steward for help. Usually the rules say that you shouldn't be jumping more than 10cm higher in the warm up than the height of the fences in the competition. If someone is going higher and higher, just ask if they would mind dropping the fence for you for a couple of times. Always start with a cross pole and don't worry if it looks really small. This is about you and your horse - don't think what other people will think.
When you're settled, go to the steward and declare that you are ready to jump. When you made your entry, you will have been told a number - you don't get bibs or numbers at unaffiliated shows. Give the steward your number and they will write it up on a chalk board. Keep your eye on the board so you know when to go in.
Before you go into the collecting ring, make sure you've walked the course and spotted any spooky areas - not the fences but the arena itself. One venue near us has a cafe with a glass door that catches the light and that can be a bit off putting.
When you enter the arena to compete it will suddely go cold and the arena will look enormous. Take a deep breath and get your horse into a trot. The usual format is that a bell will go and that's your signal to start and you have about 30 seconds to approach the first jump.
Hint: when you enter the arena, don't head straigh to the first jump, if you noticed a spooky area - trot your horse past that first so that you know how it's going to act - your horse may not think it's spooky. Don't make a great thing out of it, just make it look like your heading towards the start of the course.
The main thing in the first round of the jumping is to keep a steady rhythm. Don't rush and if you need to drop back to a trot at any time, then do that, don't be worried or think people are looking at you. Don't be afraid to talk to your horse (you don't get penalised in showjumping or cross country for talking to your horse but remember you do if you're in dressage).
Aim on getting round, if you hear a pole fall - don't look back, just keep going forward. If you have a refusal, take a BIG circle - don't cut straight in front of the jump. Go wide, get a straight line and try again.
Usually when you've finished, you go back to your wagon or trailer, you don't re-enter the collecting ring. Remember - breathe!! and give your horse a big pat even if it's knocked a pole down.
If you've gone clear then you need to be aware how many people there are in the class. Some classes can have over 40 competitors. If you jumped early, and you've gone clear, go back and load the horse up for a while. If you've jumped near the end of the class, you may be back in soon so go back into the collecting ring.
Look at the blackboard!!!!! It will have the jump off course marked on it. You will now have to jump less fences than you did in the first round but you will be timed. In the early stages - forget the timing bit!!
You will now be told what order you are jumping in - this time you don't choose. The order of jumping will be put up on the blackboard - make a note of when you are expected to jump.
If you're near the bottom of the jump off order, get someone to hold your horse and go and watch a couple of people ride the jump off course. See which route they go, where they make turns and how they are doing.
When it's your turn, go in at an active trot and wait for the bell - by now the spooky part of the arena will have completely disappeared. Don't rush, keep the rhythm and just aim to get round clear - forget the timing.
We've won quite a few classes with a slower time but because we were the only clear.
Don't make the mistake of entering loads of classes - it' easy to think that you can do the 65, 75 and 85 - but don't forget that's 6 rounds of jumping plus the warm up and the stress of competition can be tiring.
At your first competition just do the class you aimed to do. Don't be tempted to do another. If you've had a good round, finish on a high - there's always another day. If you haven't had such a good round, you may want to pop back into the collecting ring and try another couple of practice jumps but if you do this, don't do more than a couple and remember, if the next class is coming in to warm up, the practice fences will go higher.
Main thing, enjoy it and have fun whatever happens.
When you've finished, rug your horse and take boots and tack off (we always have some carrots or polos with us as a treat and then they know they've finished). Offer them a drink (don't forget to take buckets and water with you - you may not be able to get water when you are there). And then go and get a cup of tea.
I hope no-one has taken offence at me posting this but I remember how intimidated we were at our first few show jumping outings (and I've not even started on dressage and eventing!!).
Maybe we could arrange training or days out where competitors from one area go to a venue to practice or compete and those of us who are out there doing it could offer support, advice or just general help. We'd be more than happy to help people who live in the North West (if we're not competing). Maybe we could get a group of us to go cross country training - you can hire the venue for about £20 a horse and we could all go on one day and we could bring a more experienced horse to show how to do it or give nervous horses a lead. There are some super facilities for all levels of competition and we know of a nice place to go with no-one watching but a super mix of fences from tiny ones to difficult ones.
We're not setting ourselves up as experts - and goodness knows we still have tons to learn, but we're more than happy to share our knowledge and experience with other people if that helps get more Arabs out competing. |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 12:55:30 PM
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Hi , i really like the idea of a group of us getting togther to hire a XC course to 'train' what a fabulous thought!
seeing a group of arabs fly round a course would be great fun!
I did post on here some weeks ago now about a sponsored ride and wouldnt it be fun to have a 'AL Getogher with a difference'
instead of going to the pub..lets meet on horseback..!
it didnt take off ( excuse the pun) although 1 - 2 responded most people were too busy , shame.
The advice that Templars is giving is great ,
And well done for standing up and telling it like it is...!
most people wont , because they are scared they will get the showing 'door' slammed in their face 
which let me tell you does happen !
That aside, its not a witch hunt, and we are all guilty of mistakes wether or not we learn from them and move on and IMPROVE remains to be seen ..
Personally ..
I do plan to go to the Nationals this year ( the 1st time in 4 years)
I do plan to compete in showing/dressage/ in-hand and SJ and maybe the costume class.
I hope that we enjoy ALL the classes and they are ALL recognised as PERFORMANCE classes apart from dressing up because isnt that what they are?
In the meantime I do hope that good things come from this thread!People do get cross and throw toys out of the pram ..and in the meantime another season goes by ...
what are you going to do this year?
most of us already know- but why not be crazily random!??
Ring some arab pals and lets storm that PC/RC show and show people what we are capable of! 
Or just go to a local show and SJ and tell us about it!
I think there is a large majority of people that would love to hear more about performance horses it does inspire and move people ...so lets get the ball rolling... xxx |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 1:14:30 PM
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Really good input Templars ,just what ios needed.
There must be dozens of able people out there to help get one started I will explore the possibilities here in Essex. |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 1:22:24 PM
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Sazzlepants
this year we'll be concentrating on the eventing (Evie has been accepted into the JRN programme so we're going to be really busy with that - 3 horses to compete)
We're bringing a young 4 year old Anglo Arab out to start dressage (he's not old enough to event under BE yet). He's 50% Arab by a Premium stallion.
And hopefully we'll be bringing our pure bred boy out to start his eventing career.
On the Pony Club front, we'll be doing dressage, showjumping and eventing. There are quite a few pure and part breds competing and we always go along and say hi. I've printed up some information sheets with our regional group organisers name and contact details, this forum and the AHS contact details and I let them know about the performance schemes etc and encourge them to share their successes (and there are lots)
On the showing front, if we have the time (we may take the babies out - I've got 2 yearling fillies - one 100% Crabbet, and our yearling colt). The fillies hopefully be going to the BEF Futurity classes as well.
Then we have a 3 year old Part bred (75% Arab - grandson of a Premium stallion and 25% Premium Cleveland Bay) who will be being backed this year but will also be going out and about to get him used to the big wide world.
So a mixture of competing and showing.
I don't think we'll be able to make Malvern this year because we have so many events around then and we need to keep going at that - once the horses are focussed and are out every week, it really disturbs their training and performance to take time out. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 1:41:07 PM
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Forgot to say if anyone in the North West does want to have a go at some cross country, the venues are near J18 of the M6 in Cheshire - we go to Smallwood rather than Somerford. Somerford has superb facilities but it can be a bit public. Smallwood is nice and quiet with far fewer people and it's all nice and enclosed - there is a lovely circuit with a good cross section of fences to have a go at and a fairly straight forward water jump. Our more experienced horses go to Somerford or you can hire Kelsall (but be aware that Kelsall has recently been upgraded and there is a British Event there soon so it will be closed)
Another excellent place to try is Eland Lodge in Derbyshire - brilliant for training and then they have their own unaffiliated one day event, the BHS Hunter Trials and of course, they hold events for British Eventing.
We also use Craven Country Rides near Settle. David and his family are super. The trail rides are fun but they can get a bit busy if you are just starting to learn cross country so my personal advice would be to hire it first, get used to it and then go on a trail ride, don't use the trail ride to train.
If you don't want to event but you do want to ride cross country, try the BHS web site for Hunter Trials (ie just cross country riding) You don't have to be a member of BHS to enter. Word of warning though - this is how we started because our local venue is well planned and safe but we did a bit of travelling to other venues and the courses aren't always the safest or well thought out - you may find they have just taken a stone out of a wall or the hedge you are jumping may have barbed wire in it. Check out the course before you enter.
Over the winter there's loads of unaffiliated dressage and showjumping or try the two together at Combined Training.
We go to Smallwood, Kelsall and Somerford regularly so if anyone wants to join us for a fun day - just shout - the more the merrier.
And for anyone interested in eventing, why not pop along and watch - it doesn't usually cost anything to spectate and you will see grass roots eventing - first timers to more experienced people. You'll be surprised to see that all sorts of people with all sorts of capability do it and the beginners don't have to jump things the size of Badminton. There's always a butty and tea stand and limited number of tack stalls - not the big shopping like at the big events, more the bits and bobs you forgot to pack. Seriously though, pop along and soak up the atmosphere and I bet you'll get bitten by the bug and start saying "I could do this!!!!!!" |
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Edited by - templars on 23 Mar 2009 1:46:02 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 3:09:37 PM
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The only restriction that is put on a pure bred competing at a 4star event (Badminton and Burghley) is that the horse must be over 14.2. That's a British restriction - remember Theodore O'Connor the part bred Shetland who won the Kentucky 4star event and who was only 13.2 and who was so tragically injured last year at home.
And don't forget that a pure bred Andalucian completed Badminton in 2007 and he was only 15.0. Headley Brittania is 15.2 and the optimum size for an event horse is 15.3
If I'm being absolutely honest, it's the thrill of competing against other breeds that gives us the buzz and to hear people's surprised comments about us competing Arabs. The most common comment is "but yours aren't real Arabs are they?"
I can't wait till we get a pure bred competing at FEI starred events and they do their veterinary inspection trot up in full Arabian show halter!!!!! Now that will be a sight for sore eyes!!!! Well behaved, bold, capable and proud to fly the flag - and just imagine the look on the faces of the ground jury and the vet when the horse (who has been shown as a baby in hand) does a beautiful pose!!!!
That's my dream!!!!
The fun part is educating them what a "real" Arab is!!!! |
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