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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 08:50:00 AM
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As a result of reading the contributions on the thread AHS Premium Scheme I have an idea .
One of the points made in the middle of the bebate was how it was necessary to add height to Arab blood in order to compete on more level terms with other equines in performance disciplines .That is the fundamental of the AA and PBA.
What if ..
The Pure -bred community were to replicate the disciplines but modified to accomodate the lesser height of the pure-bred?
This way all Pure-bred owners are engaged with performance which then is the showcase for Arab blood in its purest form.
Many years ago the late Linda Hannaford competed pure-breds in team chase against all comers but that was the exception.
Also the ridden classes at Pure-bred shows do not have a large audience.One hears sentences which include the words paint and dry whereas if there were for example a Pure-bred eventing show or similar I believe there would be an audience made up of Arab enthusiasts and curious others .
Primarily it showcases the Pure-bred as a desirable addition for other breeds and also generates wider respect and appreciation of the Premium stock that exists already
Other benefits include additional revenue from coverings and more public exposure of our Arab breed .
The pathfinders in performance already doing it week in and week out could be engaged in teaching/coaching/training and the whole membership can gain enormously from this
One could then breed for a purpose-every horse a home - and generally the Arabian community would be a force to be reckoned with
Possibly invites to other shows and events would follow from non Arab organisers .
Anyway a pebble in the pool..
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blue moon |
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Otto
Bronze Member
England
119 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 11:05:46 AM
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I couldn't agree more! What a super idea. We should be able to compete purebreds in all disciplines to their highest possible ability, regardless of whether they can't jump as high as AA/PBs. I for one would love the opportunity to compete alongside other purebreds and have the chance to showcase the breed. Maybe the other disciplines should feature much more prominently at every Arab show and not just have showing as the frontrunner? We have so many fantastic Arab shows around the country - surely these would be the events to start promoting purebred-only performance across the disciplines? Perhaps a regional or nation-wide purebred dressage series or something like that?? I'd give it a go 
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 11:51:40 AM
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The essence of it is the competition is like with like which would then highlight the winner as a desirable horse to breed with.
In other words one would not be able to judge a Pure arab stallion who was in say the topten cross country against all breeds as easilty as if he was amonst equals. |
blue moon |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 12:47:07 PM
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I think I'm a little confused here. Haven't we been here before?
It has been an opinion already posted (on Premium Scheme thread) that a performance show purely for Arab-bred horses wasn't what was needed, that they should be competing in open competition. I don't think I dreamt this, but after all that has gone on it is a possibility! However IMO it would be a good idea for those who are not confident enough to venture into the wider world, through lack of experience, either horse or rider. It would be a good way to start a novice and not have to listen to the negative comments from other non-arab competitors when it doesn't go quite as planned, as it inevitably does sometimes.
I also agree with separating some of the classes into Pure-bred only and AA/PB if that would encourage entries.
The more experienced horses don't need a show like this
so don't need to use it unless they choose to.
I like the idea of including ridden show classes (after all any ridden horse is performing) and it may encourage some of these competitors to have a go at a different discipline, who knows what talent it may bring to light?
At the Wilton performance show, many years ago, our pure-bred stallion, who had already been Res Junior BNC in hand and had avery successful ridden career, tried the cross country and found his niche, being sold abroad as a jumping pony.
I certainly don't think it can do any harm, of course it would take money, or sponsorship and a good organiser, and if it doesn't work, don't do it again.
Jean
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Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 1:14:32 PM
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having been to some arab horse shows were the venue has been shared so to speak, with say showjumping run on the same day , i noted where the money is, the flash gear on both horses and riders and the many spectators on the showjumping side,
could it be said that many people/even children would not consider coming to a showing show, but are far more interested in competing with their horses/ponies in various disciplines,
a show were horse/ponies of arab heritage and not forgetting purebreds can compete i.e showjumping/dressage ect may well be the way forward to opening up the close world of arabians/pbs in this country to others.
Abby
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stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 1:39:19 PM
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You are right Jean.............already been suggested IN FULL DETAIL and already suggesting such an event take place on one of the three days of the AHS National Show and in the Main Arena, with winners being awarded "BNC performance status" Perhaps as the suggestion was on the Premium Scheme Thread, the Pure Arab Owners/Riders, were not suficiently interested to read!!!
Alistair, do know you have been posting on Premium Scheme thread.....did you not see my posting,suggesting an Arabian Performance Show??
All we have to do....is convince the AHS to finance a one off Event to see if it WILL work.......however, wouldn't hold your breath...they wont consider ANY suggestion or EVENT, WITHOUT THE GUARANTEE it will
be profitable for the AHS  ......UNLESS the Pure Arab Owners
can persuade the AHS to dip their hands into the kitty, and give it a try???
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 1:56:57 PM
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Maybe one of the Regional Groups would like to organise it, as a separate show from Malvern, if it isn't a possibility for the AHS to do it? All regional groups could contribute to the cost and provide a helper or two. A couple of raffles per group, or something similar, would help. Perhaps these are the people who should 'get off their backsides' and contribute something to the breed? It seems there are some groups who don't do much for their members. Or am I on a cloud here? Probably!!
Jean |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 2:26:23 PM
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What advice as a very experienced participant would you give to Pure-Bred owners to help them get started please? |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 2:31:50 PM
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Suggestion:
We could "gate crash" events that are already organised. For example, lots of Pony Club events hold classes for non Pony Club - we could arrange for people in that area to enter so they would be competing against non Arab breeds and then we could also present prizes to the highest placed Arabian horse - specials for highest Anglo, Part or Pure if that's what people want. Specials to the highest placed Premium horses or offspring of Premium horses.
These events start with fairly small beginner classes and so people who are nervous could have a go and take part whilst learning in a safe environment but also alongside a "team" of other Arab riders so they could get support and encouragement.
I think one of the big problems with holding an Arab only event is that there simply won't be enough entries. But if we could identify say 6 or 7 competitions around the country and let people know, we could encourage more people to dip a hoof into the performance world without it costing the AHS anything other than a few rosettes.
We could collate the results and as people get more confident (and hopefully more competitive) they can go out as individuals, safe in the knowledge that they already have a proven track record against non Arabs.
If we can get the Premium web site up and running, we could use that to advertise and collate results. Those of us who are already competing could take responsibility for identifying - say - two competitions each a year and publicising that. They get copies of the schedules and send them out to interested people and then the individual pays for entry and sending the entry forms off but they let the collator know that they have been accepted for entry. The collator then turns up on the day, introduces all the Arab entries to one another so that they don't feel alone - gives them a briefing in how the day will run (for example, pointers about doing a dressage test or show jumping or eventing or whatever - maybe offers some advice in the warm up arenas) and then presents rosettes at the end of the day. It wouldn't matter where the individuals came in the overall competition, they'd still be going home with a rosette and having learned a heck of a lot. It wouldn't cost us anything to hire a venue and the horse world would see 6 or 7 Arabian bred horses out there flying the flag.
The collator can then publicise the results back on the Premium web site stating where the combination came as a team overall and where they came in the Arabian rankings.
Just a thought.
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 2:43:56 PM
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Great idea Alistair, as you know it is something HoCoN have been looking into for some time but once again we are back to expecting someone else (the AHS) to finance it.
Regional Group shows are self financing and as far as I can tell from going back through HoCoN records no money was ever put up by the main body of the AHS - in fact as far as I can tell Regional Groups were started by vounteers who wanted a show in their own area and the first shows were expected to make a profit so as to continue into later years, the original organisers lost their own money if the show made a loss
This whole discussion has gotten rather aggressive on some peoples parts but I do believe that the will is there given the support from the breeders to organise a show. It would require a lot of help and I do have concerns that it would generate a rather large loss based on the fact that the National Show offers Showjumping and Dressage already and that the classes appear to be loss making through lack of support.
I was invited to attend a Shows and Events Committee Meeting some time ago and did suggest that the National Show should maybe go back to basics with a performance show being organised either on the Sunday or even at a completely different time and place. It would certainly make the show easier to run without the peripheral classes
Despite some peoples beliefs we do realise that the contributors to the premium scheme feel they do not require a show of this type but there are many out there who do not have the confidence to comepete with other breeds and this would at least be a start and who knows in the future regional groups could benefit by being able to hold hold qualifiers for the National Performance Championships.
Rather than money I think that one of the main roles of the AHS should be liaison with other breed Societies to see how they can help each other
As HoCoN was the show held at the same time as the showjumping I agree there was penty of flash around mainly the showjumpers lorries many of which cost more than my house but also agree that they did get spectators aplenty.
An example of cost for just a showing show:
Venue £1,000 for one day
Rosettes £500
Judges £1,000
other helpers £1,000
Printing etc £500
Equipment hire etc would need to be added to this as would stabling so I really don't think the AHS could afford to underwrite this without some guaranteed support but given the chance I am sure some of the regional groups would be more than ahppy to do somehting on a smaller scale. If it could be proven to work then an approach could be made to the AHS for a performance show giving thema proven track record.
Alistiar I seem to remember some time ago that Michael tried to do something along the lines you are suggeting under the name Arabissimo and of course Mrs Modderman does the European Sport Horse event
Yvonne
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:17:30 PM
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Cinders........I really am well aware of the expense of staging a show. Seven years ago, I set about introducing my own Show, exclusively for weaned foals. 56 classes, 16 section championships, 2-Supreme Championships and an Overall Supreme of Show Championship.
A different Judge for each Breed/type section and also different Judges (who had not Judged any class or championship on the day)to Judge the Supremes
Also appointed the HOYS public address speaker, huge rosettes and Sashes, and each championship..... a superb trophy.
£1,000 in Supreme Championships prize money (£1500 for our 2009 Show)
2008 was our sixth show and attracted in excess of 300 class entries. Two indoor arenas are hired (one acting as a collecting ring) Also use two professional Ring Stewards. Show starts at 8.30am prompt and O/A Supreme judged at 6.30pm. Two rings going all day. Also provide Judges, Stewards and all assistants with a good buffet and wine.
Entry Fee per class £12. Friends have donated the Trophies and help on the day. With all the costs you state, we have more........and still last year, broke even.
Hence my reason to question why the AHS are so reluctant to stage a one day performance show, when surely there are many friends of the Society who would be willing to help on the day, and to Sponsor.
So you see Cindy, not an ignorant gripe at the AHS....as HAVE been there and AM off my backside doing it.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 20 Mar 2009 6:03:40 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:30:23 PM
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Again a great idea Templars........AHS might well provide special rosettes, but think you would have to afilliate with the Society, before they would offer rosettes, as I did when setting up my Show.
And.........as you say, such a plan would not be at cost to AHS
Surely they would be prepared to sponsor arab performance classes on the basis of your suggstion.
Of one thing I am sure,is the need to safeguard the Arabian Breed for the future, serious considerations must to be given to promoting the performance capabilities of our Breed, to the outside world.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:38:19 PM
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Cinders
Hate to ask this but why have you appointed yourself guardian of the AHS coffers??
Why does everything have to come back to - "you all expect too much of the AHS and you all expect the AHS to pay for everything"
Many of the people you asking this question of have shown unfailing loyalty to the AHS for more years than they care to remember!! (Seriously, some have been members for decades). Those same people have sponsored classes, sponsored shows, set up shows, taken out adverts in the AHS magazine, taken out adverts in , taken out adverts in Arabian Link and paid for adverts on this site. They pay for membership, they pay for assessment to see if they can gain entry to the Premium Scheme, they pay for the advertising once they are accepted into the Premium Scheme. Those of us out and about performing pay incredible sums to compete - our yearly membership for British Eventing is £100 for the rider, each horse costs beteween £80 and £120 and every single entry is nearly £100 per horse plus £10 declaration fee per horse plus of course travel to and from events. We do all that and shout that our horses are Arabian bred and do our bit to promote the breed to the outside world. So for us, the annual membership this year has cost over £500 and we spend on average £200 a week on entries/travel. We do it because we love it but we also do it to fly the flag. I know the level some of the Premium stallions are competing at, and their costs must be just as high.
The show horses pay - what - £30 an entry and do 10 shows a year?
So, please don't lecture us about the cost of promoting the Arabian horse or make totally condescending comments that we should get off our backsides.
We're the ones already financing the publicity of the Arabian horse in the non Arab horse world - what are you doing????????? (Organising an Arab show for Arab people isn't promoting the Arabian breed to the wider world) |
www.eviepeel.com |
Edited by - templars on 20 Mar 2009 4:40:52 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:41:53 PM
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| Hadn't thought of that Babs - but as a way round it, we could offer everyone a free AHS performance card and then use that as a means of saying well done and then the points go to the overall performance record for the end of the year and maybe a parade at Malvern for all competitors?? |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:43:32 PM
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Sadly, I can just hear the "wider world" response to Arab-only eventing (or whatever) - "Oh, that just proves they can't compete again REAL horses, they've had to set up their own little ghetto to make themselves look good!"
I'm not pouring cold water on your idea Alistair, but I'm in full agreement with those who want to play with the big boys. To me, a better way of approaching the idea would be open competitions, but with class/section height limits, so that 15h Arabs compete against 15h TBS, etc.
We have got to be in their faces, and good. It doesn't matter how good we are on our own, that's just 
Keren |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 3:46:24 PM
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MinHe
That's why I suggested Pony Club - they put similar experience people together.
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Edited by - templars on 20 Mar 2009 3:47:57 PM |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 4:41:12 PM
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I'm obviously missing something here - but don't we already have all these classes open to all at Malvern anyway??
Last year the dressage had to be run over 2 full days to cope with the number of entries. There is also a show-jumping ring running for a whole day providing classes for novices up to BSJA level, and even a day of Western Riding competition. |
Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 6:47:54 PM
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Maybe Chris
Do we have for example cross country or a 3 day event in thwe Arab world .?
There are some good suggestions but we need to hear from the Pure-Bred riders about their wishes .
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blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 7:51:46 PM
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This is Evie writing this not Rachelle by the way.
This has gone far enough thankyou. Chris James, fair enough the AHS has got show jumping and dressage at Malvern. BUT, and once again we have to go over this, IT IS OVERSHADOWED BY THE SHOWING. You think Performance has a high enough role at Malvern?? Is that why the showjumping is pushed to the back of the grounds with a whopping great tree in the middle of the ring?? Or that the warm up has only enough room to do a three point turn round the edges? Or that the dressage riders have to warm up with the ridden showing riders?? I'm sorry, but the vast majority on here really can't get into their heads that an Arab can do something other than run round on a piece of leather. I've watched my mum typing on here and have tried REALLY hard to take the middle ground, but how dare any of you call me and my horses (if not personally) second class, just because we don't show. I tried ridden showing once, and would you like to know what happened? The judge got on and had no idea how to ride a performance horse, and was swearing at my poor mare. I stood in tears watching my poor horse having the reins flapped round her head. 8 out of 12 horses showed off their bucking bronko impressions, and the worst of them got second. If my horse would have behaved like that in a dressage arena, we would have been eliminated.
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 9:22:26 PM
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Exactly my point Evie when I suggested that a performance Event at the Nationals, should be staged in the Main Arena....not as you say..tucked away in back rings. Performance is as important as the showing!!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 9:49:36 PM
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Why not just form pure bred dressage teams and show jumping teams within regions which would compete as a team at 'normal' shows / events against all comers and then have a grand competion at the nationals or something like that ??
It doesn't have to be stand alone events or big expense, just people wanting to compete in specific disaplines and enjoy themselves
My 3yr old is out of SHALKAR and will be doing dressage and a bit of SJ when he's older as well as showing and My other boy regularly competes in dressage so why not ??
Surely the only way to showcase the fact that arabs can hold their own against anyone is by doing just that in the open arena ?
And if we win then all the better !! Hopefully people will then see we don't just have 'poodles' |
   
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 08:23:30 AM
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My central point is it could be as well as against other breeds
Get the Pure- breds right first then compete even better . |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 09:02:25 AM
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Phoenixbruka - they do!!!!!!!!!!! The regional groups already send dressage teams and show jumping teams to the Nationals (most of those teams made up of pure breds)
But who knows??????????????????????? Because it's not well publicised, because it's hidden, because no-one cares, because showing takes all the centre stage
This is so annoying. Those of us who do things other than showing have been competing as individuals and on teams for years. And now we've all reached a stage where we are confident of holding our own amongst other breeds, we are trying to raise the profile to encourage others to join us, to give advice on how to get started, to say there are literally hundreds of Arabs (pures, Anglos and parts) already out there doing it! Most of those competing horses are one horse owners who have a go and regularly succeed. They don't breed, they don't show and a great number of them are not members of the AHS. They don't publicise the fact that their horse is an Arab.
Going up the showing route, there is a clear path defined - compete at C shows and aim for BNC and/or Europe - then glory and accolades, stars after a horses name, mega stud fees, photos in glossy magazines.
Follow a non showing route and what's the end game in the Arab world? Obscurity at the Nationals, no recognition but the chance to enter a Premium scheme that is treated as "set aside". No results in Horse and Hound, small write ups at the back of any Arab journal - and don't forget most performance riders will have entered, not one class but one or two showing classes, two dressage classes and two showjumping classes as well as sponsoring classes (so please don't say performance riders don't put their money into Arab shows)
That's the attitude we need to change. This isn't about getting more people out and about competing - you only have to attend competitions on a regular basis to realise just how many Arabs are already out there.
This should be about encouraging people to re-enter the Arab fold - to take pride and hold their head high rather than them feel like they are on their own.
From a performance perspective, Malvern is not a good experience. We've competed there with pures and parts - and to show what all rounders we are, we've done the show classes and then tacked up and done the performance classes. We've come in the ribbons in the showing and then gone on to win the classes in dressage and showjumping (winning the junior showjumping championship). Main arena to collect our 5th or 6th showing (to polite applause), the uneven, dangerous showjumping arena to collect our 1st and Championship (to absolute silence) and to a small hut just off the dressage arena (near the showing warm up area) to collect our junior rider ribbon (without any spectators at all)
As Evie says (and don't forget she took the junior performance titles when she was 11 (on a part bred)and 12 (on a pure bred) - and was on the N Staffs team for dressage and showjumping(all pure breds) - returning the year she was 13 to take the WAHO Horse of the Year title, with a pure bred) - "now tell me performance is viewed as being equal with showing" |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 10:11:09 AM
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Evie, when you competed at the Nationals......were your wins accredited with a British National (Performance) Championship award, as are the Showing Champions...if not, why not???
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 11:48:05 AM
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No!
Don't know why???
I think it may be because there isn't an overall performance championship - each class is treated as a separate class - I won 2'6" with my little 13.2 and then I won the 2'9" with my 14.2 - I was given a rosette saying Junior Competitor as well as my red firsts. (The year I won the 2'9" that was the highest the fences went and all the other competitors were adults on Anglos/Part breds. I was the only pure bred and the only pony sized horse)
I did enter the multiple class classes - but one had to be in hand showing, one ridden showing and one performance class. Wasn't worth the effort!!
Last year the show jumping was scheduled at all the wrong heights - the heights were given in centimeters and metres with conversion to feet and inches in brackets but the conversions were all wrong so that one conversion showed as being 3 feet when it was actually 3 feet 6 inches.
The show jumping classes started at 85 cm and the increments between classes didn't reflect common show jumping classes such as BSJA, Trailblazers or Pony Club which ususally go 65, 75, 85, 95 and 105 (or higher in increments of 10cm). The classes at Malvern went (I think from memory) 85, 90, 100, 105 and 105 was advertised as being 3 feet when it's really 3'6"
Mum wrote on here about it.
We didn't enter last year because the surface is usually so rock hard and slippery and I had 3 horses going to a BE event the day after and I wasn't prepared to risk their legs competing at a show that (to be honest) didn't mean much - whereas we went to the event and did really well and Taz was recognised by lots of non Arab people. That was fun.
The person who designs the show jumping course at Malvern tries really hard and knows his stuff but he's completely hampered by being shoved in the back of beyond, with an arena with terrible surfaces. Last year, there was a big row because the show jumping designer refused to get involved and someone else had to design the course - we looked at it and even though I've won a lot of show jumping, I wouldn't have put one of my horses over it - wrong surface, way too twisty and not flowing.
Again, dissent in the AHS puts the performance horses at risk and lets us know that we really are second class!
Evie x |
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