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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 8:45:02 PM
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While I hear what you are saying as regards mares, I think this line will die the death. The AHS see a competition mare as one whose reproductive influence is limited as she spends half her life proving what she can do, and thus limits her numerical ability to have any influence through her offspring.
Pushing the stallions they hope that awarded 6 premiums a year, over a longer breeding span as even if he remains in competition he can still cover or be used by AI.
His numerical influence can be more easily demonstrated, even though statistically if he produced 50 offspring and five were 'successful' and a mare has 2 out of five, she has the better percentage!!!
Well done mare owners and I wish you luck - you will need it to get the recognition you deserve. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 9:11:58 PM
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Pat........we shall continue to pressure the powers that be...to show recognition and acknowledge the value of our Premium Mares. 
As you say numerically, the stallion input may well produce many more offspring to add to the gene pool. However,if offspring successes are exampled on a percentage basis, there is no reason why a Premium Mare could in fact, score a higher progeny performance rating than a stallion.
If I remember correctly, the British Horse Database, did in fact issue annual Mare progeny performance ratings, for Dressage, Horse Trials and BSJA. Perhaps the Premium Scheme could do similarly ??
Well...we can wish and hope. If at first you dont succeed.......
Babs |
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Edited by - BabsR on 18 Feb 2009 9:14:22 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 10:02:38 AM
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Thought I'd set the record straight on what happened with Taragun's premium.
When Evie and Taz started eventing back in 2007, I contacted the AHS and asked if I could put her forward for her premium. According to the notes on mare premiums, she had not met the criteria (now I know more about eventing, I realise, she would never achieve the criteria set). I was also told that seeing as she didn't have any offspring then she would be ineligible.
During 2008, we literally turned our backs on the Arab world because we knew we'd never make it in the show ring and there seemed so little else we could do within the Arab arena.
I was phoned to say Taz had been awarded the WAHO trophy mid 2008 and it was a complete shock - I didn't even know there was such a thing. Having been awarded it, I asked if I could put her forward for her premium now. I was told "yes - we'll do it when she comes down to to Malvern to collect her award". The week before Malvern, I phoned the AHS to ask what we needed to do and was told that someone had forgotten to send out the forms and so she couldn't be assessed. I said I definitely wanted her grading and what could I do. I was told that I would have to attend a Sports Horse GB grading where 2 of the panel would "be Arab people".
Sports Horse GB sent me all the forms and talked me through the process.
There is a category for offspring and extra points are awarded if the mare has been able to produce offspring which are also performance horses. Since Taz doesn't yet have any, she score zero in this "bonus points" category. However, we had had a scan done and a veterinary report to say that her reproductive system looked fully functional and able to produce a foal.
The assessment was based on her and her performance. After the inspection and trot, canter assessment, we spent a long time talking to the panel about what Taz has achieved. We had her rosettes and record sheet with us, along with some photos.
We were told on the day what her overall score was and given the Head Book rosette but we didn't have her score sheet. That arrived a couple of weeks later along with a congratulations letter. I spoke to the lady at Sports Horse GB, basically to thank her and it was her that told me that the panel had contacted the AHS to say Taz was awarded her Premium. I have heard nothing from the AHS.
Taz is 17 this year and will be retiring from competition work and we will try and get her in foal. The stallion is already chosen.
I must admit, I was slightly miffed when I heard of another veteran mare without offspring being awarded her premium and being sent a letter from the AHS without ever being assessed and she had competed at local riding shows and small unaffiliated disciplines.
There is just massive inconsistency and it is confusing.
Don't get me started on the Performance scheme. The scores for eventing need a massive overhaul. You don't get points until you start winning points at BE events - but as a junior rider, you're not allowed to enter the level where you could get points. Again, another area where the AHS doors are firmly closed to junior riders on pure bred horses.
For those that may be interested in the stallion parades mentioned earlier, I found this
23 Feb Final copy date for adverts and editorial/ articles / news for Issue No 3 of The British Breeder (due out mid-March)
2 March Closing date for entries and catalogue adverts for the PSHP Stallion Parade at Arena UK
14 March
PSHP Stallion Parade at Arena UK, Nr Newark, Notts
23 March Closing date for entries and catalogue adverts for the PSHP Stallion Parade at Myerscough College
12 April PSHP Stallion Parade at Myerscough College, Preston, Lancs
NB: Spectator tickets for all events are available at the door, but can be reserved and paid for beforehand (Hartpury£10 each, Arena UK and Myerscough £5 per person)
If you would like to enter any of the above, or supply copy / adverts as appropriate and need more information or have not received the appropriate booking/ entry forms please e-mail me at celia@cwath.demon.co.uk or call me on 01280 812281 and I will get them to you straight away.
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   www.eviepeel.com    |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 10:28:27 AM
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Denmoor...question Re:the following paragraph posted by Templars
"must admit, I was slightly miffed when I heard of another veteran mare without offspring being awarded her premium and being sent a letter from the AHS without ever being assessed and she had competed at local riding shows and small unaffiliated disciplines"
Under the Premium Scheme criteria for qualification......how could the above possibly be allowed ?? What is the point, and if this is fact, WHO awarded Premium Status??
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 20 Feb 2009 9:07:20 PM |
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Micky
Silver Member
308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 11:06:36 AM
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Maybe if you browse through the AHS site, it might tell you who is on the panel of the premium scheme selectors  |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 1:34:12 PM
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| It does give you the names of the committee. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 8:26:58 PM
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All this would be comical if it wasn't such a disgrace.
Wall of silence again. |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 12:54:24 PM
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Good afternoon everyone, I have attempted to log on for the past few days, but computer said NO.
I have always considered the AA to be an entity in their own right. The Partbreds I would refer to as Arab Derivatives. On a visit to Australia one of our members returned with information on the registration of the Arab Derivatives and it was thought that it might be a possible way forward, as we are aware the present system does not
have any real meaning, or give just recognition to the valuable bloodlines at present in the Partbred Register. |
   
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 3:22:12 PM
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| Hazel, which part of the posting are you having difficulty understanding.Please note I am posting as an individual, and do so in the hope that we can have an interesting and pleasant debate. |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 5:44:21 PM
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Having read the information that Hazel found, I do not understand why we are talking about Arab Derivatives. Where has this word come from? We do not have an Arab Derivative stud book or register. Surely there is no intention to change the Anglo and Part bred name!
Most people in the outside world are quite aware of their Arab connections, it just seems that people within the society are not aware, although I quite agree that the Premium scheme, at present, does not work, and seems to be a total waste of time.
Where is all the publicity from the society extolling the virtues of the Anglo and Parts, because they are the animals that are going out and doing the job they were bred for. |
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jas
Junior Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 5:49:42 PM
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Oh, how I hate that word derivative. It sounds so condescending - why not call them mongrels.
Does that now make the anglo a double derivative, as it is part arab, part thoroughbred.
Having looked at the Australian definition, it's frightening. Plaiting up, not neccesary, and shown in arabian halters - horrors. |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 6:09:10 PM
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Well said, Jas.
Why should we think that every other country has better stud books/registers than ours. It makes me feel quite persecuted. First it's change to French type Anglos and now to Australian type Part-breds,(so sub-divided as to be over bureaucratic and totally confusing) Whatever next?
By all means please just improve the Premium scheme so that it fulfils it's original purpose of promoting Arab blood and encouraging it's use in Light Horse breeding.
Jean |
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Edited by - weirton on 22 Feb 2009 6:11:32 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 6:17:48 PM
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I too hate the word "derivatives" and have read through the Australian definitions..........and far from making it all clear, ie. Pure Bred Arab, Anglo Arab and Part Bred Arab, the complex sub divisions, serve only to create total confusion 
I for one, get really peed off with all this. What could be simpler to even the novice horseman, than, Pure Bred Arab (self explanatory)
Part Bred Arab (self explantory) Anglo Arab (not quite self explanatory) but once advised, easy to remember, an Anglo contains NO blood, OTHER THAN stud book registered Pure Arab and stud book registered Thoroughbred.
All it needs then, is for the Arab Horse Society to promote, promote, promote....AND GET RECOGNITION FOR THOSE AMBASSADORS,
who are out there, proving the value of the Arabian influence, within those three catagories!!
So lets just keep in plain and simple, Arab Horse Stud Book, Anglo Arab Stud Book and Part Bred Arab Register!! 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 23 Feb 2009 5:30:38 PM |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 6:23:34 PM
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Couldn't have put it better myself, Babs.
Jean (another of the peed off brigade) |
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Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 6:38:51 PM
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"Couldn't have put it better myself, Babs."
*i second that *
so if we crossed our arabian "derivatives" i.e.Arabian Warmblood with say the Arabian Riding Pony what category do we end up in??? all too confusing
the three formats as we know them make perfect sense to me.
Abby
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stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 7:18:17 PM
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How refreshing to have some sensible replies from people who know what they are talking about.
Forget the Arab Warmblood cross - what about Arab x Zebra. A striped Section 11 methinks! |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 9:20:35 PM
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Denmoor it was
"On a visit to Australia one of our members returned with information on the registration of the Arab Derivatives and it was thought that it might be a possible way forward, as we are aware the present system does not have any real meaning, or give just recognition to the valuable bloodlines at present in the Partbred Register."
I wanted to read what the Australian Derivatives were before asking any questions. I certainly think this debate is very healthy and being an AHS member breeding PBAs, it is very encouraging to know there is such support and passion for AA & PBA's and the relevant schemes.
My questions are
Is it thought beneficial to sub divide the AA & PBA's still further?
If sub divided will it encourage the Peformance Stallions/Mares registered with other Societies, with enough arab blood, to overstamp and become Premium Scheme Stallions/Mares and therefore lifting the Premium Scheme's profile?
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Micky
Silver Member
308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 12:26:26 PM
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Why on earth would we want to sub divide the AA or PBA?  |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 1:34:11 PM
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Hi Hazel.......DON`T THINK SO!! cannot imagine, for a moment that Premium Stallions/Brood Mares that have graded with other Breed Societies/Equestrian Bodies, would WANT to overstamp their GRADED STOCK, with the Arab Horse Society.
With the general Equine public consensus being that "Arabs are a waste of space", what advantages would AHS overstamping offer them??
Totally agree with you Micky, why should we sub divide our stud books and registers?? What we have, covers all the registration criteria of whatever Arab percentages there are in any foal/horse or pony,
Stallion Mare or gelding!!
In MO Mares that are awarded AHS Premium Status, owners SHOULD BE ALLOWED to cover their mare with ANY Premium stallion, and not be forced to use AHS premium stallions ONLY, to claim their premium payment. This may then, encourage owners of High Class AHS Performance Mares, to register their foals with AHS and therefore introduce new bloodlines, which long term, will benefit the Premium Scheme (particularly the Anglos and Part Bred Arabs)
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 23 Feb 2009 10:16:47 PM |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 2:00:30 PM
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Hazel, Thankyou for your posting,The AA register is self explanatory, as it is made up of Arab and Throughbred blood.
Perhaps we might overlook the sec 2 debate for this exercise, as the working party will I am sure be dealing with this question.
The PBA register is made up of a great many crosses, and heights. It seems a pity not to be able to identify the
crosses and breedlines our successful performance stock is being derived from, both horses and ponies. IMO if we do not take advantage of this valuable information, more performance stock will be imported, and our breeders will drift toward other stud books, offering them Sport Horse/Pony recognition. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 2:45:24 PM
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RUBBISH!! IMHO.....Does this now mean we may need also to subdivide the Pure Arabian Stud Book into Horses/Ponies, at some time in the future 
If any buyer looking to purchase, for whatever reason, researches a named bloodline etc., all the necessary breeding/performance info can be obtained.
Should they then still choose to purchase from abroad, no amount of sub-dividing, name/definition changing etc etc of our Stud Books/Registers will put pressure on potential purchasers, to buy our English bred horses.
This is a fact we have to accept!! It is not the reason to believe that Continental Horses are any BETTER than ours nor a reason why we should alter our Stud Book definitions to accommodate imports (the old adage, When in Rome, do as the Romans do, springs to mind) The inclusion of same therof, will not neccessarily make a vast improvement to our Premium Scheme!!
The Premium Scheme failure in it`s present form, IMO has not one jot, got anything to do with encouraging more Continental/Warmblood, whatever bloodlines, to improve English Bred Horses. It is more about AHS focussing maximum attention on Showing, with minimal interest in Performance!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 23 Feb 2009 10:23:44 PM |
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