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mogwai
Platinum Member
 England
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 8:06:49 PM
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I have a filly with sabino markings (i think!). 4 knee high white socks, broad white blaze and a little white on her chin. How is the gene passed on? If she was bred to stallion with sabino markings, would the resluting foal automatically have sabino markings too?
Just curious. Please excuse any dodgy terminology, colour genetics aren't my strong point 
Ros
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karen d
Gold Member
United Kingdom
847 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 8:57:11 PM
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A common defining feature of sabino markings tends to be roaning around the edges of the white markings.
its where the 'border' of the white markings intermix with the horses base colour, and where white hairs start to blend with the darker surrounding coat.
totally separate to the 'roaning' gene.
a horse that carries a single inherited copy of the gene will display the broken sabino markings, and possibly only a small amount of white, but, a horse that carries 2 inherited copies of the sabino gene (homozygous) will be almost pure white!!!!!
All of our blagdon cobs have the sabino gene, big white faces, long white stockings which carry on up over the rump, and white splahes on the belly.
our colt is heterozygous positive for the dominant sabino gene (nSb1 to be posh!!!) which means that we have a 50% chance when he is put to a solid mare of producing the Sabino markings
not sure if i have explained myself properly, but i know what i mean!!! |
www.gkjarabians.co.uk |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 9:10:06 PM
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Should have thought of the cobs! Don't think Ruby's sabino then! Just interested. Colour genetics are way beyond me, but are fascinating!
Cheers
x |
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karen d
Gold Member
United Kingdom
847 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 9:16:20 PM
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I find the whole thing absolutely facinating!!
If you put ruby to baby woody, for example, because he is Homozygous for the black gene, you will never get a chestnut or grey, he is Hetrozygous for the Agouti (bay) gene, so you would have a 50% chance of a bay and as he is hetrozygous for the sabino gene, you have a 50% chance of the sabino markings.
all very interesting |
www.gkjarabians.co.uk |
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 11:07:15 PM
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Pintoarabian,
I think your colt's markings are fantastic, and he looks like a lovely horse beneath the markings too! I love high white and random white markings. Kharidian hasn't got a belly splash but another purebred by Prince Sadik has - Red Gauntlet by Prince Sadik (see my signature pics) has a splash and his owner has registered him with CHAPS.
I still haven't got much beyond "chestnut to chestnut will only throw chestnut" and "you can't get a grey without a grey parent" with colour genetics.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 07:32:44 AM
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Lol Caryn, that's EXACTLY where i am 
Picasso kossac, i just love looking at him. Superb
Ros x |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 08:37:20 AM
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| My Kubinec grand-daughter does not have pronounced sabino characteristics, 4 discreet white socks and narrow blaze, but she does have the tiniest white mark near her belly, not from a scar, so I think she probably carries the gene. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 11:29:32 AM
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With the Sabino gene there is inevitably three horses travelling together: Mahruss, Rodania and Mesaoud....Take a look at your horse's pedigree and take it back as far as it will go...voila!
For example, Picasso Kossack has those genes in multiples through Priboj and carried on both sides of the pedigree.... |
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Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 12:07:01 PM
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i do love the sabino expression in the coat pattern,i know Arabs are not meant to be termed "coloured" but you can,t say the Picasso Kossack does not look stunning,
this sabino coat pattern is very much sort after in some circles across America,horses with this type of colouring can fetch high prices in the US.and something breeders are trying to enhance
so "coloured Arabians" well there,s a thought!!!!
Abby
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stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
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mouse
Silver Member
United Kingdom
309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 1:17:47 PM
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Hi Mogwai
If your filly has a spot on her chin, it's quite probable that she has the sabino gene. It's really just down to 'luck' whether this is expressed in a more dramatic manner like Picasso Kossack. Assuming that your filly and your chosen stallion both have one copy of the sabino gene each you have a 50% chance of this being passed onto their offspring either minimally like your filly, or more dramatically.
Egbert, I was very interested in your comment and looked back in my mare's pedigree. Low and behold, all three horses are there. She is Sha'baan x Nigella and has very loud markings like Kossack
Mouse |
    
South Norfolk/Suffolk border |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 6:01:22 PM
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Sabino pinto is present in something like 70% of all Arabs to one extent or another - it can be very modest as in my mare who has only a star/strip, snip and off hind pastern white. It is also unpredictable in how it expresses, so there is no guarantee that two loudly-marked sabinos will produce an equally loud offspring - but two conservatively marked sabinos are quite able to produce something with gobsmaking amounts of white!!!
"Blagdon" is just a regional English word for sabino, almost certainly derived from the Old French "blazonée" meaning large white markings.
The Americans had sabino all along in their gene pool, they were just brainwashed into thinking it was a sign of impurity by a couple of influential figures acting on incorrect information and so bred AWAY from it for decades...it has taken them all this time to catch up with the rest of the world in this respect!
In Europe, only tobiano ("gyppo pony) pinto pattern is recognised by the term "coloured", whereas it should honestly apply to the many variations of pinto patterns: sabino overo pinto occurs in the Arab and its many derivatives (even including the Shire and Clyde!) and may often be combined with splash overo pinto, whereas frame overo pinto seems to be restricted to New World breeds and their crosses. Tobiano is the predominant pattern in most of Europe, but horses with the tobiano gene can ALSO have both sabino and splash as well: however, these tend to be "masked" by the extent of white produced by tobiano.
It is believed that some sabino pinto Arabians may also carry splash pinto, but again, it is difficult to be sure on visual evidence alone.
I'm not sure what the current theory is on the inheritance pattern of sabino pinto - this is a past-moving field of research - but back in the 1990s it was believed to be a simple dominant.
Keren |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 9:13:53 PM
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Hi Keren,
You are certainly correct about the bad info. Albert Harris one of the first Presidents of our Arabian registry put out that info which Lady Wentworth reportedly had hysterics laughing about it. Problem is that the Egyptian breeders have perpetuated the myth. In fact the Persians were breeding for the wild coloring and if you look at their art for the last 300 or more years there are paintings of what are clearly pinto Arabians!
Lady Wentworth talks a bit about their program in the Authentic Arabian Horse.
Good points Keren!
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haggis
Silver Member
England
278 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 10:55:07 PM
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| Colour inheritance is a fascinating subject. One book I have found that explains how colour is inherited and expressed is " HORSE COLOUR EXPLAINED" by Jeanette Gower, She has photos of various sabino markings as well as everything else you can think of!! |
    
CUMBRIA |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 07:44:36 AM
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| Agree very good basic book with some very odd coloured horses demonstrated in photos. |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 09:01:37 AM
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I believe that where there is HIND in the pedigree then there is a chance of the roaning. |
    
blue moon |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 02:34:43 AM
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Hi Alistair,
There are three 'Hind's in Pearson's Arabian Horse Families of Egypt. Am assuming you mean the one by Ibn Rabdan x Bint Rustem....Interestingly that Hind carries lines to both Rodania and Mesaoud but not Mahruss who would be the last of the triumverate to give the loud white. Most Rodanias I've known carry some level of roaning when combined with Mesaoud. |
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