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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 2:41:43 PM
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Cinders's point is a good one .
Who would be able to do it It may not be in the original budget for the scheme.
Maybe it should be chargeable and owners could write the narrative on the website for a fee-it is promotion of sorts.
We have one of the most qualified mares in Europe but because no details were given by owners(myself included) and Council to ECAHO she has no stars have been awarded.Therefore I do sympathise to some extent with the complaints but in many ways we expect too much from others when we should do it ourselves .
Take a mature view about publicity too .
We won the Supreme Overall Ridden but the horse that was on the front cover of the Arabian Link was the an AA who was reserve .It comes with the territory so you have to forget it .
Traditionally when choosing a stallion one looks at the crop on the ground and this is where in my mind some work needs doing .
How can a customer make a decision without seeing the progeny,in the flesh or in a publication ?
The AHS Premium scheme is either about promoting the addition of PURE-Bred stallions to other lines or it is about the promotion of the stock resulting from that choice .
If it is the former then it should have many more stallions listed ,in each region ,accessable to all breeders
If it is the latter then lots of images /a separate promotion /parade /listing to market the ethos should be undertaken .
The scheme as it is at present cannot ,within budget, do both
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blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 3:00:19 PM
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I'll willingly write what we are doing and share our experiences - we have up to date photos every time we go out and we're out every week from February util October. I'll pay for them to be published when the showing fraternity pay for theirs. Until then, I'll continue sharing with people who want to know and who are supportive even if they don't compete themselves.
That's one of the reasons why I started posting on here - not to blow our own trumpet or expect "names in lights" but to share with people that these particular bloodlines can and do perform and to try and get more people to just go out and have a go. We love it when we go to events with Taz and people who don't know one end of an Arab from another come up and say - is that the little Arab who was in Horse and Hound? "Isn't she tiny?" "Isn't she pretty" or just "can I stroke her?"
Don't worry Alistair - we agree with you about being overlooked it's happened to us so many times, we just smile now. |
   www.eviepeel.com    |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 3:13:10 PM
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The answer is right in front of us
This website-yes AL- is the perfect showcase to start with
If the website is linked to all other breed sites then it would be worth paying to promote on here
What do you think? |
blue moon |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 5:29:34 PM
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Doh - now I'm going to sound like a party pooper and I really don't want to but...
the home for this information and the responsibility for providing that home is the AHS Premium Scheme. As well meaning as this site is, it's not the primary place to keep premium information when that information relates to Premium stock that has been selected, appraised and judged by the AHS as ambassadors of the breed.
We need a proper database and selection criteria and it needs to be readily available to non Arab people. And this site isn't used by all Arab owners. And we need a mechanism to disseminate the information in hard copy.
This is a start and it's a great informal means of sharing information but it's not the full answer.
It's a little like charities having to take responsibility for government's failure to do their duty.
The AHS set up the Premium Scheme. The AHS administers the Premium Scheme. The AHS has final sanction over who will be selected to be in to the Premium Scheme. The AHS should take responsibility for keeping its own house in order and not be derelict in their duty to their own Premium horses by abdicating responsibility to a well meaning but unofficial body.
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 9:10:48 PM
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Nicky Romarnic Ranger's PSHP Stallion Parade photos are super, beautifully turned out. Unfortunately I was unable to go to Arena UK as planned, but had a "spy" there and Romarnic Ranger was, as you say, very well received.
The photos are on Greenlees Photographers website. |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 07:01:01 AM
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Thanks hazel
My 14 yr old daughter rode him in as we had the coloured stallion there as well.
There was a lovely lady there who paints and sculpts and she took loads of photos of them both in the collecting ring so will post some once we get them through.
It was a shame that more premium stallions didnt go but at least one of us was there! |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 08:50:06 AM
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Alistair - just re-read your post
Are you suggesting that the Anglos and Part breds should not be part of the Premium scheme?
That would be a disaster!
If we are to promote Arabian bloodlines, we need to demonstrate what value they add when crossed with other breeds, and without putting too fine a point on it, even the very best pure bred will eventually hit a limit in performance disciplines because of size. We need the outcrosses to other breeds to add the complementary size.
If we restrict the Premium Scheme to pure bred only, then we will become even more insular and lose appeal to non Arab owners.
People like Nicky, Babs and Weirton have do so much to promote Arabian bloodlines with other breeds - it would be a massive step backwards and undo all their hard work if the Premium Scheme is effectively closed to them. Jurassic Park here we come
We need someone on the Committee who understands what Performance animals are and who isn't bogged down in showing mentality or has hang ups about pure breds only. ....Nicky??????? |
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Edited by - templars on 18 Mar 2009 08:53:28 AM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 09:11:30 AM
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Have to agree there Alistair, surely as Templars asked, you cant be serious, if you are suggesting that the Premium Scheme should be about promoting PURE ARAB stallions/Mares only????
Hoping we have misunderstood what you suggest and that this is NOT yet another `stab in the back` for Premium Anglo/Part Bred Arab Breeder/Owners
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStus.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 18 Mar 2009 09:13:19 AM |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 09:38:14 AM
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I see where you are coming fromTemplars
Somehow there are two objectives which have become conjoined in this debate
The founding principle of the AHS is to "introduce Arab blood to Light Horse breeding "
This is helped by the Premium Scheme .
The second part of encouraging the use of this blood by using the descendants to me is something separate and should be developed much more .
Asd has been proven by many of you on here the Scheme is limited in its ability to further assist the process.
May I point to an example of how it could be for the dedicated owners
If one looks at some of the large threads on here such as "Russian Arabs " one sees hundreds of photos and archive material,anecdotes and the imparting of knowledge for the general good .
Likewise "Crabbet" etc.
What I visualise is that you all start a thread /site which runs and runs with news about performances,photos,photos and more photos of this cornucopia of talent and hard work .
I have no doubt that this would benefit all the members,utimately creating a large pressure group ,and encourage many idle Stallions to be used .
There can be a very positive outcome for all of us by really trying to solve the issue and leaving something really worthwhile for future generations.
To me a good horse is a good horse and judging by some of the photos on here so far and living with a Guinness bredPB mare I do appreciate what I see .
So why am I on here?
In these times the Members need to pull together
The Society needs harmony and growth.
There are thousands of potential coverings out there to be had with a coherent strategy.
Discord is negative and the whole membership suffers
It would be a great pity if the work so far was to wither on the vine
through lack of care.
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blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 10:39:12 AM
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Alistair.....your idea sounds fine, we can start a new thread "AHS Premium Scheme Progeny" However...not all the outside World are A/Liners nor may they be interested in the Arabian Lines Forum. The obvious choice would be to go to Arab Horse Society in the first instance, to enquire about Premium Scheme Stallions....they in turn, would be directed to the Premium Scheme Website by the AHS staff. Can`t imagine the AHS staff directing potential Premium Scheme Customers to Arabian Lines to view PS stallions` offspring, Can You????
We are still back to the same fact.....The AHS Premium Scheme was introduced by the Society, to encourage Arabian Bloodlines into Light Horse Breeding and is part of the charitable status if the Society. Administration and maintenance to ensure that the Premium Scheme Website is fully informative and up to date, really remains the responsibility of the AHS.
Surely, when initially setting up the Premium Scheme Website, AHS were aware they had a duty to provide a staff member to maintain same, or did they again rely on the fact a volunteer would be found??? IMO those that start a project should be there to see it through!! and fulfill their responsibility to that project.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 18 Mar 2009 6:25:22 PM |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 10:54:22 AM
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It is taken as read that the AHS will do it with in the funds but is that realistic?
I meant as well as you should show stock on here
Links to other breeds is the key here
taking the info to the potential customer so they do not have to search.It does sew seeds .
A good maths bod would suggest the Ahs funds would be better spend on promoting Pure-Bred stallions to other breeds as this is ultimately the best way to increase the descendant community ,though I am not suggesting that, but many may take that view .
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blue moon |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 11:00:47 AM
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| The AHS Premium Scheme is for Pure Breds and I wonder how many Stallions & Mares who could qualify for Premium Status, especially from their In Hand & Ridden Showing achievements, which have not done so and why? |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 11:50:30 AM
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Of course it is the responsibility of the AHS but as Alistair has pointed out funds are limited and staff time taken up with other areas. It should be pointed out that the AHS committee(s) are made up of unpaid volunteers therefore I see no good reason why an interested party would not want to contribute to the promotion of the breed by offereing their time and expertise to assist in the running of the scheme and the gathering of the information that you want published.
As for breeding a performance horse it would not even occur to me to look at the performance record as I firmly believe that any arab could with the time and will achieve a performance record if the owner is capable of or has the funds to pay someone to compete. And further that many horses out there have neve been tested and thereore cannot be discounted as performance horses just because their owners have chosen not to compete with them or their offspring
I have to admit that the stallions in the premium scheme for me offer too little choice of bloodlines which are my primary concern when choosing a stallion. My russian mares at least have proved themselves in racing but their offspring will likely never get the chance as the expense is too great.
I would suggest that should a volunteer come forward with a proposal for updating the webiste, gathring the required information and negotiating with the wider horse world for their their own websites to have a link to the AHS site they would be very much welcome
As regards articles and payment therefor I think most purebred owners do pay for their advertising and that dare I say it the articles reflect the revenue contribution made
Yvonne
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 11:50:42 AM
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I've just looked back through this thread and I thought we were getting somewhere. But you know what - after 17 pages - we're not.
I give up
I'm so proud I have a Premium mare - awarded her Premium on her own performance record
My foundation pure bred stallion is the son of a Premium pure bred stallion (NaStA graded)
My hope for the future is a 50% Anglo sired by a Premium pure bred stallion
But I do have criticisms of the administration of the Premium Scheme, based on my own experiences and the experiences that others have shared. We all agree though, that we support and want the Premium Scheme to succeed. There is absolutely no disagreement about that.
How can it be divisive to ask the AHS to take responsibility for its own Premium Scheme rather than invite people to post updates and photos on an unofficial chat forum where we would be promoting ourselves to the converted? I'm a little sick and tired of comments like "we should all pull together"
Those of us with Premium horses are doing the pulling but who is doing the bloody steering????????
Edited to add (in response to Cinders posting)
Yvonne - your response is so naive that I'm lost for words!! |
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Edited by - templars on 18 Mar 2009 11:54:13 AM |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 3:53:18 PM
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As for breeding a performance horse it would not even occur to me to look at the performance record as I firmly believe that any arab could with the time and will achieve a performance record if the owner is capable of or has the funds to pay someone to compete. And further that many horses out there have neve been tested and thereore cannot be discounted as performance horses just because their owners have chosen not to compete with them or their offspring
Following this train of thought:
Question:
does that mean that the worldwide Bloodstock industry has got it wrong all these years? That any horse with the right jockey can race? If that's the case then why does the bloodstock industry print sales cataologues with the performance record of all animals in the horse's pedigree?
does that mean that any child with the right PE teacher and parents who are prepared to spend money on the right coach could become an Olympic athelete? Sorry but with all the money in the world and an army of personal trainers, I'm never going to be a Paula Radcliffe or a Fatima Whitbread
Of course there are horses that haven't got a performance record just like there are horses that haven't got a show record - because the owner chooses not take part in that activity. There are also a vast number of horses that would compete to a certain (lower) level. But the top horses come from generations of horses that have ability to perform and the ability to pass that ability on to their offspring.
Sorry Yvonne - but your comment does nothing more than highlight exactly why we need people involved with the Premium Scheme who understand what the Premium Scheme is all about.
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Avonbrook
Silver Member
287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 5:49:36 PM
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I agree fully Templars. I have to confess that the idea of cboosing a sire to produce a performance horse without knowing whether it can perform completely takes my breath away. The event rider who was schooling Marcus for me this afternoon nearly fell off him laughing.
Hazel, if you look at the list of premium stallions, you will find that it is not a pure-bred only phenomenon.
Rowena |
  
www.avonbrookstud.co.uk |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 6:09:58 PM
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Whilst I agree there is room for and a want for, all levels of Showing and Performance Arabian Bloodlines, from the Local Show Enthusiast right through to the World Class Eventer. Each Arabian.Anglo/ Part Bred Owner, choosing their own level.
However, that is not the real aim of the AHS Premium Scheme which seeks to not only demonstrate to the wider equine public that, apart from the obvious Beauty of the Arabian Horse, and the contradictory belief that they are "Just a Show Horse" Arabian bloodlines are there to be seen, in World Class Competition Horses......but we need to shout this fact LOUDER!!
Beautiful Showhorses...Yes, but breeding purely and simply for looks is IMO a backwards breeding policy. I am proud of my Home Bred Premium Stallion, who has gained his Premium by Merit, through his many successful Show and Competition Progeny. I appreciate a beautiful, well conformed Horse, but when starting out, my breeding policy was based on Performance
Bloodlines as a priority,
The Premium Scheme set out to encourage Owners to compete to an ever higher level of competition, and those that have done so
HAVE PROVEN, that Arabian Performance Bloodlines DO produce Performance horses capable of competing with the best!!
Templars, nn and Vlacq are but three dedicated breeders who
are also out there flying the flag for the Arabian/Anglo/Part Bred Arabians, in open affiliated competition. However,why is it generally considered that their Performance results, are seen as of secondary importance to that of a BNC Show Horse.
I regrettably foresee the AHS Premium Scheme will cease to exist in the not too distant future. The present format, offers little advantage to Premium Stallion/Mare Owners/Breeders and for readers/enquirers, limited and outdated information.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 6:30:23 PM
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Sorry Babsr pressed the wrong key
You are in total agreement with what I started and continued to say about being "louder" about the progeny
As I noted two objectives have become conjoined .
!) The AHS scheme is not fully up to date and working so well from customers viewpoint
And 2)The progeny (raison d'etre) are not promoted enough .
Both sortable .
Cinders point about the volunteers is a good one .#
Is there anyone on here with the skills needed to make it happen?? |
blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 6:57:42 PM
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Alistair, why does AHS always seem to rely on Volunteers????? Why cannot they PAY their Office staff???
The very people on here who have the dedication to probably be the right `material` to administer to the Premium Scheme, are fully occupied out there in the wider competition circles, proving, advertising and promoting!!!!
The dedicated Breeders, fully occupied, tending their Breeding stock, many as in our case, single handed or with the help of OH. therefore not sufficient hours in the day, to also become a Premium Scheme Secretary.
The AHS should assign a dedicated staff member to the post and not rely on volunteers. Maybe then, we might see an improvement.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 09:42:38 AM
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Alistair
Here I go again, being the doom and gloom merchant but - I think people would willingly volunteer to help but there have been accusations of people trying to get on Council or promote their own horses so I think everyone is a little nervous in case their offers are misinterpreted.
If someone within the Premium Scheme or a volunteer were to set up such a forum on the Premium Scheme web site, then as a starter I am sure the Premium horses owners would take responsibility for keeping it up to date if we are all able to post on it. Once there is open access, I'm sure a volunteer could be found to collate results.
There is a way and there is a positive outcome it just needs sensitive handling whilst emotions are so raw. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 09:59:23 AM
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Templars........that is the best idea yet, as a way forward with the Premium Scheme....A Forum, properly regulated as is on Arabian Lines.
This would mean Members could post all their News, Successes, photos
Feel sure that if this positive idea is taken on board by the AHS
then Members would be able to directly promote the Premium Scheme
and editorial information be readily available, for editing and printing in AHS Newsletters and Yearbook.....result, everyone happy
Whilst on the subject of Forums, would it not also be a good idea for the AHS to initiate an open forum, where Members would have direct access to air their views to the elected Council. Certainly may be a way forward for openness and information, instead of the `closed door`
outdated system now operated.
Templars, definitely think you should be on the AHS Council  !!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 19 Mar 2009 10:06:21 AM |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 10:52:20 AM
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Great idea templars. I'll second your nomination Babs.
Jean |
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Edited by - weirton on 19 Mar 2009 10:54:39 AM |
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