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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 09:38:21 AM
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I quite like Alistairs ideas and think that those with the passion should get off their backsides and do something about it. Membership of any Society is a two way relationship why do we always hear cries of "the AHS is doign nothing" rather than lets ask them to support us in getting something off the ground ourselves
Cinders - I think you may have misinterpreted what has been said. This isn't an AHS bashing thread! A Premium Scheme in any breed society is run by that society to promote the excellence and ability of that breed. The members know what the criteria are and (if they are so inclined) strive to meet those criteria to prove that their horses are worthy to be accepted into such a scheme. For every breeder/owner/rider, the award of a Premium is an honour.
What this thread has shown is that many of us have done just what you have said and "got off our backsides" and taken up the gauntlet to prove that our horses are good enough to be awarded a Premium. What we are saying on here is that we have proved but the struggle comes in a) getting the Premium Scheme to formally acknowledge that the award has been granted and b) that the promised inclusion in a select group is not publicised.
That isn't something the individual members can address. It's a bit like joining the AHS - you can apply and say you are a member, but until you receive your official pack, you can't prove your membership or enter breeding stock. What if you had paid your membership, bought a world winning show mare, put her in foal to a world winning stallion at great cost to yourself, produced a stunning foal and then found that your membership wasn't really recognised - the mare wasn't really yours and you couldn't register the foal. Would you be accused of not getting off your backside?
I am incredibly proud and honoured to have a Premium mare. I know what it took to get that Premium (and believe me, there was no backside resting). My issue is that the AHS and Premium Scheme do not share the same pride and sadly, I realise that I am not alone - as this thread shows.
And I'm really sorry to say this but even if there was a Premium show, we wouldn't take part - it's not what we do. We are a performance team. We'd willingly take part in a parade of Premium horses but I don't want to show. I just find it so sad that time and again on this thread two things keep being overlooked - mares; and the fact that showing is not the end goal for all Arab breeders. Horses for courses guys!! |
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Micky
Silver Member
308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 11:19:46 AM
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Templars,
Well said, I couldnt have put it better myself.  There is so much more that can be done with an arab, other than running around on a ten foot lead. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 11:51:02 AM
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Denmoor....all Anglo Arab stallions currently standing at stud WILL be affected, should Anglo Arab sec11 ever be allowed entry into our Pure Anglo Stud Book 
There are also a number of Anglo Premium Stallions, who genuinely have the right to advertise as Anglos. Tell me, will the Part Bred Anglo (sec 11) stallion Owners (if, God Forbid, this is ever allowed to happen)... will they make a point of informing the reader or enquirer, that they are actually a Part Bred Anglo.....I think not!!
And yes........the confusion it WILL cause, as already there are Part Bred Stallion owners who ARE ADVERTISING THEIR STALLIONS AS ANGLO ARABS.....confusion, confusion, confusion!!!!!
Apologies if I have posted on the wrong thread, however, my post does draw to attention, the affect sec.11 Anglos will have on our Premium Scheme Anglo stallion Owners
When a Mare owner decides on breeding a foal, He/She will choose if they want to breed Pure Arab, Anglo, or Part Bred Arab.. If deciding on an Anglo.......do they need the `hassle` of wading through possibly four sub-divisions of our AA Stud book and the definite confusion Sec.11 Anglos (sorry I meant Part Bred Anglos)will bring!!
Babs
SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 14 Mar 2009 3:15:38 PM |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 11:34:42 AM
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I sort of disagree with Sue, certainly at most group shows the Anglo and part bred classes are subsidised by the Pure Bred owners due to the lack of support from the Anglo and Part bred fraternity.
I caluclatedthis by taking the expenses of a judge, rosettes, a steward etc, allowing nothing for the venue, printing etc.
Last year HoCoN took on board what some of our AA/PB said and had a potential Sport Horse class which thye said would attract entries - we had 5 of which 4 were purebreds.
BabsR - it seems you have made quite a lot of effort but as Sue has said the proof of the pudding is that you could not get enough support to run the show. I doubt I'll be able to attend the AGM but if anyone out there is prepared to publish ideas that would get more Anglos and Part Breds to the Group shows I am sure the Show Secretaries would be interested (provided the costs could be covered)
It's too late for this year but HoCoN would be happy to offer a premium scheme class. Performance is another issue as we have offered these classes in the past and they were not supported so they had to be dropped
Yvonne |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 11:40:31 AM
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Sorry but this is about the Premium Scheme - not showing
The Premium horses are Performance horses (yes, some of them may have got their Premium on the basis of a superb showing record) but essentially it's about Premium performance horses.
WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY can't people accept that a Premium animal usually comes into its own in a performance discipline and most of the Premium animals are out there too busy performing and they won't take time off to go in a show ring.
For goodness sake, get past the mind block that says if an animal isn't in the show ring then it's no good!
For God's sake how many times?????????? |
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Edited by - templars on 16 Mar 2009 11:44:20 AM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 2:11:04 PM
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Right again Templars To attract back AHS Premium Scheme Owners/Breeders, there has to be an about turn of thinking. The way to best serve the need for "performance" Members is to provide an Event they WANT to take part in.....as previously suggested, An AHS organised Performance Competition with British National Performance Championship Awards, might be a starting point.
By so doing, the AHS is then catering to the needs of BOTH sides of the Membership. The Showing Exhibitors and the Performance Exhibitors. Such an event......has to be run for several years even if initially at a revenue loss.
Perhaps a position may be opened on the AHS Council for such a Representative, who has the passion and the will, to make such an Event happen ?? and is capable of attracting likewise minded volunteers to assist with the production and staging of same.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 16 Mar 2009 2:15:24 PM |
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Jude
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 6:51:33 PM
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Right, at the risk of being shot down in flames......The AHS is primarily a breed society and its main purpose is as a registration organisation. Certainly with the reduced size of Council there is simply not enough manpower to organise performance events for the small number of breeders/members who are interested in this aspect. Maybe it is time for those who are interested to start their own group on the lines of the regional groups, some of whom do organise performance events but even they have problems in getting sufficient entries to make them worthwhile . Many, many years ago we organised a one day event for the SE region at our farm; the entries were not huge but great fun was had by all who attended. However, the hours and hours of work required to build xc course, prepare dressage and sj arenas and the large number of "helpers" required. Maybe someone would like to take it on....... |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 7:54:50 PM
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Jude.....agree the Arab Horse Society is a Breed Society, for the purpose of registering breed stock, and all that entails, for which Breeders pay the required fees to cover the administration of said paperwork
One would assume that registration fees do cover the administrative costs involved, particularly with the introduction of computers. That being so, Breeders/Owners also have to pay an annual Membership Fee.
The Membership fees, provide funds, which then enable Breed Societies to stage Shows and Events as "Shop Windows" for the Horses recorded within the Stud Books and Registers of that Society.
The Arab Horse Society introduced the Premium Scheme, which is part of their Charitable Status and encouraged Breeders to train and take their horses forward for performance testing and grading. Performance Members have done just that!! which has taken the "Breed Shop Window" out into the wider World and flown the flag for their Breed Society and the AHS Premium Scheme!!
How has the AHS rewarded these Ambassadors of the Breed?? .....by stating exactly as you have Jude.....in other words, set up your own Event, if you want your Arab/Anglo/Part Bred to do other than just showing!!! If this "couldn`t care, negative attitude" persists, the AHS will one day, have a very limited Membership, as ever more, Events throughout the Country are seeing their Performance Competition disciplines, gaining ever increasing entries, whilst In-Hand Showing classes are very much on the decline!!
Why did the AHS introduce the Premium Performance Scheme in the First Place...perhaps someone can enlighten me ??
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 16 Mar 2009 8:00:50 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 10:19:36 PM
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We do not need a show
We do not need a one day event or anything else like it
Week in, week out, we are out there performing and proving our worth, our ability and our skill
All we ask is recognition that we exist.
We are judged by AHS judges to exacting criteria - and we have not been found wanting. We continue to go out there and despite the complete lack of acknowledgement from OWN BREED SOCIETY - we still take pride in, and shout about, our Arabian bloodlines.
When will the AHS get its Borg-like mentality away from showing!!!
If the AHS cannot publicise its own supreme animals then what is the purpose of the Premium Scheme????
Definition of Premium
A prize or award
An unusual or high value
Of superior quality or value
Those of us who have risen to the challenge and succeeded do not need to parade or show-piece our achievements within the narrow confines of an insular and bellybutton contemplative Premium Scheme.
We proved our worth - so now Premium Scheme and AHS - prove yours! All we want is for you to tell people that we exist, that you celebrate our achievements, that you take glory from our success and that you are proud of us.
Without that - then the Premium Scheme is a sham
And for the umpteenth time - STOP INTERPRETING OUR DESIRE FOR RECOGNITION AS A "WANT" TO PARADE OR PERFORM IN SHOWS OR MOCK ONE DAY EVENTS THAT MEAN ABSOLUTELY DIDDLY SQUAT
I'm really sick about people replying to this saying that we expect something for nothing. We don't - it cost us to get our Premiums. When the show horses win at Paris or Aachen or HOYS or wherever, there is a great noise and articles in this magazine and that magazine and everyone mentions the horses' or handlers' name in hushed whispers. But let a horse go out and have to work for years to get recognition in a performance discipline against other non Arab breeds (at a cost of thousands) and - hey, what the hell, the breeder/owner/rider of that horse is just a publicity hungry, free loading waste of space who needs to get off their backside and stop expecting the breed society (and pure bred showing people) to support them.
Oh my God!!!!!!!! |
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Edited by - templars on 16 Mar 2009 10:24:05 PM |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 07:55:30 AM
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Well said templars and Babs.
We have all got off our backsides and gone out into the big non arab world and proved that our arabs are as good as anything out there.At great expense to "US".
I support and sponsor a lot of classes over the period of a year, but i dont shout about it.
As someone who has shown purebred as well as my AA and PBA i never thought over the last 26 years of paying my membership that i was proping up the AA/PBA owners and breeders quite the opposite.
As you said the AHS set up the premium scheme, we all support the premium scheme and why shouldnt "OUR" breed society support us its members?
On Sat i took Ranger to the PSHP stallion parade to represent the premium scheme he was very well recieved by the non arab people not because of his araby beauty but because of his performance!
Last week he was in the dressage reports of the horse and hound and we made sure that reference was made to the premium scheme. The week before he had his picture and a small report in the sports horse pages and again reference to the premium scheme. Perhaps the AHS should pay me for advertising!
As i have said in earlier parts of this thread i will continue to carry on with what i am doing and take my AA and PBA horses forward to compete in the big wide world.Like Templars proud in the knowledge that they have got that important arab blood!
Nicky
www.romarnicstud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 08:13:52 AM
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Ditto Nicky
Like you, we have sponsored classes and sections - at AHS shows and at BE events. Like you, we always give credit to the Arabian blood in our horses so that when the commentator is speaking, the horses heritage is mentioned.
And as a pure bred breeder, it has never entered my head that I am sponsoring the Anglo and part bred classes at a show. We are in the unique position of having a
Pure bred
Premium
Performance
Mare
and I don't begrudge one penny of getting there and nor do I begrudge any element of my money that has been used whether it has been used to support young or old, pure or Anglo/Part, male or female - the important thing is to support Arabian breeding and bloodlines.
And by the way Nicky - well done and thank you for all the efforts you make in making sure the wider publications are aware of your horses's bloodlines. |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 09:30:03 AM
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Not a house divided by the AA/PB members, neither would we want it to be, just equality and the same support the Pure-breds get. The breed comes first, personalities second.
Well said nn, Babs and Templars.
Jean |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 10:06:08 AM
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Alistair
do you mean a house divided in terms of:
horses selected as Premiums compared to the non Premium horses?
show horses versus performance horses?
pures versus Anglos and part breds?
stallions versus mares?
the Premium Scheme versus its membership?
the AHS versus the world?
because that is what has come out of this thread time and time again and to me, that just about sums up what a total fiasco this is and how a "breed society" just pays lip service to its own premium animals
Jude, every breed society that I know of (horses, sheep, cattle) has a premium scheme that is used exactly as Nicky and Babs say - a shop window to attract people to that breed. I just can't understand why, when we have been selected we are ignored and condemned as being free loaders. |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 10:40:34 AM
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I mean there is a schism appearing over the issues and it can only result in a weaking of our Society which is more valuable working together than apart .Learn on all sides the damage done to our us by the Racing issue
Everyone got emotional and made some weak decisions
An asset of the Society passed to others without any compensation to the Charity.
Was there a better way of looking at the issue ? Probably.
So I make this point that there must be fair and constructive debate for all the members so a long lasting and profitable result is reached .
Cannot be acheived with high emotion and sectarian positions . |
    
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 10:53:58 AM
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I agree with you - the key point must be (and should always be) the preservation and promotion of Arabian bloodlines.
How that is done is a matter for debate and discussion and I'm sure lots of people will have different ideas - but the end goal should always be the preservation and promotion of the Arabian bloodlines.
The debate on here is the Premium Scheme, the creme de la creme, of those bloodlines is not celebrated or given full recognition. That's the division.
The whys and wherefores of how best to promote are the discussion points but until there is a common acceptance that the Premium Scheme has a vital role to play and that it is failing to fulfil that role, then you are right - we are a house divided. |
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Edited by - templars on 17 Mar 2009 10:54:26 AM |
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Jude
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:02:21 AM
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| Templars, perhaps you would enlighten us as to exactly what you want the AHS to do for you by way of "reward" for having a premium mare. As I see it, by your own efforts, you have produced an animal that has succeeded in open performance/competition and have been rewarded by the "award" of premium status i.e. one of the "elite ambassadors of the breed". Surely the award itself is a feather in your cap and you should be proud to be such a successful promotor of the arabian performance horse. On the one hand you say that the AHS has no interest in performance and then you state that you do not want or need them to put on any performance competitions. My family also had a premium mare and we certainly did not expect the AHS to put up her name in lights to acknowledge her achievements. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:26:14 AM
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Jude
If you read the whole thread then you will see what I would like:
1. for mares to be given the same recognition as stallions - ie if there is to be an advert in publications, offer the mares owners the opportunity to pay to be part of that ad (nothing for free)
2. when Premiums are granted, that the Premium Scheme and the AHS sends a confirmation letter to the owner - to date there are 5 premium horses that I know about that have not received official recognition
3. that the AHS mentions Premium animals with the same enthusiasm as the showing horses. Nearly all the articles in the AHS magazine are showing based. We have heard through responses to this thread that the Premium scheme wants feedback on performance results - the only problem with that is that they never told the Premium horse owners
4. that the Premium Scheme is accepted more widely within the AHS so that when you phone Windsor House, they have details and contact numbers rather than reply that they don't know and don't have anything to do with it.
5. that the web site is kept up to date and that the stallions who have gained their NaStA grading are listed as such (despite repeated contact from at least 2 pure bred stallion owners, their achievements are still not listed)
6. that there is a complete and comprehensive list of all premium horses (stallions and mares) as a reference available from Windsor House and the Premium Scheme web site
7. that there is some process where Premium horses can report their results and that these are then published and available on the Premium web site
I do not need the AHS to put on performance classes because we are already competing and I know the cost and effort that would be involved. What we need is a notice board or voice so that the AHS/Premium scheme shouts about the achievements of Arabian bloodline horses.
This isn't about me trying to promote my horse - and again, if you read the thread you will see that more than anything I have been trying to ensure the balance between mares and stallions and pures and Anglos/Part breds.
Just as a matter of interest - who was your Premium mare?? I guess hardly anyone on here will know who she is and isn't that a shame? I don't want anyone to put my horse's name in lights (and I find it quite insulting that you imply that) but what I do want is parity with other performance schemes and societies where horses that make the grade are listed and their performance records available. Isn't the Premium Scheme about selecting the best within a given category and to promote the bloodlines? If someone wants to breed a future premium horse, where would they go to get the track records? That's what I want - readily available information so that people can make choices and maybe people from outside the Arab world can look in and start choosing.
British eventing provides a download every year of top 250 mares and top 250 stallions from the previous year and top lifetime 250 mares and 250 stallions (based on their performance and the performance record of their offspring). There is then a list of all their competing progeny along with their records. As a breeder of a performance horses - that's what I look at. How can I make the same informed choices within the Arab world if the information is not available. How can we possibly expect non Arab people to make choices when it isn't widely published by the breed society that the Arabian breed is also a performance animal.
That's the promotion I want - not one individual horse. That's just silly.
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Edited by - templars on 17 Mar 2009 12:04:36 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:25:13 PM
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Jude....think what Templars and Others are trying to highlight is the shortcomings of the Premium Scheme, which IS part of the charitable status of the Arab Horse Society and there to help and support the Premium Performance Members in their endeavour to promote the Arabian breed as a capable competition horse, to the wider World
NO...Templars does not WANT her name up in lights,or further AHS Reward, nor does she NEED Performance Competitions organised by AHS for her to compete at!! She, and others like her, are already out there `proving`and `spreading the word` at the many `open` events
and competitions out there!!!
What She DOES hope for, is a Premium Scheme which is seen to be DOING what it was originally set up to do:
1) KEEPING up to date information available for interested members of the public looking to use a Premium Stallion
2) Regularly recording and updating Premium Scheme Members successes, within the NEWS PAGES of the P.S. Website, thus acknowledging the support and valued contribution Owners are making to the Premium Scheme
3)Include Premium Scheme `Features`in the AHS Yearbook
Is that really too much to ask of the Arab Horse Society???
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 17 Mar 2009 12:29:51 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:57:36 PM
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It seems that what is being requested is a lot of works in website maintainence and record keeping and that maybe there should be a dedicted person with an interest in the scheme that would undertake this.
As regards articles has anyone actually submitted anything that has susequently been dropped as I do know from a previous editor that they tried in vain to get articles etc for inclusion in the magazine.
As regards the issue of where I would go if I wanted to breed a premium horse, the same place as I would to breed a show horse, they should be one and the same, all capable of competing in whatever disciplines their owners chose. The fact that some people chose not to use their horses for performance is a matter of personal choice
Yvonne |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 1:19:46 PM
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Yes Yvonne but if you did want to breed a performance horse - where would you get the information.
I'm a pedigree freak and I love crossing Old English/Crabbet lines - that's my choice and there's lots of information. I've been breeding for over 20 years and have all the crosses I wanted based on the show reports, breeders reports, first hand experience and my own research.
A friend of mine wants to breed specifically for the show ring (yes - capable of being a ridden show and/or performance) but she is more concerned with type than I am. She too can get lots of information.
But where do I go to find out about the performance records. Dressage horse breeders don't just breed to any old bay or black - they research the pedigrees and performance. Same with the showjumpers. The British Equine Federation recognises that different bloodlines are useful for different disciplines that's why the youngstock classes are divided into potential dressage, showjumping and eventing sections.
I want to breed Arabian performance horses - as we are moving up the grades, I need larger horses and that means probably breeding Anglos or Part breds. When I come to chose a stallion from within my own breed society, where do I find the information. The Premium Scheme web site has some information - but not all. It has highlights (many outdated now) but where do I find the real performance record of the stallion (or dam line) and all their progeny? How do I make my choice? And I am experienced and seasoned at researching stallions, so how would I get my hands on this information if I were completely new to the Arab world.
If I had a thoroughbred mare and I wanted to breed a performance youngster, would my first choice be an Arabian? Probably not because there just isn't enough information published about performance Arabians from a recognised society. I may have come across one or two when I was out competing and I may have thought that it could make an interesting cross. And so, having seen Arabian bloodstock out performing, where do I go to get the information - the AHS website. But the AHS has a completely different web site from the Premium scheme and all I am faced with on the AHS web site is showing - beautiful and conformationally correct horses but still showing. Then I find my way to the Premium web site and there is a list of stallions (most not in their first flush of youth) and there is very limited performance information. Nothing about mares that are also contributors to performance breeds. So, instead of continuing on what seems to be a wild goose chase, I open Horse and Hound or Horse Deals and look at the non Arab stallions in there.
And as for there being a dedicated person to do the work - well forgive me but isn't that what the Premium Scheme Committee are supposed to address. Why does a breed society set up a Premium Scheme and not take repsonsibility for it?
You see this just confirms exactly what we have been saying - we'll go out and do the performing if only the AHS will do the recording!
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Edited by - templars on 17 Mar 2009 1:39:26 PM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 2:12:07 PM
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Personally if I was looking to breed an "AHS Show Horse" I would be choosing from the AHS Premium Stallions which had attained their Premium by either In Hand or Ridden Showing (obviously depending on wanting ridden or in hand).
However if, as I do, want to breed Competition Ponies (meaning potential FEI Dressage, SJ & Eventing) then I will only look at AHS Premium Stallions which have a proven record in these disciplines. This shows their breeding gives them the athleticism, ability, soundness and that they are trainable within their discipline. I also need to know the successes of their progeny. As the bloodlines become more selective due to their achievements, the Premium Stallions will probably be good "all rounders" but will excel in one discipline and their conformation will be different.
When I refer to conformation I do not mean "good" or "bad". Dressage requires uphill paces & conformation, very different from eventing.
I don't mean to exclude the Racing & Endurance disciplines from the Premium Scheme.
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Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 17 Mar 2009 2:20:03 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 2:18:48 PM
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That is it exactly Hazel - an eventing sire isn't the same as a dressage sire and they are both different from show jumping sire. Yes, they should all be able to produce capable all rounders but if you want to specialise, you choose accordingly. But how if the information isn't available.
You are so right!
It is naive to think that general athleticism and good looks is the same as specialist performance. |
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Edited by - templars on 17 Mar 2009 2:21:14 PM |
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