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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 5:34:24 PM
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Alistair.....can add further to Nicky`s reply regarding Brox Lady Arabella AASB. Her Dam is Wrenthorpe Rhapsody (Sired by our Anglo Premium Stallion Sunray Scelebrity)
Wrenthorpe Rhapsody`s Dam is our homebred Multi Supreme Champion Mare Sunray Sapphire, (BNC Sunray Seranata/Scindian Overlord) whom we sold to our dear Friend Sandra Turton (nee Hall) of the Wrenthorpe Stud.
(Further Proof, if it was needed of the importance of the MARE in the Breeding Equation)
For your added interest, we have a full brother of Wrenthorpe Rhapsody
He is my Husband`s 168cm Riding Horse, Double Res.BNC Wrenthorpe Romeo
 
Sapphire as a yearling and one of her four offspring by Scelebrity, Wrenthorpe Romeo.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 05 Mar 2009 5:47:47 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 10:32:58 PM
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OK,let's set the record straight:
I believe in the importance of the Arab in adding quality and value to performance animals
I support a Premium Scheme as being la creme de la creme of the breed (whatever that breed is)
I am totally committed to promoting the mare as being as important as the sire and I believe the mare should be given equal prominance and recognition
I believe in the Arab horse whatever the gender and whether it is pure, Anglo or part bred
I support the AHS but I do not do so blindly
What I have witnessed is:
a breed society that does have a Premium scheme
a breed society that is distanced from its Premium scheme (evidenced by i) Windsor House not having up to date details and ii) different web sites)
a Premium Scheme that concentrates on promoting its stallions (I believe at a cost to the stallion owner)and as this thread has evidenced time and time again, simply cannot get its head around the contribution of the mare. Further evidence is provided by the fact that mares are not sent details of how to participate in the general Premium promotion nor given the opportunity to take part in AHS advertisements. And the mares that have won premiums don't even get a mention on the web site - how many? who are they?
a Premium Scheme that does little to promote the performance elements of the breed (evidenced by the complete lack of knowledge from the Scheme about details of Premium stock or their offspring)
dedicated breeders/owners/riders who have spent their life dedicated to their bloodlines and their belief in the Arabian breed (evidenced by their individual postings on here and their own track records)
confused and angry breeders/owners/riders because their views and expertise are not taken into account when fundamental issues to the very nature of the breed are being discussed
a breed society that has not provided full performance details to the National Equine Database - the national source of information, resulting in incomplete and inaccurate records for many Arabian horses (evidenced by the fact that Taragun, WAHO Horse of the Year and with a good BE record is not listed as such, nor listed as my horse and neither are any of my home bred third generation stock who may not yet have a performance record but who are internationally qualified). If the AHS can't take the National database seriously, what hope is there for promoting the Arab as a performance breed.
Today I have been requested to deal with my grievances with the AHS in private. I state again, I personally do not have any grievances. I have catalogued what happened in my case simply to illustrate my personal feelings of the failing of the Premium scheme as a whole. I am not upset at the way I have been treated but it is symptomatic of the way the Premium Scheme is run.
I will not shut up about something that is my life's passion. I have my beliefs - they may differ from those of the Premium Scheme and the AHS (I dare say they differ from a lot of people's). But they are my beliefs and I am entitled to them.
If someone can present a reasoned response/argument as to why they are wrong, then I am quite happy to listen and possibly modify my views if I think I am wrong. I am not afraid to say I am wrong but until someone shows me a reason to change, then my beliefs will remain.
And to really put the cat amongst the pigeons (which I'm happy to do seeing as I am so out of favour!)
why did none of the stallion owners who have been equally critical of the premium scheme, not receive requests to shut up and lodge their feelings in private with the AHS? Why was it just the mare owner who was asked to deal behind closed doors? Just look at the earlier postings on this thread (pages 1-3). I'm not the only person who has made constructively critical observations - others have recited their personal experiences but not been singled out to be asked to shut up. Why me? What did I do so wrong? I'm not the first person who did not receive official notification (just read the earlier thread) but apparently because I agreed and said the same had happened to me, I'm in the wrong! Oh, I forgot - it's because I own a mare!!!!!!!
why is the AHS even discussing the change to the Anglo and Part Bred registers? In the UK, the Anglo has always been recognised as a separate breed of impeccable purity. The Part bred likewise, has been defined. Why do Part bred breeders want to adopt the label of "Anglo" unless they think the part bred label represents a deficiency of some sort. Surely by trying to call everything Anglo, the part bred breeders are admitting that they feel like second class and not quite as good as the Anglos. And that too is sad because the part bred is a valuable strain and can represent the marriage of different bloodlines so why even try and pretend it's something else. Why not be proud of the animals that are part bred?
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Edited by - templars on 05 Mar 2009 11:43:04 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 11:05:45 PM
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And another thing (whilst I really am the devil!!)
I've just looked at the Premium website and made another couple of observations:
1. the dates for the website are 2003/2004
2. there are no mares listed at all
3. the average age of a Premium stallion is: 19.5 years (for pure bred the average is 20.5, for Anglos the average is 21 and for part breds the average is 12) If the Premium scheme is working so well, why are there no younger stallions?
4. only 6 of 16 pure bred stallions are NASTA tested but nearly all the Anglos and part breds are NASTA tested - what does this say about performance in the pure bred Arabian?
Where are the mares? Where is the promotion to encourage younger animals to be put forward? Where is the pride? (or should I hang my head in shame and only ask that behind closed doors as well?)
I was told today that the Premium scheme is desperate for updates about the Premium horses and their offspring and that sadly, very little is forthcoming. When a Premium horse receives a World Wide trophy at the National show can that be classed as the owner not providing information to the Premium scheme? It's on the WAHO site, I and lots of people posted it on this site - I didn't receive a personal condemnation for shouting that a pure bred mare could perform! So, is it true that I can be used when I'm saying good things but I must shut up when I'm making constructive criticisms?
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Edited by - templars on 05 Mar 2009 11:09:20 PM |
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Avonbrook
Silver Member
287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 08:46:39 AM
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Just to correct you Templars on your totally understandable error regarding purebred NaStA tested stallions. The two pure-breds who passed the performance test last year are not marked on the premium scheme stallion list as being NaStA tested. I have asked for this to be corrected for both. They are 8 and 13 years respectively. If you look at the NaStA website you will see how large a gap there was until last year in purebred stallions being put forward.
Rowena |
  
www.avonbrookstud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:11:28 AM
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Thank you Rowena
Doesn't this just confirm what I've said though - that the performance horse is not given the credit it deserves .
For two more pure bred stallions to pass the NaStA testing is wonderful news and something that should be promoted at the highest level. If the AHS Premium web site can't take pride in its own Premium stallions then who else will? (other than the breeder/owner/rider who is doing their level best anyway)
From the ages you have given, I'm guessing that the two stallions are:
Marcus Aurelius
Ibn Ajwaad
Massive, massive congratulations to all those involved with the two stallions.
Shame on you AHS and Premium Scheme for not letting us pure bred breeders know that new pure bred performance blood has entered the Premium Scheme
I'm sorry but this is exactly the point that I've been trying to make. And if I had said this privately, then it would not have come to public attention that we are blessed with these talented young stallions |
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Edited by - templars on 06 Mar 2009 10:11:57 AM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:25:31 AM
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These are taken directly from the web site:
Latest Achievements: Last Revised 05 October 2005
Latest Achivements Roundup: 2003, 2004
Annual Awards: E&OE. Last Revised 27 July 2003
Information about NaStA: March 2005 This year's NaStA Performance Testing is taking place on 17/18 August (Tue-Wed) at Milton Keynes Eventing Centre.(In the menu click on 'Testing 2005' for further details) - incidentally, there is no menu item about Testing 2005
Premium mare information: Last Revised 08 October 2004
First page on the web: Last Revised 10 May 2003
Results of Google search: Arab Horse Society Premium SchemeLast Revised 10 May 2003.
www.ahs-premium.org.uk/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
Couple this with the fact that at least 2 premium animals have not received official notification of their Premiums status and the fact that 2 stallions have not had their performance achievements noted - and then tell me the Premium Scheme takes things seriously and I should deal with my criticisms in private!
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:51:32 AM
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Well said Templars.
I am of the opinion that too much goes on behind closed doors. This is our Society after all and without the support of members it would cease to exist. It is because the membership doesn't know what is happening that grave mistakes are made and this topic has brought to light some grievances that we were previously unaware of. Surely this is the whole point of a discussion. We are, of course, not going to agree on all aspects of the thread or there would be no value to it. The members must be heard and their comments taken into account as they are the 'experts', having been there and done that and the less experienced committee members are only there to carry out their job and do the administration. They are not the hierarchy, they are servants of the Society and should be welcoming all thoughts good and bad. Certainly it would be better to discuss this in an 'AHS members only environment' but sadly there is no provision for a discussion forum on the AHS site. They bring trouble on themselves by not thinking anything through properly.
This has been a very enlightening thread and I am sure that we are now more aware of the performance capabilities of these arab-bred horses than we have been for a long, long time, which means it has served a purpose. Long may it carry on, keep us informed.
Having said all this I have a great loyalty to the Society and have done for many years. I just hate to see it not living up to the standards of yesteryear.
Jean
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:54:28 AM
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Hoorah Hoorah Hoorah For Templars, for saying it as it is  
The Premium Scheme Sub Committee, should not be rebuking those that are passionate about the Performance Arabian, who express their disappointment, and should be directing their efforts to making the Premium Scheme WORK. It takes two sides...
Breeders/Owner/Riders are out there doing their utmost to fly the flag. The Premium Scheme Committee should be collating all this info
and if only on a monthly basis...........keep the Premium Scheme Website up to date. (last overhauled 2003/2004) what a waste of time is that!!!!!
Why didn`t the Premium Scheme Committee INSIST on 2008 Premium Scheme News, Pics, Results of NaSta Testing etc etc., be printed in the Arab Yearbook???? How disappointing for all those who having made the effort and proved their performance Arabians, to be given the feeble excuse " The Premium Scheme had not been INVITED to offer a write up for inclusion in the 2008 AHS Yearbook"
Shame on you Premium Scheme Committee and AHS Council Members!!!!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 11:34:45 AM
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Many of us who have posted on here have performance animals and as part of training/producing those animals we may hit set backs and "disagreements". We see ourselves as a partnership, and we work through them. We don't shut the door and walk away. We don't condemn our horse. We accept our weaknesses, we accept the horse's weaknesses and we work together. We certainly don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Now is the time for us to work through what has happened.
I too have shown steadfast loyalty to the AHS. I am proud of that my mare is an AHS Premium mare. The pride and love of other breeder/owner/riders just shines through every single posting on here. Now is the time to capture that devotion and get better and improve - not the reputation of an individual or a single horse but the breed.
Take our comments on board - use our experience. We don't want committee roles but just want a voice and a notice board in a prestigious place for us to post our photos and updates - a place where people from all over the world will go to see what UK bred performance Arabians are doing. The Premium Scheme web site should be the first place people think of going and they should do so in the confidence that it's up to date and takes pride in its members.
Let us share our pride and achievements. Join with us. I've been absolutely amazed at what has been posted on here and the achievements of the horses - something I would never have found out about before.
If the Premium Scheme will work with those who are flying the flag, just think what we can achieve! In that case, the result would definitely be greater than the sum of the parts!! |
www.eviepeel.com |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 11:36:58 AM
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Wow!
In my experience in PR/Marketing one should remember that every editor of all magazine hasone great fear-the blank white page - so if you collectively inundated the Society with lots of stories ,reports ,anecdotes and beautiful pics, they will be published
Likewise all Equine publications .
Do not give up but keep on keeping on and you will be in a far better position this time next year.
Also ,support local and Regional shows .
Take HOCON in June
Great show ,nice facilities at Towerlands etc so turn up in numbers which is the eqivalent of voting with your feet in support of the AHS and Premium stock The photos will be sent to H&H etc
and it is now re-organised to provide a whole day for the ridden classes
So how about it
Prove the value of the work you have done and show the world your great stock
My weakness is Ridden mares,the combination of beauty and bravado is very pleasing .
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blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 12:08:06 PM
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Thanks for that Alistair........but please tell me, How are Premium Stock Breeders going to support regional shows when there do not exist any classes for Premium Stock, and open classes offer no recognition or special award if an exhibit IS a premium youngster.
Perhaps the AHS should run a Show specifically aimed at the Arabian Performance Horse, holding classes, ie dressage, show jumping working hunter. Such classes may be seen as a training ground to perhaps then encourage Owners to take forward their Horses for NaSta testing and maybe go on to do bigger things 
Just a suggestion, as I feel the AHS is still lacking in catering for Members who choose to "perform" with their horses and most regional shows or the National, do not cater for same.
May well take a few years for such a show to establish.........but if you don`t try, you cant succeed!!!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 06 Mar 2009 12:42:56 PM |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 12:17:09 PM
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Re-instate the Performance Show as held at Wilton House in the past great fun for all standards.
Jean |
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Edited by - weirton on 06 Mar 2009 12:20:00 PM |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 12:19:50 PM
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This thread has been, and hopefully will continue to be, very interesting and a total learning curve for many. I for one had no idea of the total mis-handling of the premium scheme, which of course should be at the forefront of any breeding society. As it stands, it is a disaster. I can only apologise as a life member of the AHS for Templars disgraceful treatment. You have every right to feel aggrieved.
Alistair, I can only speak from personal experience, that the powers that be have very often been informed of performance horses and their achievements. There has been very little interest shown, and for a long time no one on council has been at all interested. And no, Alistair, telling people to send in the information on their wonderful horses does not guarantee inclusion in the magazine whatsoever.
No one has given up, so why would any one be in a better position next year? Some of us have been fighting a particular subject for fifteen years, and only now are we just beginning to get things slightly moving. It's not going at a great gallop, more a collected stroll!
Ask yourself a question, does the society keep any show reports. The only time that they have been made aware of HOYS/RIHS results for Anglo and Part breds is when my sister Lyn has told them. Of course they should be up on their web site - one can only hope that the premium scheme committee have been following this thread, and will take note of it, and make the necessary changes.
Tell me, someone, what have council members that were voted on last year as representing "the members voice" done?
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 12:23:00 PM
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Absolutely spot on Jean, a wonderful event and I don't know of anyone who didn't enjoy it. Let's reinstate it, as I'm only round the corner now.  |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 12:23:49 PM
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I was wondering how to ask that politely too Sue. (The last question that is)
Jean
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 1:03:46 PM
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With all the aforesaid....I now ask the Premium Scheme Committee and AHS Council Members to make a concerted effort, and set about `DOING` what they were chosen to represent, LISTEN to the Members AND TAKE
THE NECESSARY ACTION.
We are all fed up of the snails pace in which any amendment or change takes effect!! As SueN says "fifteen years" for one single matter and
still not resolved  Ludicrous!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 06 Mar 2009 1:09:15 PM |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 1:36:35 PM
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There is a perfomance based show for arabs, PBA, and Anglos on the 20th June at Warwickshire college.
It has showjumping, sports horse, mini ODE and Dressage.
Last year two of the latest premium stallions went (Ibn Ajwaad and Romarnic Ranger).
What it was short of last year was arabs!
It seems a shame not to support a show that we are all saying we want!
The venue is good, prizes are good and if you need it there is stabling.
Nicky
www.romarnicstud.co.uk |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 2:02:36 PM
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Yes Nicky, know of the Show. However, and I might get my head bitten off for this comment, but feel if it was named The Arabian Sport Horse,it may well attract more Arab competitors!! I could be wrong of course.....but perhaps some owners may be put off by thinking "professional eventers", would be competing against them.
Are there classes for Novices?? or are all classes Open. It may be a good idea to post the 2009 schedule Link on this thread.
Whilst I appreciate there are many Arabian/Anglo/PBA horses out there, capable of performing against the best, to encourage Competitors new to proving performance, they do not want to feel intimidated by the "big guns"
For interest, are we talking Pure Arab numbers lacking or generalising? Fully in favour of any event which will encourage
promoting Arabian Sport Horses
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 2:41:02 PM
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Have just googled the Arab-Trakehner 2008 Event. Nicky, do all horses competing, have to be TBF or Pure/Anglo/PBA registered? Also, note in the results, most were TBF exhibits,and pleased you made note of your Arab connections. Well done for winning the Overall Accolade.
Hope the Show will get the support it needs
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 2:55:31 PM
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Babs
I think that they do have to be registered with the relevant stud book.
We went last year to support it and had a really good day.
It just needed more arabs, AA,PBA horse and ponys to be there.
Nothing is to big and for us it was a great way of taking a baby horse out and letting him see all the different things.
Highpoints for both the seniors and the juniors the juniors being won by a PBA.
Ranger has a foot in both camps so we did really well winning a rug as well as the highpoints money.
Amy had hoped to take her 4yr old PBA this year but we had to put him to sleep a couple of weeks ago but we might let her have a go on Ranger instead!
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 4:19:09 PM
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As an ordinary member of the Society I am concerned that we may have a re-run of a situtation like racing where the split resulted in a loss of revenue and members and a weakening of the Society
If there is a large body of unhappy owners who feel disenfranchised it will lead to yet another split with a negative affect on the Society .
SO what constructive things must be done to bring as many owners of Arab descendants back into the fold ?
I believe that it is an important time in the history of the Society and it is encumbent on all of us to make it better
Having a genuine gripe is sortable but if the general sentiment is wrong then it is much harder |
blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 6:34:23 PM
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How I see it Alistair, there will always be two halves in the Membership...The Breeding/Showing Members and the `Performance` Members. Therefore each needs their particular requirement catered for, in order to create Membership Harmony and encourage, more Arab owners, to join and support the society.
Showing/Breeding Members are well catered for. Racing Members are also well provided for, as is Endurance.....the shortfall lies in the seemingly disinterested AHS Council for the Performance Members,who are out there Flying the flag in the ultimate competition discipline,
Eventing.....the true test of the performance horse!!!
I feel that introducing perhaps two annual Events(one, on 3rd day at AHS Nationals)and provide classes for Dressage, Show Jumping & Working Hunter, which will give experience of the three elements of Eventing. Section Winners could be Awarded BNC status and could then compete for the Supreme BNC if competed in all three elements.
Premium Scheme "Special" Rosettes could be awarded to highest placed Premium Bred Horses in each Class. Also feel entries should be invited from None Members provided their horse is registered with the AHS, none Members, paying a higher entry fee.
The second event, later in the Autumn, could be run at a Novice Horse Trials Venue, and run along the lines of a proper one day event and named Arab Horse Society One Day Event.
All sounds ambitious I know and demanding on the AHS finances, but it is the way forward in MO if the AHS is to attract further Membership. The AHS has got to offer the incentives which other Breed Societies provide for their Members as all are equal and deserve full support,
whichever avenue they choose to take their Arabian Horses.
The final service would be to provide Members with a Magazine specifically aimed at the Arabian Sporthorse and including all matters concerning the Premium Scheme
Sunray Anglo Arabian Stud would be very happy to provide a Championship Trophy.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 06 Mar 2009 9:55:33 PM |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 8:51:24 PM
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Babs. excuse me but are you wearing your glasses, because the event is Sport Arabian, Trakehner Performance Event. and in the foreword explains that the Trekehner breed for that is what it is, are proud to celebrate their Arabian conections.We will be contacting all other breed societies with an invitation for their documented PBA's to join us.
Only those registered with the AHS will be entitled to take part in the high points championships. |
   
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 9:33:14 PM
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Yes......have the specs firmly perched on my nose and yes, I clearly understand the representation of the Show, and will watch with interest to see if the format, will encourage AHS Members to compete.
However, my gripe with the AHS is THEY owe it to Members to introduce a Performance Event, specifically for Pure Part and Anglo Arabs, as they do for Breeding/Showing Members. We all pay the same Membership Fee, so should be equally entitled.
As Weirton states, AHS did fund a Performance Show in the bygone years, why can this not be re-instated???
More and more `performance` is becoming a necessity,as the cost of owning equines and competing,continues to spiral upwards. Potential buyers are now looking to purchase an all round Competition horse as the majority simply cannot afford to keep several horses, each specifically aimed at one discipline!
The AHS needs to address the inbalance and introduce more Events specifically aimed at the Ridden Performance Arabians.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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