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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 09:15:37 AM
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Stamps foot in temper and frustration 
Why does this thread keep veering off on one topic only:
first it's about Premiums then it goes into the definition of Part Bred and Anglo
then it's about promotion of stallions only
then it goes on about Performance
back to Premiums
then back to the exclusion of mares as recognised Premium stock
back to definitions
back to Premiums (this time including mares and mentioning performance)but now concentrating on Part Bred and Anglo
Take the blasted blinkers off:
Premium = quality capable of reproducing itself = stallions AND mares = Pure, Part Bred and Anglo = evidenced by either being a performance animal or producing performance animals
For now, we're just going to get on with doing what we do - eventing and getting recognition out in the wider world whilst the AHS struggles to understand what a performance animal is and how best to define the breed it has created over a couple of hundred years. When it stops contemplating it's navel, it may realise that some of us are actually out there trying to do our bit to fly the flag.
We don't need an AHS Premium for our horses to prove that they're good and I'm sorry but when people come up to congratulate us at events, I don't say "Oh wait a minute, let me get her passport to show you the little stamp I've got to show just how good the AHS think she is". I smile, say thanks, say how proud we are that she's Arabian - and go on and do it all over again.
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 09:17:43 AM
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thanks for the answers
To my simple mind if my horse has arab blood I should be showing it at an Arab show
The combined spectacle would be a great marketing tool
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blue moon |
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Micky
Silver Member
308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 10:41:46 AM
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Templers,
You've got it in one. Well done for your expert way of writing in down as it is. It is only the AHS that does not know who the animals are, or what they are doing.
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jas
Junior Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 10:45:59 AM
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I have been reading this thread with great interest, and enjoy the input from a few knowledgeable people.
Alistair,
A question: "The combined spectacle would be a great marketing tool". What on earth do you mean? For whom would this be a good marketing tool? |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 10:59:27 AM
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Templars...echo Micky`s comments 
Alistair.......why do you continue to ignore the fact that this thread is about the PREMIUM SCHEME, NOT ABOUT THE SUBJECT ON WHICH THE WORKING PARTY IS INVOLVED WITH...AND NOT ABOUT THE AHS NATIONALS OR AHS GROUP SHOWS...full stop!!!!!!!!
Would appreciate if you cannot, or are not interested in making
a valid contribution, please leave those that are passionate about this subject, to express the importance of our Pure/Anglo and PBA performance horses, to debate this topic.
Apologies.......Rant over 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 28 Feb 2009 12:16:30 PM |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 11:09:40 AM
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This is an open forum and as such does lurch about some what, we can either split the thread or just see where it takes us. Arab Shows are for Arabs, Anglos and Partbreds and are judged by AHS panel judges, I hasten to add there is nothing wrong with that, but as we know the show Arab in general tends to be a little different to the more traditional variety.
HAZEL has mentioned what I would like to refer to as open showing if I may, and offers a variety of classes in which to show our Arabs, AA and PBS enabling us to reach a far greater no of the equine public, county shows come to mind,but if these classes are to succeed they must be supported, and what better way to educate our youngstock and fly the flag at the same time.
TEMPLARS, Taragun is a premium mare and as such will have the right to use the premium scheme logo so why not lead the way for others to follow and support the scheme at the same time.
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jas
Junior Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 12:08:34 PM
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Denmoor,
Apart from a stamp, what else does a premium mare receive? Is she allowed the freedom of choice as to the stallion used. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 12:11:37 PM
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The AHS Premium Scheme,for the sake of discussion..has two halves
the Dedicated Breeders, who produce Pure/Part and Anglo Arabs, who have the necessary performance bloodlines, incorporated into a foal, having correct conformation action, and temperament to be capable of competing at whatever level or discipline the riders are capable of taking them, be it Showing,Dressage, Endurance, BSJA, or the ultimate test, Eventing, all equally important.
The other half are the Dedicated Performance Riders, out there, flying the flag,competing on these horses, and proud to advertise the Arabian influence. The knowledgeable and capable Riders, are of equal importance within the Premium Scheme as the Breeders, each needing the other to achieve their goal......an Arabian Competition Horse of Excellence, be it Pure Anglo or Part Bred Arab!!
The Premium Scheme needs to be geared so that Both the Breeders and Riders, are equally recognised for their efforts, both flying the flag for their chosen input in the equation.
It seems both sides are unhappy with the current working of the Premium Scheme and the incentives therin and this thread at least gives an oportunity for those involved to express their opinions which may lead towards a satisfactory conclusion.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 28 Feb 2009 12:21:21 PM |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 1:07:07 PM
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So what would a satisfactory conclusion look like?
It would be great if the AHS could be less introspective with less emphasis on showing per se and raise the profile of the Premium Scheme. Currently people seem surprised when an Arab competes on an equal basis with other performance horses - that's not right. The PS should be promoting the lines that demonstrate that the Arab and its part bred and Anglo relatives really can perform. Historically the Arab was so prized for its soundness, speed, bravery (and oh yes Arabs can jump, hunt and be driven too!). It is the basis of the ultimate performance horse the English Thoroughbred - why is the greater horse world so suprised when they perform well now? There wasn't a PS when Arabs were being introduced to almost every native and cross breed programme in this country but the principles were being laid down then. Why has the AHS not now got that will to really promote the Premium bred horses and demonstrate their successes - and say to breeders ' you too can have a horse like these'? I only now have pure breds but I am so proud that my fillies are the granddaughters of the Premium Stallion, Djammal. I know it gives a stamp of quality and ability. 
The PS needs a clear commitment and energy behind that commitment to raising the profile of the scheme so that breeders can take advantage of these superb lines and of the premiums.
It needs a programme of development by the AHS so that people everywhere can see what it means to the breed - proven abilty to pass on the truly valued attributes. - Hooray!!! |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 3:12:15 PM
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Exactly!
As usual Treasure you are better at words than me .
I see the Premium scheme this way.
The membership funds sudsidise the scheme .
It is legitimate for any member to look at it and see if any improvements can be made.
What is very clear to me from reading is that there have been outstanding examples of Pure-bred horses passing on great quality to succeeding generations whether they are AA or PBA
We already know that the Trakener is regularly rebred to pur breds to strengthen the line and all to the good .
What could be a major part of the Arab Horse Soc and the future growth may well lie in strengthening the whole of Arab breeding and the reputation of 1) Pure-breds 2)Decendants by way of co-operation and cohesion of objectives.
As has been illustrated on this thread there are too many disparate sections pulling against each other instead of together .
The best "marketing tool " is the flesh and blood horse which has resulted from breeding to Arab blood
Simple presentation :for example
This is the Premium Mare /Stallion and this is the progeny as an
event at county shows or local shows
Is it really fair to critise the AHS,who subsidise the Premium scheme and then are expected to further promote the horses as well ?
I would like to see the idea of adding Arab blood more widely accepted ,not least to generate work and revenue for stallion owners
in general .
Non Premium stallions would still do a good job.
There has been a key point made about why premium stock is not being shown i.e. lack of judges and this should be examined by the AHS as quite crucial to creating a more collective body. |
blue moon |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:09:33 PM
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How many Mares were put forward for the Premium Scheme last year at the National Show as advertised on the PS website?
Who were the Evaluators?
What did the Evaluation entail?
The AHS Judges seem to be used for the In hand and Ridden Showing Premiums, and any performance Premiums look as if they rely on the Sport/Performance Discipline results. The way I read the criteria it is easier to attain a "Showing" premium than a "Performance" one - am I right?
I trust I haven't missed the answer to the above on the previous 9 pages, sorry if I have. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:32:26 PM
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Denise
I'm really insulted by that - I have always supported the Premium scheme and have done everything in my power to promote the Arab and its breeding. The only reason I didn't attend the Arab Trakhener event last year was because we were out competing at an event.
And as for Taragun being a Premium mare - I would love to lead the way - IF ONLY THE AHS TOLD ME SHE WAS A PREMIUM - THEY NEVER HAVE - SPORTS HORSE GB TOLD ME
And I agree totally with Hazel - who was forward for the mare premium at the Nationals? Who were the judges? Why, when we we had just got the WAHO Horse of the Year, were we forgotten when it came to the Premium so that we had to go to a Sport Horse GB grading and that was only after I'd phoned and phoned and literally begged to be put forward for the Premium scheme? On the one hand I was receiving phone calls from AHS Committee members telling me how wonderful Taragun was and yet on the other, the Premium scheme was seen as so low key by other Committee members that they just didn't seen the point in Taragun being awarded it. As one person said "you've got the WAHO award, why would you want a Premium" So don't tell me I don't take pride in our hard won premium when the AHS Committee itself don't see the value of it. We were damned proud to have been awarded it (and I repeat again, IF ONLY someone had told us officially. And yes, why does it seem easier to get a Premium for a showing animal than it does performance?
I can't shout about Taragun being a Premium mare if I haven't received official notification can I? - that would be inappropriate! What I can shout about is that she's pure Arabian and in the Head Stud Book of Sports Horse GB (a very rare accolade for any horse let alone a little Arabian mare)
For God's sake, when will the AHS give the Premium animals a) the recognition they deserve and b) the publicity they deserve so that those of who who totally believe in Arabian bloodlines can promote the horses with the backing of our breed society - not have to say - she's a Premium but they haven't bothered to let me know!!!! Yeah - right!?!?!?!?!?
As things stand, the Premium scheme is a complete farce. I've shown my commitment and dedication to the Arabian as a Premium animal. I would love to support the Premium scheme - but tell me Denise - who, what, where and when? It's such a non entity and closed shop. The Premium scheme isn't even part of the main AHS web site for goodness sake. If you phone Windsor House, they don't have any details about the Premium scheme!
I also have Cleveland Bays and my young stallion was the youngest in the history of the breed society to be awarded Premium status at the age of 4 - and he retained it every year he was put forward for it. I understand Premium schemes, I support them when there is something to support but when all there is, is a totally amorphous mass of confusion and contradiction then how the hell am I supposed to support that? |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:49:10 PM
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Alister
As the proud owner of two premium stallions and a premium mare i try my best to wave the flag for both the arab and the premium scheme.
You say "is it fair to criticises the AHS who subsidies the scheme and expect them to promote the horses as well"
But as a stallion owner i am expected to pay each year for advertising and promotion of my horses.(please look at the beginning of the thread!)
I feel that as the AHS have had my money for the last ? years and they should promote the premium scheme!
Why not! They set it up in the first place!
All we get for our money each year, as i see it ,is the odd advert in the equine press and a stand at Malvern.
My stallions are graded with other breed societies and i get far better value for money from them, and much more promotion.
My premium mare just gets on with producing her foals!She doesn't want any promotion just recognition!
Nicky
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:13:12 PM
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Nicky
That is so right and so spot on. As breeders/owners/riders we are doing everything we can to promote the breeding but without the backing of our breed society then all we are is a bunch of individuals.
We need the AHS to be there and to support us.
As exactly as you say - as a mare owner, all I want is recognition. If I'm ever lucky enough to have one of my stallions accepted (and I dearly would love to in the future), then I too would want assistance with the promotion side of things.
With my Cleveland Bay stallion, the stallions are proposed on an annual basis and every year only 12 are selected from around the world after being examined by 2 stallion inspectors. We pay for entry to the scheme and there is no guarantee that a stallion will get the premium. But once he has, then all the advertising is free and a sum is received for every pure bred foal registered by that stallion (the restriction to pure bred foals is only because of the rare breed status). But the key thing is that every single person who runs a colt on, strives for acceptance into the Premium scheme - it's the whole raison d'etre for having a stallion - to prove you have a good horse. It's in the culture of the society - the Premium class in April is the highlight of the year.
The AHS Premium scheme on the other hand, is run as a side show (for a long time, I didn't even think it was part of the AHS). And I totally support the stallion owners that they should get promotion as part of the scheme - my only request would be that mares also be offered the same promotion on the same basis (ie if it means paying for ads, then that's fine).
We know Arab bloodlines can perform. We know Arab bloodlines can breed performance horses. Why the, can our breed society not accept that and help us. |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:17:55 PM
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Oh well said.
It's about time that someone took the premium scheme by the ears, and shook it severely, and that includes people on the committee. Maybe if they got up and opened the window, they would actually see what is happening in the big outside world.
I know that every year Arabian Lines have been happy to advertise the premium scheme, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, and very few people have ever taken up the opportunity. Arabian Lines does at least support the Anglo and part breds to their best, and I'm sure they would put details of the premium winners on the site once again, if given the information. |
Edited by - SueN on 28 Feb 2009 5:19:07 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:31:43 PM
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Same here Nicky, Have to pay, if we want a`mention` slot for
our PS Stallion in the `once` a so many year Premium Scheme advert. Our Premium Mare as yours, carries on breeding her top class foals, with absolutely no recognition whatsoever!! What do I get when I post pics of just one of her proven performance offspring, I am asked by a Premium Scheme official, what HE had to do with the Premium Scheme!!
Templars I can feel your rage and totally understand the reason for your anger, when Taragun and your Daughter have been treated so flippantly, by the AHS and Premium Scheme Committees.
How dare they disrespect what your Daughter and Taragun have achieved in flying the flag and promoting the Pure Arab as a superlative Arabian Sport Horse. Premium Performance Mare
Babs
www.SunrayAngloAeabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 28 Feb 2009 6:42:44 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 6:09:05 PM
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If Mares or Stallions have not had a ridden career, they must themselves have a high qualification in Handas a four year old or over, at designated Major Shows, AND have at least two successful progeny, who have fulfilled the In hand and Ridden Criteria in a variety of performance disciplines at affiliated level, before they are awarded Premium Status
With regard to the introduction of Mares attending a designated venue to be assessed and graded....I have several times asked what this entails and what are the benefits for mares presenting themselves at same. still waiting!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 28 Feb 2009 7:17:15 PM |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 7:07:38 PM
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| Templars, Might I suggest, that an official written complaint to the AHS would be more appropriate than posting on an open forum. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 7:32:56 PM
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I don't have a complaint because I don't give a damn - I said that earlier in this thread.
I'm disappointed at what has happened and having turned my back on the AHS and all it entails, I still have a passionate interest in the Arabian breed as a performance animal. As I've said, my youngstock will not be registered with the AHS but that doesn't mean they are not Arabian and nothing will prevent me from flying the flag for the Arabian horse - we can gain Premiums and recognition from other performance bodies and our track record will speak for itself. But I certainly don't have a complaint. I have made valid observations as someone who has tried but failed. C'est la vie but I know who will lose out when our Arabian bred horses start hitting the news!
We were told explicityly by a Committee member - "We are using you because you are out there promoting the Arab as a true all rounder. I'm so sorry that we are using you and I hope you don't mind but you are promoting the pure bred".
I don't mind being used if it furthers the breed but having been put fairly and squarely in that role, I reserve the right to say what I think. And I see little use in saying it in private to the very people who acknowledge they are using me because they don't know how else to promote the pure bred performance horse. I'm not so parochial - I believe all Arabian blood is precious. I don't mind at not getting the recognition (God knows we get it elsewhere so we don't need it from the AHS) but it is a shame that this is the case. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 8:45:36 PM
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Templars......good on you, if we have not got a headache from all the ....perhaps it is time for a smile.
Asked our old boy as he has been a Premium Stallion for many years, what he thought, his reply:
YEAH YEAH YEAH, WHATEVER!!
Babs
www.SunrayAgloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 9:07:39 PM
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that shows why he's a Premium - impeccable breeding, good performance, handsome, a proven performance sire ...... and superb judgement!!!! A true Premium!!!
On a much lighter note - thanks for everyone on this thread we've become aware of superb stallions that we will DEFINITELY be using in the future and until this, we didn't have an all round picture of their offspring's achievements.
THANK YOU - and definitely no complaints about the boys who've shown their hoof on here!!!! |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 08:44:47 AM
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I have just re read the thread-I need to get a life!
Two things are clear
There is a vast reservoir of energy,committment and passion out there which is not being included by the AHS,not to mention the fanastic potential for revenue to the Society.
If owners of horses of Arab blood register elsewhere they cannot expect the support they wish .Some of the dis;ocation is caused by owners not supporting the Society and working as a body to promote as a whole .
My guess is there are more descendants of Arab blood than there are Pure-breds which means a potential Society of maybe twice the size it is now and the benefits which would flow from that .
People should not be so touchy and try try to reach a growth solution . |
blue moon |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 11:21:38 AM
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There has always been a vast reservoir of energy, commitment and passion for the Arab, Anglo and Part breds, but over the last twenty or so years, the emphasis has been more and more on the in hand horse, to the detriment of the ridden horse.
While it is a wonderful education for the babies to do a bit of in hand showing, that is not the reason they were bred. The ultimate goal is to be produced under saddle, and I am sorry to say that the AHS has shown precious little interest in them.
People can only hit their heads up against a brick wall for so long, before they say enough, and go elsewhere where they get recognition and encouragement.
Alistair cast your mind back to the late sixties. The Anglo and part bred classes were full, at the National Show, and I mean two lines of exhibits in most classes. The mares going forward for Premium status were of a very high standard and usually numbered over twenty in the section for over 14.2h.h. The classes for youngstock out of premium mares were also well filled, and made very interesting watching, and the great majority went on to win in all the sphere they were entered in.
Due to neglect on behalf of the society, most of these very valuable breeders went off to join other societies, but if you are interested you can still follow these bloodlines...yes they are Anglo and part breds, but not necessarily registered with the society.
One of the reasons that the Cherif was started in 1990, was to promote our fantastic ridden Anglo and part breds, to the outside world, and we have been exceedingly lucky that H&H considered this event important enough to give us a write up from the word go. When this event first started, we had about four ponies entered (entries were already dropping at the Arab Show). Now we are averaging thirty plus ponies at the final. You want to ask yourself why. Over the last ten years or so, our overall entries have exceeded a hundred, proving the point, that these animals are out there, you need to give them something to aim for, and achieve.
Bearing in mind that we have not been able to increase the prize money since 1990, it just shows you that if you provide what is wanted, it will be popular.
It might be quite interesting to see how much revenue the Cherif has actually brought into the society, as at this moment in time, we still insist that exhibits are registered with the society, and we are fully aware that each year many new exhibits are being registered with the society because of this competition, so please don't infer that people have walked away from the society without a valid reason. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 11:57:10 AM
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Alistair.....Sorry but believe the blame for this rests entirely on the shoulders of the Arab Horse Society.
Dedicated Anglo and Part Bred Arab Breeders have been so alienated over the last three decades, is it any wonder Members are expressing their dissent, by turning their backs on AHS and registering their stock with other Breed Societies and Associations.
Reducing the percentage from 25 to 12.5% Arab Blood minimum requirement for PBA registration.(I believe this was done to boost the AHS coffers) The impact was immediate, Professional Riding Pony Producers, who would NEVER admit that their ponies were PBA, then saw it as a way to go pothunting their mini ponies, and classes became swamped with matchstick legged tiny ponies, winning the Anglo/PBA Championships at Major Shows. Whilst appreciating the Arab blood infusion, improves every breed, Dedicated Anglo and Part Bred Arab Breeders, just did not bother to compete in these classes....hence
the decline in entries from that time.
When the Anglo/PBA UK Championships was first introduced in 1990/1? Classes were huge....twenty or so in each class. That too, gradually declined until the Show ceased Great Shame!! Can only hope the reintroduction of this Show, will motivate a renewed enthusiasm and wish the Organisers good luck in their endevour.
In 1994/1996 the AHS decided to cancel The Premium Scheme Youngstock Classes and Anglo/PBA Sire Produce Awards, followed by the Anglo/PBA Family Group classes, all held at the National Show, and well supported. These classes were "the shop window" for Premium Scheme Stallion and Mare Owners....AND TAKEN AWAY FROM US!!
Then as a final blow, the AA (part one and 2 issue)which has been rolling on for fifteen years, with the "powers of be" trying to convince Members ( in particular Dedicated Breeders of Anglos, to accept none pedigree horses into our Pure Anglo Arab Stud Book) is the way forward for our Breed!! ........RUBBISH, a pedigree horse is a pedigree horse, and regardless of political intervention, the Breed cannot be allowed to lose the purity of its Stud Books.
Personally, if it were not for the fact that I HAVE HAD to be a Member of the AHS, for the last several decades, to register my Anglos, I would have long since turned my back on the Arab Horse Society, However, I am seriously considering my options, as I am confident my Anglo Brood Mares would readily be approved by other Societies. I am sure, I am not the only Member that feels this way.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 02 Mar 2009 12:46:23 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 12:28:37 PM
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Agree totally, and very well put SueN...was still writing when you posted.
With regard to the Cherif Championships...AHS take your head out of the sand, open your eyes WIDE and you will see that Anglo and Part Bred Riding Members, are supporting this Show BIG TIME. Clearly the organisers are LISTENING AND PROVIDING an exceptional Show, as can be evidenced by the huge support of Exhibitors/Sponsors and Spectators, regardless of the fact that the Show is held mid week.
The organisers are Friendly, Welcoming and extremely Helpful.
Any Exhibitor/Spectator who goes to the Cherif Championships, can take in the vibe of excitement and enthusiasm and appreciate the special effort of the Organisers and Sponsors, who have joined forces to make this THE Show to be seen at on the Major Show Circuit.
The `cream` of Ridden Anglo and Part Bred Arab Horses can be appreciated and many have had successful In-Hand careers which we, the Dedicated Breeders have produced especially for Ridden Competition Classes, be it Showing or Whatever sphere their Riders choose to take these outstanding Horses.
Therefore, with all the many Arab/Anglo/Part Bred Arabs out there flying the flag, how could you possibly suggest there is a complacency on the side of long suffering Members.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk[
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Edited by - BabsR on 02 Mar 2009 12:41:26 PM |
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