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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 1:23:25 PM
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"I can assure you all that Brujo has only been owned by two people in his life myself and Nat,
Mandy"
As confirmed by Hispano-Arabe UK the association representing owners/breeders of Hispano-Arabes, and that has also been closely involved with the loan of this horse and the true facts. At present Nat still as the owner has not received any substantiated proof as to the where-abouts of her horse. Untill this is provided to her and varified; the horse is missing.
Anabel. |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 1:25:21 PM
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| i am only passing on the message that horses missing on loan have stated, i hope Nat gets him back soon. |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 2:45:03 PM
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Sadly the FB page owner while endeavouring to represent the welfare of the horses has to protect her interests when bullying takes place. You will note that in other listed cases where both parties have finally communicated and posted on the site about the horse in dispute there is not one of them threatening action against the organisation helping whichever party is the owner to mediate.
Nat has all along, and is still following the legal steps as the legitamate owner to retrieve her horse Brujo under Civil Law, and still has not had any substantiated proof as to where her horse is. Other parties listing of a Law firm but still withholding any details of both their legal address for validation of who they are or the horses whereabouts is not proof of compliance to answer to the full law. It is playing. Wasting time to prolong and elude the presentation of the whole truth. |
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maromito
Bronze Member
Wales
94 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 10:36:32 AM
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Brujo belongs to Natalie !
As Mandy said she bred him and Natalie owns him
This whole situation is ridiculous ! This person has taken the horse without his owners permission and hidden him ,now she cannot have done this on her own, someone has to be giving her livery and assistance and its beyond me as to why they would want to associate themselves with a situation of this kind as its bound to have repercussions on their reputation and credibility.
Natalie is quite rightly taking the legal route with this and will pursue it all the way ,this woman could stop all of this by simply picking up the phone and telling Natalie where her horse is .
To simple I suppose given the avarice and arrogance of the loanee |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 11:09:44 AM
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It is quite possible that the person who has Brujo at livery knows nothing about the situation. As far as I am aware most yard owners don't ask for proof of ownership when someone puts their horse at livery so it is a bit unfair to state "someone has to be giving her livery and assistance and its beyond me as to why they would want to associate themselves with a situation of this kind as its bound to have repercussions on their reputation and credibility."
Barbara |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 11:10:54 AM
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| according to the message from the horses missing on loan as above, they know where brujo is?? they have messaged Nat so im presuming that nat will speak to horses missing on loan, i hope she gets him back. |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 11:12:06 AM
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| quite agree Barbara, i have never been asked for proof of ownership for any of mine at any livery! |
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 12:00:23 PM
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Very good point Barbara. I think its not good to alienate people who are likely not aware or involved in any way, especially at a time when they may be needed most.
I would edit the post to remove that remark, in case they read it. |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 12:58:04 PM
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Interesting comments!
Totally agree that other parties may be totally ignorant of the facts and who owns what. Nat certainly has not done anything to alienate innocent parties and we do appreciate that the friends of the other party can only act upon what they are told by that person.
Which is why all along we have stated that both parties have to present their evidence for consideration under Civil Law and BOTH parties have to be given the right to knowledge about the whereabouts of 'their' horse but 'neither' party can waltz off with the horse and take it 'home'or 'hide him' until the Legal system has established ownership.
Hence the reason Nat has the right, based on her claim of ownership and being denied the knowledge as to the where-abouts of her horse' to state her horse Brujo is Missing.
As to being informed where Brujo is .... 'other parties' have stated Brujo is being kept at TWO different livery yards miles away from each other ! So NO Nat has no substantiated proof about where her horse is. BRUJO is MISSING until substantiated evidence about where he is really being kept is provided to Nat.
So far the other party has persisted in a game of underhand emotional pressure upon Nat and evasion of due legal process. |
Edited by - Pandora on 12 Jul 2013 1:06:24 PM |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 1:15:28 PM
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Missing Horses On Loan
Nat needs to check her emails, we know where the horse is.
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 4:01:41 PM
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"Nat needs to check her emails, we know where the horse is."
Thank you for your PM gossy. Nat does check her emails and as already stated and still as I write this
". 'other parties' have stated Brujo is being kept at TWO different livery yards miles away from each other ! So NO Nat has no substantiated proof about where her horse is. BRUJO is MISSING until substantiated evidence about where he is really being kept is provided to Nat."
Nat is only looking for one horse, her horse Brujo and he has never demonstrated in the past the amazing ability to be in two geographically different places at the same time!
Both livery yards supposedly claimed by the other party to be housing Brujo will be checked for independent varification as to which if either of them actually has Brujo. Until then he is MISSING !
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 5:46:55 PM
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Hi Gossy, I just wanted to thank you for bringing the message from horses missing on loan to our attention. I meant to thank you when I posted my reply but it was the early hours of the morning and I had to be up again for work by 7.00am and forgot !
I don't go on FB very much
So thank you !
Mandy |
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 7:38:05 PM
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| No problem Mandy, Pandora I'm merely stated what horses missing on loan messaged today that's all! If you want to ask them where they believe he is, please do! |
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Ari
Platinum Member
1657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 8:18:13 PM
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I just want say what great support ALiners have given Nat in finding the whereabouts of Brujo.
It's opened my eyes to a very difficult, emotional and complicated issue.
I wish all well in a happy outcome.
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 6:24:46 PM
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In respect of the odd comments regarding Nat not responding here on AL, she sends her apologies but she has limited access to internet and so every moment of that time is being preciously used in the legal process of getting her horse back regardless of the continued evasive attempts by the other party to delay the legal system.
As soon as Nat has positive information about Brujo and his safe return to her, she will update you herself.
Meantime she appreciates all the support from AL members. |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 09:52:05 AM
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Brujo is still MISSING.
So far no one in Scotland is providing any information about his exact where abouts.
Sad thing to say but despite my background growing up in Scotland and love for the country I would strongly advise any person looking to put their horse on loan not to let it go to Scotland.
The logistics to retrieve your horse through legal process when dealing with another countries law, compounded by a person determined to evade the law and withhold your horse from you, is frankly a nightmare.
Both this horse and the person with-holding him from his owner have been high profile in Scotland competing during his 3 yr loan, but the Scottish locals in the area he is believed to be concealed have not shown any interest in seeing that this comes to legal arbitration. Silence is as much a crime when you have information, as actively helping to conceal the missing horse.
I appreciate that there are a lot of genuine caring horse people in Scotland and any scan of Horse wanted on Loan ads will see there is a desperate request for competition horse.
Brujo was kindly loaned to just such a Scottish rider who could not afford or hope to continue further in her competition career without the help of a loan of a competent horse with the potential to help further her career. This is how she has repaid the legal owner Nat.
So; sorry to all you innocent would be horse riders wanting the loan of a good horse but when this is the situation owners are forced into, the only advice to ALL owners of horses in England is: do not under any circumstances let your horse go on loan into Scotland no matter how nice the other party might present to be.
It is a hard fact that Scotland does not operate under the same law as England and when your horse goes missing on loan anywhere it a nightmare getting it back under any legal system. When compounded with dealing long distance with a totally different legal structure and a person equally hell bent on evading co-operating with the law of any country, it is horrifying.
This is made worse by the fact there are horse owners in Scotland who know exactly where Brujo is but have no intention of helping to locate him for the Scottish legal system to identify him.
Shame on ALL parties aiding this crime to deny the owner Nat the safe return of her horse. |
Edited by - Pandora on 17 Jul 2013 12:03:15 PM |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 10:31:07 AM
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Do you want us to keep sharing his picture on FB or would that not help, fingers crossed something happens soon, i for one could not sit back knowing he belonged to somebody else and say nothing, shame on them. I don,t live in Scotland but am on the Co Durham/Northumberland border so not a million miles away from Scotland, if i can help in any way please let me know, good luck  |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 11:45:31 AM
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Thank you sab2
YES please keep his missing profile in circulation. There is still a valid logged police incident number and the only reason his missing on loan poster is no longer on the FB page for that organisation is as everyone very publicly saw the other party obstructed legitimate operation of those organisations by threatening them rather than having the integrity to say sorry but we will communicate and we will accept civil legal arbitration to submit both cases.
Only reason for the action they have persisted in taking which includes refusal to supply Nat with the whereabouts of Brujo and a contact address for themselves (the loanee moved breaching the loan contract by refusing to provide Nat with her contact address and where she had moved Brujo to)is that they are fully aware they haven't a leg to stand on if and when the full evidence is submitted to legal scrutiny rather than whatever fragment excuse they are passing around the 'friends' aiding and abetting in concealing Brujo.
Unfortunately in their continued evasion they have also put forward bogus information which wastes time and causes distress to Nat and whoever the innocent party is that they are incorporating into their web of deceit. So please if any information is being provided about where Brujo is and what is happening to him, it would be appreciated if possible for the source to validate information as much as possible before forwarding it. |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 1:09:04 PM
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I'm sorry pandora but I find your comments and judgements on Scotland, Scottish people and Scottish law highly offensive. The same advice could be given to a Scottish person considering loaning their horse to England. The moral and lesson in this story and other similar ones (including all the ones loaned in the same country) is DON'T LOAN YOUR HORSE.
Fee |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 1:35:42 PM
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Although it took some time, and the horse (Tim) was sold by the loanee, which I realise was a slightly different situation to the one Nat finds herself in, the horse ended up in Scotland, and was finally returned to the owner, so I hope the story can give Nat some hope.
http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=32599&
http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=34756&
http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=37931&
While I appreciate that things can go terribly wrong when horses are loaned out, not all loanees are bad, and obviously only the bad stories get the publicity. My sister has had her gelding on loan for 4 years, and both she and the owner are very happy with the situation, and Charlie has embarked on a very successful career in Endurance since he arrived with us. His owner has regular contact and is very proud of his new career.
I sincerely hope that Nat is able to recover her horse asap. It must be a terrible position to find yourself in. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 1:55:35 PM
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Totally agree not all loan situations go bad.
I have in the past had horses sent to me on loan to help owners like Nat while going through a crisis. I have also had the horrible very costly experience of one of my own mares being propositioned in this same type of situation by people I had known for 20 yrs and then out of the blue at the end of the loan tried to claim her as theirs (in her case in the last 6mths they had also abused her).
I do not as a result of that situation consider all potential loan homes are going to turn around and behave in this appalling manner. In fact have recently after nearly a year of consideration of potential loan homes sent another young mare of mine out on loan for both her benefit and that of the family she is enjoying being on loan with.
What I am advocating is that apart from putting in place a sensible loan contract and reviewing it regularly and keeping contact with your horse and the other party (all thing Nat did albeit with a verbal contract that has written communications subsequently supporting that agreement) is that due to the distance and differences of legal systems involved, owners have to at the start to seriously think before deliberately loaning their horse 'over the border'. Same goes loaning from Scotland into England.
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maromito
Bronze Member
Wales
94 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 2:30:43 PM
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While doing the yard work this morning I was thinking about Nats
situation and trying to imagine what this woman who has taken Bru thinks will happen in the future !!!
Does she imagine for one minute that given time it will quietly go away and how does she think shes ever going to have Brujo in public again?
And as for the people who have helped her conceal a horse she doesn't own and will never own they are reprehensible and its a shame they don't put themselves into Natalies position for a moment and feel the pain of having a much loved horse taken ,maybe then they wouldn't be so willing to help this creature ,she cannot hide forever and needs to be in no doubt that Brujo is well known and distinctive and will be noticed ,perhaps she thought Nat could be intimidated into handing Bru over to her ,I don't think so ! I know Nat and she will never give up until hes safely home neither will all her many friends ,as I said before its not a case of if its a case of when !! |
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Horse on loan missing
