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FullCircle
Gold Member
Scotland
554 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 2:50:30 PM
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| For the sake of the deep litter argument - the Laminitis Trust recommends a deep litter bed wall to wall of at least 18 inches deep and that the horse isn't moved from that stable for 30 days AFTER it's come sound again. However, THAT bed was way more than 18 inches of filth plus another foot of straw. Not quite what the Laminitis Trust meant, methinks. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 3:35:44 PM
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I am sorry to disagree but here is a direct quote from the Laminitis Trust website:
"The best bedding is deep shavings, at least 18 inches deep, covering the whole floor area"
Deep shavings is not deep litter unless we are confused by terms?
I also have a slightly different opinion to what deep litter should be to most people anyway - I think deep litter should be removing all dropping and wet patches, but not actually forking the whole bed up (similar to how you muck out wood pellets).
When Pasha was on box rest for Lami and he couldnt leave the stable, I mucked out one half whilst he stood on the other, then switched him over and mucked out the other half - he loved me in there with him and would help by bashing me over the head with the skip bucket or chucking the broom out of the door, bless him! |
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Edited by - Pasha on 29 Oct 2012 3:36:27 PM |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 3:41:19 PM
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Agree with you Pasha on the bed for a Laminetic. My mare had a huge bed of shavings, mucked out morning and night, she was a bit of a mucky mare and would tread her poo into the bed so I skipped her out before I went to work and then proper mucked out later on, ie removing wet and more poo.
Absolutely no excuses for that bed, none at all. I wouldnt put a rocking horse in those stables never mind a horse, especially a poorly horse.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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cmj
Silver Member
France
383 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 4:12:09 PM
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Pasha, quite agree. The feet get comfort being packed with shavings/peat to provide counter pressure, as I understand it anyway. I know my Cushings horse did the one time he had lami. I sure didn't take it as OK for his feet to be packed in poop.
It is not difficult to get the bulk of the droppings out with a shavings fork, or rubber gloved hands. I believe the fumes come from the urine mixing with the faeces. Even if one is vomiting with morning sickness, crawling round stable with sprained ankle, flu etc etc it is possible to do an OK job. We've all done it.......correction.....all of us responsible, caring owners have done it. If you are so ill that you literally can't move then freakin pay someone or ask for help. Zareeba, your defence is laughable except it is so sad to remember those victims of yours. Even if anyone was fluffy enough to believe you....PHOTOS, PHOTOS, PHOTOS, enough said. |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
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FullCircle
Gold Member
Scotland
554 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:16:31 PM
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 Yes I think we are all on the same page and it is in fact Ms Skipper who is confused by the term Deep Litter!
Pasha liked to dig a hole and stand in it and to be honest I let him as I thought he must be more comfortable like that?
God forbid I ever have to deal with Lami again, but if I do I think I will try the wood pellets as they do bunch up in the feet really well and seem to stay put better than shavings xxx |
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FullCircle
Gold Member
Scotland
554 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:20:58 PM
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| Yes, I found wood pellets really good as they almost acted like filler in teh foot to take pressure off - sort of like frog supports. But I agree, sure don't want to go thru THAT again! |
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FullCircle
Gold Member
Scotland
554 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 5:23:45 PM
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You know something, I had the most horrible feelings of guilt when my mare had Lami, like it may have been my fault (vet reckons it was hormone induced). She was a strapping Welsh Cob mare and yes, as it was May, she was perhas carrying a bit more weight than she ought to. But I coudln't help but feel like it was down to me to keep her right and I failed her.
I think if I had three horses at one time with Laminitis, I would have surrendered them - or begged someone to help me as I would have been convinced I was killing them on my own! |
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Goldenmane
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4964 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 6:29:37 PM
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| Now I'm back on line and able to comment I can only say I've had horses that I adore and still grieve for, put to sleep because of old age, laminitis and ill health. I have also mucked out,as CMJ has said, with morning sickness, slipped discs and begged help when I was in hospital, and received it. No excuse. Shameful. |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 7:21:14 PM
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| And none of us are authors making a living writing about horse welfare. That is the worst part! |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
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gossy
Platinum Member
England
3639 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 9:02:03 PM
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| Goldenmane, couldnt agree more, ive done the same a week after my hysterectomy, im currently nursing a broken toe but still look after all my horses, if i could no longer due to health or circumstances i would ask for help!! no horse deserves such awful treatment. |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:25:55 AM
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I have a little storey to tell!!!! from the bible!!!
Jesus came upon a group of men, he ask what they were doing, "we are going to stone this woman for adultery", Jesus then said "he that is without sin cast the first stone" when he look up the group of men had dispersed, Jesus then said to the woman "go and sin no more"
Are we guilty of the sin that the Skipper's have committed,now and in the past!!!
Are all our horses feet trimmed every 6-8 weeks or is once a blue moon enough!
Are all our horses kept on clean dry fresh bedding or only cleaned whenever!
Are all our horses seeing the vet when needed, or do you leave it a day or more and hope it will go away!
Are all our old friends PTS when there quality of live goes down hill or do we keep then for ourselves!
Are all our horses wormed, fed and looked after in a kind and caring way or do we think they will look better in the spring!
Are all our horses seeing the horse dentist each 6 to 12 months or never!
We are all guilty at some time in our lives of not doing the right thing, I am sure what happened was a combination of lots of happenings, I have seen a lot worse,and I hope I will not see it again, but I in the past have been guilty of not caring 100% for my horses  , so I will not cast a stone!!!
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Edited by - glo on 30 Oct 2012 08:32:03 AM |
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sasha
Gold Member
United Kingdom
518 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:39:44 AM
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There is 'Not caring' as you put it Glo! Then there is 'downright neglect'and the neglect had been going on for a long time. |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:50:07 AM
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There is a huge difference between what you put Glo and what the Skipper actually did!!
Yes, I have been known not to skip out in the morning if I was late for work but I always and I mean always made sure at night my horses went to bed on a clean bed and I always have said if I wouldnt sleep on it then neither do my horses!
I have the vet out when my vet is needed, I have never left my horses to suffer to see if *it would go away* I took on my horses, they didnt take me on and its my responsibilty to give them the best possible life I can. I go without sometimes to make sure my horses are well fed, rugged up and happy and pain free.
My hubby always said *why do I think nothing of spending £200 on a rug for one of the horses yet I go to the sales for my stuff*!!!!
Big difference Glo in how the Skippers managed their horses to what you have put.
Janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:53:17 AM
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Well said Glo. I was shocked by the photos, and I do not condone what happened in any way, but I have known a couple of cases where good knowledgeable and loving horse owners have been unable to cope through age or illness and didn't know where to turn for help, having been proudly independent for years (and believe it or not a lot of older people are not on the Internet and don't see many outside people). It is easy to be critical, it would be more useful to all concerned to try and make sure this sort of tragic situation is avoided.
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  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:30:17 AM
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| Glo, what you have described are basically the essentials that every horse we look after is entitled to and the very least we should provide for them. |
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cmj
Silver Member
France
383 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:31:11 AM
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| Well I've just "thrown a stone" Amazon's way telling them I am disgusted they are selling books by this person, and why. |
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Paresh
Gold Member
613 Posts |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:33:55 AM
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Agree with Judith S. If we cannot provide those for our horses and other animals then I suggest people sell them so other people can give them the basics in life that they need.
Janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:45:18 AM
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Glo I am sure your post was kindly meant but it doesn't sit well with me at all, especially as you are referencing Jesus and the bible! I am not a Christian (I am a nothing actually) but that is a whole other argument! However, I can categorically state YES to each of your questions and agree with Judith, that this is the LEAST owners should provide!
I have had the mickey taken out at me for the frequency of my vet visits/ farrier/ physio and for 'throwing money away' to get to the bottom of an issue! Do I care? Hell no! I have been brought up to treat my horses as part of my family! I believe a have a duty of care towards Shesky as if he were my child and I have and will do everything possible, regardless of cost, to ensue he has the most happiest and fulfilling life he can, as I am sure most members of AL do! |
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LadyLuck1
Gold Member
England
730 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:11:31 AM
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What you mentioned Glo is basic care and in my opinion if someone cant provide those then they shouldn't have a horse. I would rather call the vet out and pay the £50 call out charge just to be told I'm worrying about nothing rather than let my horse suffer. I work two jobs to keep Kirstie.
There are no excuses for the way the horses were treated and I cant understand how anyone can make excuses or defend her.
Mary |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:43:18 AM
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I have to agree with JudithS, Kazzy, Pasha and LadyLuck1!
What you have described Glo is basic care, of course I can answer yes to all of those questions!
They are the basics. |
Heléna
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borleybird
Bronze Member
184 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:43:19 AM
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| Thanks for your Post glo. I have been reading this thread and wanted to post but could think of nothing constructive to write. Yes I am shocked by the situation and very angry but my feelings can't change the past. However, your post got me thinking that rather than dwelling in these negative feelings, it would be much more beneficial if I focused on positive things including offering moral support to my mate who is struggling as well as mucking out for her. I'm not perfect and life is a learning curve but by reflecting on my past mistakes, I grow and learn. I'm always concerned when I start thinking I know everything, so thank you for bump back down to earth. |
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RSPCA vs Skipper - the truth
