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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 09:50:10 AM
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| My son has a very "bolshy" mare who, in the past, tried it on - if she went to kick he would kick her back - in the same way as another horse would. She no longer does it but I would draw the line at provoking a horse/pony/foal into kicking just to prove a point/show myself higher up the heirarchy. Pearl picks her back leg up if you are doing stuff around her tail/legs (she was unhandled until the age of 4.5 yrs) but a sharp "no" gets it back on the floor. |
www.spanglefish.com/kasanarhythmbeads/ |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 11:56:12 AM
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I don't provoke any of mine either, but if they cross the line, they get kicked. I have found that a boot up the bum of a bolshy foal (that has just kicked ME) saves a lot of grief later in life. As Dom says, if I want to be the alpha mare, I have to BEHAVE like an alpha mare. So I 'talk horse'. I *never* kick legs or anything other than the extremely well-padded part of the backside - and I only wear soft wellies, never steel toe-caps.
And this, I might add, is the reasoned result of studying a lot of works on equine communication and social dynamics, not just a random act of frustration!
Keren |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 12:08:43 PM
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It's being quick enough though isn't? My foal bit my YO ( !) who has had over 40 years experience breeding, handling etc and she said he knew he had done wrong as he just shot away (in the field at the time) so she couldn't chastise him.
When we moved at New Year to my friend's house, he caught her in the back with a kick whilst charging around and again it so floored her (literally) that she couldn't respond so he got away with being very badly behaved twice  !
I have to confess that when I was walking through his field with the muck barrow, I always took an old broom handle with me perched on the barrow as it made ME feel more confident if he came towards me with intent. He was never malicious, just saw me as another horse to play with. If I waved the stick about before he reached me, he would squid (skid even!) to a halt, turn around and buck in my face (little g**).
I've sent him away now to Alethea to be with other horses as he just wasn't getting the discipline from his mum that he needed, she was useless ~ just let him barrel into her, steal her food, move into her space and she would never reprimand him, neither would the granny pony in the field with them. Despite threatening him with the glue factory, he definitely ruled the roast (roost, what's happening to my typing  ) which is obviously not a good idea with an enormous, confident colt foal. Hopefully when he comes back from his prep-school he will be a bit more respectful <prays>  .
ps that was a joke about the glue factory (mostly)  .
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
Edited by - jaj on 12 Feb 2010 12:25:04 PM |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 12:21:01 PM
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I'm amazed at some of the comments on this thread and the complete lack of understanding of horse psychology...
Hassling foals to kick you - My jaw is on the floor
I've heard of foal imprinting but I really don't see where this action fits in. In fact, it is a very dangerous "game" to play regardless of whether it is done in a controlled environment and not in anger.
If this is the kind of behaviour that humans are displaying to these stallions (or any horse for that matter), then it's no wonder horses are attacking "out of the blue".
When behavioural problems start to show up, people are only too quick to blame the horse. These horses aren't naughty, they are confused!
A horse has a natural instinct to survive and will adopt behavioural strategies in order to do this. If it feels threatened it will fight back often mirroring the behaviour that it has been subjected to.
So, rule by aggression and you will get aggression.
I'm not oblivious to the fact that stallions are hormone driven but if Lynda, and others like her, can handle their stallions in a kind manner, how come other handlers can't?
The answer has got be down to the way in which they are kept and handled. |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 12:26:50 PM
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"Hassling foals to kick you - My jaw is on the floor "
Phew, I thought that was just me who was amazed at that. Whoever wrote that is saying that they actually make their horse perform a behaviour then tell them off for it! |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 12:35:56 PM
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I can understand the logic in reprimanding them if they kick or bite you, but actually provoking them so that you can punish them is as for going in to kick them a second time for good measure, well that is just totally  .
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 1:03:12 PM
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Mr J ,Just reading this latest part of the thread,
What strange ways people have of dealing with young horses!All young stock will take the P given half a chance but if they are done right from the start you should not have any problems,remember they are animals NOT little children,from foal to when we sell them at 1YR they all live in groups until I split them up in March of there yearling year because that's when colts will start to take interest in the fillies.They all come in at night into a barn and go out every day regardless of the weather,and no I don't waste my time with rugs they are animals after all,we walk around them each day to have a look at them to see how they are developing they all come over as I always take a bucket of nuts that way you can always catch them
every six weeks the blacksmith trims the feet and when this is done each yearling has a chifney put on that way you have full control but saying that the colts will try it on but you can mostly always stop them with your voice,I never wave a stick around as this only smacks of fear and gets them on edge,I cant remember any of them being a problem all mine will stand for the b'smith tie up in a box also they are happy to be washed with a hose pipe will walk in hand with a bridle(but I always take a stick with colts)When dealing with horse's I think you need what I call 'animal sense' you have this or you don't you cannot learn it in a way you know what that animal is going to do BEFORE its done it, and then act on it,I think Keren would agree this works as Jamana was done this way from day one. |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 4:55:54 PM
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Hmmmm. I can't really see what is to be gained from 'baiting' a foal to kick you, other than confusing it and causing it to lose confidence in humans.
My 2 young boys are likew chalk & cheese. Baraakah has always been as soft as tripe, wouldn't dream of kicking or biting from the moment he was born. If I TRIED to get him to kick me, he would become very upset and confused. He's a sensitive soul and that sort of behaviour would make him nervous, which is the last thing I want.
Ali on the other hand was born bolshy and cocky. He was incredibly confident and 'in your face' from day one. His mother is a soft touch too, so he walked all over her. SO,Any time he tried to boot me, whether he caught me or not, he was booted straight back and chased away. If he nipped, I pinched him back and again, chased him right away, just like a horse would. I also turned him out, (with Mum) into a big mixed herd. He has now learnt to respect other horses, instead of walking all over them, and is lovely to handle. Definately no more biting and kicking !
Reacting as a horse would is something that is easier for horses to understand. I've never seen another horse deliberately bait another to provoke a violent reaction though !!
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Edited by - Zenitha on 12 Feb 2010 4:58:03 PM |
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carole ferguson
Silver Member
United Kingdom
457 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 7:10:50 PM
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| My dear saddlebred x mare Astarte - saw her filly foal kick out at my son when she was a few months old - and Asti immediately went and kicked her. The foal - now nearly eight years old - has never raised a leg to us since. She gallops about bucking and kicking in the field - and might be a bit of a handful sometimes when something upsets her - but she never attemps to kick us. |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 7:24:58 PM
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Don't you think carrying a stick whilst handling a stallion is a little like wearing a crash cap when riding?
You hope you don't need it but.........
Pretty much like the wearing of protective head gear, I expect the H&S officer on some large yards might deem it mandatory for employees to carry one when handling stallions.
Risk: Stallion attack
Precaution: Stick to protect personal space, protective head gear
Just trying to look at this from Jamana's/TB yard's point of view. I know some insurance companies have specific exclusions or conditions pertaining to stallions.  |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
Edited by - ella on 12 Feb 2010 7:29:04 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 8:01:41 PM
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I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of Mr J's youngstock routine as Jamana-the-filly herself is a very nicely behaved girl and a pleasure to be around She took a 300 mile journey in her stride, despite never having been more than 10 miles in a lorry before, and didn't even take the P when she went out for her first walk round her new village.
Keren |
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Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 8:52:50 PM
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Hmm. Just got in form the horses, and have to go out again, so not enough time to give a detaoled response.
I think you need to look at your assumptions of what I do and how I do it before drawing lines in the sand or making judgements.
Some words that need clarification in your minds: punishment, provocation, baiting. None of them fit what I do, but I might ask you what you have decided I mean!
Dom |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 9:05:17 PM
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I have just got in from work and am knackered but was told to have a read!
Hi Cate, I didn't say I had never seen an unruly stallion!! I have , as I said earlier on had to treat exremely vicious and dangerous stallions, I have just spoken up for the very good temper of the ARAB stallions I know.In addition the stallions I know are not all trained by the time I meet them... the first time I meet them is often when I scan them as 15day old conceptus in their mothers womb, and I will see them through foal and colthood!
Zenitha and Zan thankyou very much for your kind words.
Sirius, Hi I agree in as much as a foal needs to learn to respect personal space and that kicking and biting humans are not options, but to deliberately provoke aggressive behaviour towards people , have you really thought this through??
I am too tired to make much sense so will not ramble but it seems unwise and unfair to me. I find that if you are gentle and respectful to horses they are likely to be the same back, if they do cross the line a raised voice or slap has a LOT more impact and shock value if it is immediate and outside your normal pattern of behaviour with them. They often gulp and look really surprised, they then know exactly where the line is. However to my mind to goad a foal ( who may well never think to kick) into doing so is quite bizzare. Sorry Dom just my view ! I like to have my horses think kicking and biting people is simply not an option, if they try it or think about trying it I would make it pretty clear to them that it's not a good idea but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to put the idea in their heads in the first place!! and then punish them for doing what I have provoked them to do!!???!!!!! It seems most unfair and likely to make a resentful rather than respectful horse. JMO!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 12 Feb 2010 9:48:54 PM |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 9:08:59 PM
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Lisa,
Thankyou for being a sane and lovely reasonable person amongst all the other,,,,on AL  |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 11:56:56 PM
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Well, on reading the responses, then what I wrote, I'm sure I could have described and explained what I do less well, but only with a massive effort.
It's been a long hard week, and the coming weekend wil be equally draining, so I won't be able to do anything about it until next week. My fault for trying to put it in a few words.
Briefly, I don't abuse, terrify or betray. I don't suggest behaviour that they don't already show, and no foals are harmed in any way. If you look for clues to that in what I wrote you will find them. If you look for the fault many of you are clearly alerted to look for, I haven't put enough to allay your fears.
Apart from essential emails, I won't be using the computer until Sunday late evening.
Dom. |
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arkay1405
Silver Member
436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 8:35:45 PM
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I have to say that I have 2 of Jan and Dom's Seren arabians, Seren Capella, who is currently with them in foal to Winged Saint, and Seren Rigel, who I have on loan for the moment. They are both the most delightful, people-friendly, confident, calm animals you could wish to meet. They exhibit no signs of ever having been fearful of anything. They are respectful without being cowed in any way. They certainly have their own individual personalities. Both have a heightened sense of humour and play and are not afraid to show it. None of this suggests animals which have been badly treated in any way at all. I have been around horses for 40 years this year ( how old?!) and having witnessed the behaviour of several animals who have been abused in some way, I can safely say that this is not the case with Dom's horses.
I am hoping that I will not be shot down in flames but I can only speak as I find and I find them to be wonderful animals.
Rebecca. |
Seren Capella and Seren Rigel.Edgware, Middx/Herts border
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 9:06:44 PM
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Really interesting thread. I have very limited experience of stallions. I did once work part time for a guy who bred Irish Drafts. He had a gorgeous dapple grey stallion who I would feed and muck out without too much problem but the poor horse was rarely turned out and as a result was pretty wired. I never 'handled' him as such myself and watched very nervously when the owner did ever bring him out of the stable and turn him out - there didn't seem much control there. I didn't work for him for long - he was not the sort of person who should have been keeping any horse, let alone a stallion This same bloke also went to Builth Wells whilst I was working for him and bought two Welsh D colt foals. One was very quiet and easy to handle. The other was a time bomb of testosterone, which I refused to handle as he would just attack. But again these poor foals were rarely turned out and probably weaned too early. This was all a good few years ago and I was pretty young - if I saw that same situation now I would tell this bloke he shouldn't be keeping pigeons, let alone horses.
As for trusting your own animals - all mine are extremely polite and don't bite or kick or barge... well at least that's what I thought until a couple of days ago. It's very easy to get complacent and lulled into a false sense of security when you only generally handle your own horses. But then something will happen that serves to remind you that at the end of the day they are half a ton of instinct that can do you damage whether they intend it or not. My mare lives out 24/7 with my 3 year old filly and my 22 year old gelding. I feed them all in the field - gelding first as he's boss, mare second and finally filly a good distance away from the mare. But the other day I must have been a bit lax and hadn't quite got the filly far enough away from the mare. As I put the filly's feed bucket down I heard a thundering of hooves behind me. I had no chance to get out of the way as my mare went for the filly. I was knocked flying. Mare went straight back to her feed but bless my filly - she crept up to me and sniffed my hair to make sure I was okay. I was fine - a bit bruised but more than anything felt lucky as if anything more serious had happened no one would have found me for a long time. It was served to remind me not to take my horses for granted - things can go wrong even with the best of temperaments. |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 9:16:35 PM
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| I think what this all comes down to is the fact of nature which is the stallion is dominant within the herd,it is likeley that he will see the owner/handler as part of the herd if he is offered the chance,it is up to the owner/handler to make sure that the boundaries are set in place whether it be by carrying a stick or piece of hosepipe or leaving it to chance and accepting the consequence should something go wrong. Stallions can appear cutesy especially if you are not involved hands on in their day to day activities, but the fact is it only takes one time for things to go wrong and they can't be reversed - it's your life live it as you see fit. I have a family,dependants and other animals to care for so i will always carry a stick and make sure the boys are bitted in company,my life is too precious to take a chance and i have learnt from experience with young colts that you can be too kind - just ask me to give you a broad grin if you see me at a show. |
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Esther
Gold Member
United Kingdom
866 Posts |
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Theo
Silver Member
England
368 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:16:31 AM
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Foal imprinting: I carry it out for 15 minutes once the foal hits the floor at foaling and then another 15 minute session within the next 10 days. I have discussed this at length with Monty and seems to concur that what Robert Miller DVM describes in his book and video on the subject seems a little excessive. I merely work on their 'vulnerable areas' to gain their acceptance that 'it's okay for human to touch!'- ie feet, mouth, face, ears, body... etc. IMHO think that breeders who clip out their foal's faces 'in a calm manner' is not a bad thing either. (I use a hair dryer so they get used to just the noise and it's a nice experience for the wet and cold newborn)
I does seem to set a precedence upon the way the young horse views their relationship with us humans. It sets up the 'behaviour boundaries' for what's right and wrong. Putting them in a better position for them to accept what we view as 'everyday life' in their lifetime. Hopefully not to give someone an excuse to 'take to the stick'.
Mill Reef: Funny he should be mentioned with a quirky trait, as years ago, I rescued a old TB gelding George (RIP) he came with no papers, and always suspected that he was of that lines... he managed to rip apart my thickest winter jacket one day whilst I went into feed him without reason or provocation... Mmmmm  But IMHO TB's seem to be more susceptible to 'quirkiness' as in their working life they're surrounded by little people who seem to have the 'I'll get you before you get me' attitude. Most owners don't seem to care as they pay their bills and are'nt in the front line!
Lindilou: Lynda, a true testimony for Charismma colts... Alfie, despite he's entire and 4 this year... he's a perfect gentleman to handle! 
Razmoniet: 2 years ago this feisty colt greeted me with his teeth bared... Now I can muck him out with him in the stable and gives me kisses with a soft mouth... But does'nt mean I can drop my guard on him. It's taken me two years to get to this stage of handling and would probably take me just as long to get a saddle on him...!
Stick: I concur with most of your thoughts on carrying a stick, despite my teacher is strictly against the carrying of the item... but I view it as of 'guidance' rather than a 'weapon of punishment'. Sometimes as an etiquette in the ring you have to carry one... so, yes, I would carry one as an 'incase' rather than using it on the horse every 5 seconds... (besides, they'll get numb to it anyway!)IMHO whichever form of training... consistency IS the key, in order to get the same result... there's no right or wrong way. My worry is that one day the horse gets so desensitised to your stick that you might need a bigger and thicker one!
T x |
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Edited by - Theo on 14 Feb 2010 5:21:02 PM |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:45:39 AM
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Mr.J,Look I sounds like you are missing the point,let me assure you all that professional stallion men DO NOT hit the horse every five seconds,but you do have to REMIND them who is the master. We do not have the attitude of lets show them who is the boss before they get us,only someone who is scared or a complete amateur would do this.
Stallions are just like any other horse as I have said some are well behaved some are complete nightmares but they all get respect as they can and some do attack for no reason,Some people on this thread seem to think this is not the case,well let them go and work on a leading stud and deal with proper stallions who are kept just for covering mares and nothing else,not semi pet entries who lead a fairly normal life these comparisons are like chalk and cheese |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 11:51:35 AM
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Very interesting thread.
I have never had a filly/mare who would kick. They have never even tried it and many of them have never even tried to nip. Perhaps I have been lucky but they have all been sweethearts and a firm "NO" and a push is all that is needed. I do find colts much more "challenging". My older stallion, Spanish Crusader, would turn his bum towards you and threaten to kick if you went in the box with him and his mum when he was a few months old, he was an unfriendly foal who didn't really like people. I did set him up but did nothing to provoke him, just made sure he did his "up knickers" as someone once put it! I got my husband to stand at the far side of him and walk along his side towards his back end while I stood on the near side; as he did his "up knickers" I gave him an almighty slap on the back of his thighs with the strap of a head collar. It really stings but can't hurt them and you can stay out of the way and if he kicks again repeat the slap. In his case he never kicked again. I certainly wouldn't have provoked him to kick but he was a great "threatener" and one day it would happen and I didn't want it to. They are so quick and kicks can be lethal.
Barbara |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 12:15:52 PM
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I've been resisting the temptation to respond to this thread, but I am heartily sick of the British obsession with demonising stallions.
Firstly lets take commercial TB studs out of the equation, I'm sure the majority of people reading this topic are not trying to breed TB race horses, but actually want a family friend and riding horse so temperament is paramount.
I completely agree with you Mr J (would be nice to know your real name !) on many points and would also carry a stick when covering with the stallions you are descibing. I think and hope you would also agree that not only do TB stallions cover a much larger number of mares in a day, they are almost always presented with a mare that is ready to cover, in other words already teased so they expect to be able to cover immediatly, this I'm sure you would agree is a very unnatural course of events. I do however object to your constant use of the expression "proper stallions" this has different meanings for different people, I think you should subsitute "commercial" . This does not mean that people who spend years researching bloodlines, temperament and all the other genes that make up a well rounded horse of any breed are any less proper or any less professional, even if their stallions only cover 1 or 2 mares a year.
I am another who trusts my stallions, and I have no idea where my stick is, however trust doesn't equate to being complacent. ALL horses can be dangerous, I have never been injured by a stallion but have had some very close shaves with mares.
Just to put this in context fot the last 33 years I have kept between 1-4 stallions at any one time, and have been involved with TB and ID studs, my partner also worked with TBs for years, on board rather than on the ground..
I suggest if people want to see "proper stallions" then visit Portugal or Spain at fiesta time, where you will see large numbers of
stallions, being ridden, tied up outside bars, ridden by children etc etc, with no aggression, many of these horses are covering at home.
I hope Mr J that you take this response in the spirit it is intended,I am merely redressing the balance all experiences are different but are equally valid, I also know stallion men and women who work on commercial studs its tough, and can be dangerous if precautions are not taken, but please don't assume that it is the only way to work with stallions.
Mandy
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 12:34:03 PM
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My own experience of stallions is limited - however the stallions that I have been involved with (Sec A, Sec B and a couple of Arab) have all had wonerful, kind natures. All have been "proper" stallions in that they cover mares. I fully accept that TB studs are very commercial and as such very "different". The life of a "semi pet entire" has got to be preferable to life on a busy TB stud and surely that shows through in the nature of the stallion?
NB: I AM NOT saying that stallions cannot be dangerous or SHOULD NOT be treated with respect.
I believe that we should remember that ALL mares are as entire as stallions, we should treat/handle all horses with caution and respect. |
www.spanglefish.com/kasanarhythmbeads/ |
Edited by - moatside on 14 Feb 2010 12:36:19 PM |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 1:25:37 PM
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Mr J, I am conceited enough to regard 'proper stallions' as TB's within the racing industry., due to the level of care and management that goes hand in hand with horses of this value. Whilst it is true that the stallion is presented with mares ready to cover he always tries before covering. The stud I did the stallions on had the mares boarding there, and so the stallions would try some of whichever mares needed to be tried that day. Ending up with 'his' mare to be covered. We had a teaser stallion that did the majority of trying mares. This is the way that he learns that not ever mare is for him or ready to be covered. Some he has to try and then they walk away. Not all stallions will try many mares. Some will stand and try perhaps a dozen mares, but others have had enough after one or two.
The original point of this thread was drawing attention to the fact that a man had been killed whilst performing routine care of his stallion (feeding it in the field). What I found surprising was the response, rather than being 'there but for the grace of god go all of us who own/manage stallions' it was more,'Well if he needed to carry a stick it was bound to happen' or 'My stallion would NEVER do that'. The plain facts are, regardless of whatever else has been said on the previous 8 pages, that ANY stallion COULD inflict such injuries. Some are more likely to than others, the majority probably won't, but all are physically capable. |
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Reality Check
