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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 2:25:44 PM
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Dear Mr J, I am not going to spend the day batting this back and fore, especially as by your last post you are clearly not prepared to accept any one else's point of view. I am merely making the point that this forum is not the TBA and here the majority of us have very different relationships with our horses, our horses are not cared for because of the financial value they hold, but the bond we have with them as our companions and riding horses.
Again, all horses have the potential to hurt us, but rarely do deliberately, it is far more frequently our misreading or inexperience that causes accidents.
I find as I get older, the more I learn, the less I know, conceit around horses is equally as dangerous as complacency.
Mandy
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 2:33:05 PM
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'There for the grace of God go I'.......I think that when I see a coffin !! Whilst I am truely thrilled that people have these magical relationships with their horses things do snap and dear god, let someone be there to protect you if it does.
I should have been alone that Saturday afternoon, the girls weren't due to come in but they'd come to collect something and stayed to help feed round. Terry was playing golf. I fetched Sinan Bey in like I had 100's of times before. We were walking across the yard towards his box like we had 100's of times before. I remember him spinning round facing me, maybe just 6 feet from his stable, I remember he had no ears !! I remember going down. I remember feeling almost suffocated. I tried to twist my body out of the way and I kicked and I screamed. I remember feeling his teeth glance off me and sickeningly I remember the noise he made. He had me pinned to the ground.
The rest is very much a blur. The girls threw bricks at him which hit him and took his attention away from me whilst I scrambled out of the way. I remember his lead rein hanging on the floor and my immediate reaction was that of worry incase he got wrapped up in it !! He walked into his box, we shut the door. He ate his tea, all was normal again !! Just minutes had past. I couldn't open my left eye, I looked as if I'd been in a boxing ring, my nose was bleeding, my lip split, I'd cracked a rib, very sore on one hip (later to bruise like hell) and a gash on my head with a huge lump. I went to the house, rang Terry explained what had happened and threw up everywhere. I began to shake violently and cry, no sob. I rang Peter & Mark who told me to send him straight to them. They just thought there was abit of exaggeration. He was there for sometime before it happened again. He'd been bathed and clipped went out in his field everyday. One day Mark let him loose as usual, turned to walk back to the gate and Sinan Bey grabbed him by the back of the neck and pinned him to the ground. Even after weeks they respected what HAD happened and there was always 2 of them with him. Peter was there and he got the horse off a very shaken Mark.
Sinan Bey was PTS. I know the life Sinan Bey had had. Very relaxed, out daily, wanted for nothing, he had a great routine and freedom and then snap !! It was a cruel end to a wasted life, believe me we all cried. It can happen to anyone at anytime. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:01:56 PM
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Delyth   .
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:05:23 PM
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I have been reading this with interest, dont feel I could comment really as I have never had a stallion, or handled one , apart from 2 colts that were gelded shortly after I got them, to have a nice life with company.
Most of the stallions I have met have all been charming. But reading Delyths post makes you realise, it can happen out of the blue... of course no-one would want to think their best friend would do something like this...
It must have been awful for you, not only to have it happen, but obviously to lose your boy too. But there could be no going back, could there. |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:41:10 PM
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RAFA
I have read your post on page one regarding colt foal born with one testicle.
I bought a yearling that never dropped his second testicle.He was operated on and gelded then the second one was found in the groin a few month later (no fault of the vet at the operation)
He was never never nasty in anyway. A gentle chap all the way.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 4:03:37 PM
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Very sobering account Delyth.
No one can say 'never'.
The Arab stallions I've ridden and handled have all been exceptional characters and temperaments but you do hear of horses that do just turn, who knows why? On one occasion I heard of it was a brain tumour, on another perhaps a misinterpretation of the human's behaviour/posture.
You always have to bear in mind that horses are horses, not people. But it's very difficult to persist in being wary of a horse such as the stallion I have here now - an absolute dreamboat in every way. Even the vet checked himself for undercarriage on first seeing him, because he was sceptical a stallion would behave so much like a dobbin. |
Roseanne |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 5:46:34 PM
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| Mr J,Well well as I said before what funny things people do with young horse's hairdryers around new born foals!What ever is your mare doing when this is going on?When I read this whole thread it really does make me laugh, perhaps I've missed something in management of horses ..............as poster Mandy said this is not the TBA, you sure have spoken the truth Mandy,I cant think any member of that outfit who would manage their stock in such peculiar ways that some posters seem to! |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 6:22:11 PM
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Tomos, I agree with the points that you have made.
I have worked with racing tbs, Arabs and probably about 15 -20 other breeds of stallions, I fail to see why a tb is any more 'proper' than any other. I do agree there is a massive difference between a covering stallion and an entire who has not covered, and that the management on commercial tb studs does affect their behaviour but, again, many of the Arab stallions I am refering to are covering all season, not just 1 or 2 mares, and they are easy and pleasant to be around.
It may be worth remembering that the 'blood' in a tb 'blood' horse is Arab blood, maybe some of Eastern breeds Turkoman etc, but mostly Arab, on the sire side of course and the original dam lines, eg the Royal mares , old bald peg etc, famous mares, Arab mares.
The only reason I am saying this is that Arabs, while being intelligent and kind (in my opinion and experience), are actually sensitive,high couraged,athletic horses.
They have been bred for millenia as war horses. If anyone thinks they are any less of a 'proper' horse than a tb,(which is a derivative of the Arab in any case) it may be worth watching them tails up stretching to the finish after a 100 MILE race.
Delyth, you poor thing , I had a similar though less severe experience as a child. You are right to post this as a warning and Mr J is right to say 'there but for the grace of god' because it CAN happen.
I have to say though experiences like yours with Sinan Bey are extremely rare and (in my experience) relationships like Lynda's with Charismma are extremely common ( Lynda, I mean this in a good way!  and at least I spelt his name properly this time).
The only two people that I actually know personally who have contributed to this thread have both had similar wonderful close relationships with Arab stallions, who were covering stallions and not 'entire pets'. ( The same goes for me too.) So while it is true we must all be aware, for my part I agree with Tomos's posts entirely. That was not meant as a pun BTW!!
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 6:37:24 PM
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I think the point Mr J is making is that the TB breeding industry (unlike other breeds of horse) has had as its main focus for at least a couple of hundred years the management of stallions who live almost exclusively for covering and little else, and therefore has developed highly specialised methods of handling such horses in the maximum safety - for all concerned.
In this country at least, very few Arab stallions live their lives solely as sex machines. Most have other work to do under saddle - which, as well as the millennia of selection for temperament the breed has undergone - helps give the horse a different (and potentially more balanced) perspective on life.
But as Delyth so graphically points out - even with the best management, the worst can still happen, and it can happen to YOU, without warning. I see Mr J's methods in the same light as wearing a seatbelt in a car - you might NOT be in an accident, but why ignore sensible precautions and take the risk? I see nothing abusive in what he has describes - and my stallions are some of the soppiest horses of ANY gender I have ever discovered (much more so than most mares!!!!).
FWIW, the worst injuries myself and my OH have suffered have been caused by other people's geldings or by mares (not intentionally), but much as I love my stallions (and anyone who has seen me with them will vouch for that), at the end of the day they are still - even in affection - capable of causing severe injury and I do not forget it.
Keren |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 7:11:29 PM
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Hi, this is Helen back now  Mr J has retired from AL now
Whilst Mr J is rather concieted and very opinionated (esp on this subject) he is a very accomplished Stallion Man and he has had extensive experience. FWIW he really does know what he is talking about.
Keren has very neatly made a very good point which I fully agree with. As Keren has posted further up Jamana-the-filly has been well brought up and has never been roughly treated or frightened by her handling. She does know her manners and she does respect your space. She has been raised in exactly the same way as Mr J and myself raise the TB's.
Personally I feel that this thread has come to it's natural conclusion and many things have been learnt along the way.
Helen  |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 7:35:14 PM
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| Originally posted by MinHe
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In this country at least, very few Arab stallions live their lives solely as sex machines. Most have other work to do under saddle - which, as well as the millennia of selection for temperament the breed has undergone - helps give the horse a different (and potentially more balanced) perspective on life.
Keren
POTENTIALLY more balanced perspective?
FAR more balanced I would say and this is the crux of one of the issues under discussion here. If we agree that a ridden Arab stallion is 'more balanced', safer and easier to be around than a tb on a commercial stud, could it not then be argued that the Arab was better managed?
( Look I also work in the tb breeding industry as part of my job, so I understand the pressures of numbers of mares, short covering season, money etc etc.) But it does call into question why commercial tb studs should be held up as the pinnacle to which we should all aspire. (I am sorry but I don't think it is.)
Keren I do though take your general point, and Mr J's, whose blood is clearly running cold at what he sees as amateurism and complacency, but we are talking about different breeds under different management systems. At the end of the day, we all agree ALL horses can be (lethally) dangerous, it is good that Delyth has reminded us of this. If I choose to take a certain approach to the horses that I treat and it has worked for me for 20 years as a vet and all my life as a person, I have every right to stick with it as nobody's neck is on the line except my own , I will just have to share the same epitaph as Lynda if it comes to that!
BTW Keren,many of the nice Arab stallions I was refering to cover all summer and are not ridden, though your argument re slection for temperament holds of course.
BTW Mr J, if I have been defensive of Arabs it is because my experience with them has led me to hold them in the highest regard, forgive me I am an Arab nut!!
Cheers
Lisa
Edited to say Helen, our posts crossed, you are right probably best left now |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 14 Feb 2010 7:40:43 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 09:45:48 AM
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yes I agree , all stallions should be ridden , unfortunately for mine , he is owned by an old crone who doesn't ride anymore, but he is perfectly safe to ride also . as with all things common sense should prevail, remember by far the most dangerous animal on this planet is man, and you can be killed by something as small as a mosquito
As with all things, use common sense .
my stallion is not unusual , there are many many like him. so no, this is not a personal crusade. 
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www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 10:06:03 AM
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Pauline, Kazzy wasnt aggresive all the time infact when the mood took him he was and still is a very loving loyal horse, if he was lay down in his stable I could go in and lie next to him and he would cuddle me, much to the shock of other people who said I shouldnt treat himlike a puppy but like a horse.
But.... if the mood took him he was a handful and could turn aggresive, by that I mean at about 7 - 8 months old he had the tackle and didnt know what to do with it and could get very frustrated and become quite naughty which I was told by my vet it was due to the retained testicle that *Could* be producing more testostorone than normal, it doesnt happen all the time but in some cases it does.
Anyway, at 12 months old he was gelded and apart from a few days after castration he is perfectly ok.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 11:44:58 AM
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This all brings about another question and that is, why people wouldn't be looking for the kind of stallion that has the best temperament all-round, and one that's ridden/shown under saddle happily throughout the covering season.
I recall Jean Peck telling me about how her lovely Dervatiw Gwyddion covered a mare practically between classes in the States! (Hope she doesn't mind me repeating this here - and correcting me if I have it slightly wrong. It went to show that he is a dream of a temperament as well as to ride and look at!) |
Roseanne |
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