| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Zenitha
Gold Member
 England
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 8:26:03 PM
|
Following on from recent revelations of popular stallions testing positive as carriers of CA, no doubt like many others I've been trawling through the lists trying to establish whether any of my horses could be at risk.
It was apparent from looking at the horses listed, that in some cases, despite offspring being listed as CA positive (carriers or affected), some stallions still do not appear to have been tested themselves. Whilst some stallions may no longer be with us, surely responsible breeders, on realising there is a possibility their stallion could be a carrier, should have them tested ?
Whilst I personally have no problem with SCID or CA carrying stallions standing at stud, surely we would gradually eradicate these awful diseases quicker (and without the casualties  if it became compulsory for ALL breeding stallions to be tested, with the results being made available to anyone considering using the stallion concerned ? It should also be compulsory for mare's to be tested prior to being covered by a carrier stallion.
I'm sure most responsible breeders already do this ......it is gratifying to see a number of UK breeders on that list, but surely, to really tackle this problem, the answer is to make testing compulsory for stallions ?
What do you peeps think ??
|
|
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 8:47:05 PM
|
I certainly think that every stallion that is available to the public should be tested AND the results made public. You wouldn't buy any other "product" without knowing what the problems might be!
Keren |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 8:47:08 PM
|
I think there are pros and cons to this..........why would someone with one stallion and a small breeding programme of their own horses who have never had an episode of scid or ca in that line be made to pay out what can be a fair amount of money to compulsory test their horse? Or a mare owner who wishes to use a stallion that is untested maybe could test their mare beforehand??
On the other hand its a great idea that stallions must be advertised or on a listing as being carriers or not, BUT as long as people don't lead a witch hunt to him or his ancestors?
My stallions are all scid clear, now that CA has become available for testing they will be tested for this, and the results will be available to anyone, although I don't generally stand my horses to outside stud it would be something for the resulting offspring and their buyers would need to know. Or for the occasional outside mare owner to know.
The other thing that slightly concerns me is that a new 'disease' seems to be found every 5 minutes and I fear that soon none of our arabians are going to be free from every single one.
|
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 9:17:27 PM
|
Time for compulsory testing?
Yes ... imho
Stallions and mares who are carriers but otherwise of high genetic merit could safely be bred from.
No CA or SCID foal need ever again be born, ie born to quickly become ill and then die.
The cost is not great, is proportionate with other costs incurred in breeding a foal and would fall if many more horses were tested.
A ' small' breeder who has a carrier stallion and a few mares may not have a carrier mare or perhaps may have just one. In the latter case many healthy foals both clear and carrier could be born before the roll of the dice meant that an affected foal be born ... with all the attendant suffering and heartache... why risk it?
CA and SCID are not new they have been recognised for many years, what is new, and wonderful, is that because of testing we are able to stop them manifesting themselves  .
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
|
|
Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 9:26:41 PM
|
Time for compulsory testing YES
make it as part of a stallion licence!!!
abby
 |
    
stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
RiffRaff
Silver Member
271 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2010 : 10:29:08 PM
|
I was wondering if you could help me as would like to get my boy tested for both SCID and CA and wondered if theres somewhere that tests for them both?  Also the ones that ive seen for SCID has always been american do they not test for it in this country? Thanks in advance to anyone can help me |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 01:38:13 AM
|
Riffraff, you can SCID test with Laboklin, www.laboklin.co.uk (UK) or Van Haeringen Laboratorium www.vhlgenetics.com (NL), or vetgen (I don't use them so don't know the web address), and almost certainly others I don't know of. I use Laboklin as I also use them for the genetic diseases PRA, CNM, EIC and narcolepsy with the dogs so know them well BUT they are all good.
For CA you can use vhlgenetics.com or UC Davis in the States who are also the lab that are developing the test.
For those who have spotted me as the public doubter of the CA test, I now have enough good explanation from UC Davis to believe that the test is valid, and am still waiting for the results for our 4 stallions (tests in progress).
However, can anyone please explain to me why it is the responsibility of the stallion owner AND NOT THE MARE OWNER INSTEAD to test? I will be pleased to hear your rational answers to that one! I did hint at that question on a previous CA thread, but noone seemed willing to pick it up.
Dom (stallions tested)
(edited to give the correct link for Van Haeringen! Dom) |
Edited by - Sirius on 24 Jan 2010 08:10:47 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 07:37:08 AM
|
I'm not sure its should be made public just because of the possibility of a witch hunt, but have compulsory testing & have a decent & fair price for doing so, & then if someone wants to breed to your Stallion then they can inquire if the particular stallion has had the test & if he was clear or not, it doesn't need to be made public!!
just so that everyone knows that its been compulsory to have a registered breeding animal tested for these genetic anomalies so feel safer in asking!! |
     
Last Picture Taken by Matt Bennet |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 09:28:05 AM
|
Sirius
I don't know why the onus is on the stallion owner to test and not the mare owner. However, the mare owner is paying a stud fee to use the stallion so it seems reasonable that the stallion owner could use some of the fee to test the stallion. Some of the popular stallions do make money for their owners.
I tested my mares and stallions for SCID last year, all negative thank heavens, and will test them for CA when I have scraped together the money. I don't stand my stallions at public stud as I don't have the time to give to visiting mares so I don't make any money from them but as I use them occasionally on my own mares I want to know their status.
Barbara |
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 09:45:52 AM
|
This is a difficult one.
On one hand I want to say yes, lets make it compulsory, but sadly the word "witch hunt" is gathering momentum. Not good.
People who choose to breed to a stallion often would never ask if he is CA/SCID Clear. Stallion owners how many have asked you this question last year or the year before about SCID? not many I bet.
Are they afraid or is it because they don't understand. It is a fact,
we have a society of fairly new people involved with breeding who are yet to understand why a stallion owner asks for a clitoral swab!
Making the test result public is another quandary. People who don't look at this as just a tool to help breed away from carriers are becoming quite obsessed and keeping clear of carrier stallions is not a good idea. Careful use of them is.
I am now testing my mares and wonder if one of them is a carrier will people still want her offspring?
I know the stallion is clear but this still does not make it fail safe if the mare is a carrier and not tested. So mares owners must take responsibility as well.
On paper it seems a good idea to make us all test all of our stock, but I know some who have tested but are reluctant to make it public for fear of the ever increasing witch hunt scenario. It will happen because people just will not take the time to read things properly and understand the long term view.
It cost me £31 or there abouts to send my sample to US Davis for testing. (A few bags of feed)
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 10:03:49 AM
|
Barbara,
Yes, I agree entirely that we should all be testing, but I would emphasise all. I have begun now that I believe the test to be valid.
I entirely disagree that mare owners can expect the stallion owners to take the responsibility from them.
We will know the CA status of our mares as well as stallions. Visitng mare owners should ask whether the CA status of the stallion is known, and use this to help them decide whether to use the stallion. They should also expect to be asked: "and what is the CA status of your mare?" as the stallion owner decides whether this is a responsible breeder and whether to accept the mare.
If you know you should ask the question, you should know that you should have tested yourself.
Dom |
Edited by - Sirius on 24 Jan 2010 10:11:07 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 10:08:08 AM
|
I have just sent a test away for WSA Charismma, he has been the sire of over 60 foals all have been fine , but until recently few of us knew about CA, I for one didnt. as soon as I knew about SCIDS I had him tested , he is clear.
could it be a few years down the line they will find another genetic fault in our horses and have to test for that also? dont get me wrong I think we need to do this, but no blame can be carried if and when horses are found to be carriers.
I paid a large stud fee to Use WH Justice , but I cant go blaming the owners because I have a carrier son, they didnt know at the time and when they knew they informed us. we humans carry genetic faults, but we dont go testing our OH's before mating with them do we? dont get this all out of proportion. |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 10:08:51 AM
|
This thread can only be a good thing and a way of making people aware of the problem, if it makes us stop and think before breeding surely it can only protect the Arabian breed ? If as some suggest ALL stallions should be compulsory tested then should this not be the same for ALL breeding mares??
We've been made aware of SCID & CA and hopefully some are acting on this but what's next ?
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 10:25:44 AM
|
I'd like to add, that as a stallion owner not only have I tested for SCID and CA. At the beginning of each season we have our stallion tested for EVA. This requires a blood test. Also we have 3 swabs done from his willy, this involves a sedative!! more expense
My pre season bill amounts to around £400 with the call out, blood test and sedation.
I do this because my stallion is at public stud.
The CA test is the cheapest of all to do! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 12:25:48 PM
|
That's interesting, looking on the Laboklin site, that they run SCID tests on buccal swabs. Does this mean that you can test your horse without vet involvement? That would worry me, if samples can declare a horse "SCID FREE" without a professional certification as to WHICH horse the sample was taken from........ just pondering. |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 12:46:58 PM
|
Great to see some really good points being raised on this issue  .
The only reason I mentioned stallions being tested as opposed to mares is that we have to start somewhere and obviously most stallions will produce far more offspring than the average mare In the meantime, I will be getting my mares tested ! Fingers crossed !
With regard to there being a 'witch hunt' for those tested positive....maybe I am living in cloud cuckoo land but are there really people out there who could be so ignorant and downright nasty ? Surely such behaviour would only show the culprits up for what they are ? Hey, where would we be without Versace, indeed our own Master Design ?
There should be no stigma attached to it, these are diseases that we now thankfully have the power to tackle and ultimately eradicate, we cannot sit back and in so doing allow more foals to die / be destroyed, and our gene pools become more and more contaminated. Whilst it is clearly not the fault of the owners of the likes of such as Maraaj and Justice, how many foals have they sired prior to testing that are potentially affected / carriers, further widening the spread of these diseases, if they in turn are not tested ?
We have the power to ensure this does not happen in the future, shouldn't we take it ?  |
|
Edited by - Zenitha on 24 Jan 2010 12:48:56 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 1:04:55 PM
|
Ella, your point is a good one. We don't have to use a vet to take the hair sample, it is all done self service and posted off. The place in the US even supplies a folded form to tape the hair sample to.
Because the CA list is ever growing I do think that if anyone decided to send another horses hair sample, or change the name, it would eventually come back to haunt them. The more horses that go on the list the jigsaw will soon expose them as being cheats.
Would anyone cheat, yes probably. Some say this happened when disclosing SCID results. You could send in another horse's name.
People will sink so low because money is involved long term.
Sorry I sound so cynical, I think it's my age.
|
Edited by - SueB on 24 Jan 2010 3:15:43 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 2:20:48 PM
|
I entirely agree with your post Zenitha .
I was going to use MD as an example but did not want it to be taken the wrong way, the whole point is that we can now SAFELY breed from carriers.
There is no justification for a witch hunt and the more open and honest we are ,the less the risk of witch hunts, which thrive on rumours, gossip and misinformation.
As for mares, of course they should be tested, I used an untested stallion last year, so tested the mare, all mare owners who wish to use carrier stallions should test them... obviously.
(Lynda I agree that we should keep this in proportion, and that there should be no stigma.Good for you for testing your stallion people can now use him with confidence and certainty which they can't an untested stallion.
Indeed,there are other 'Arab' diseases but only a couple that are as horrible as these two, the rest of them are relatively benign and wouldn't warrant compulsory testing, again these are not NEW diseases just that many people are newly aware of them.
(However the humans do need to be tested when one partner is a known carrier of a genetic disease. We are utter mongrels (most of us!) compared to our Arab horses so in that sense genetic recessives are less likey to manifest. This does occur though in more genetically homogenous rural communities ( or Royalty )and has been an issue for example for friends of mine.)
This is all by the by , surely it boils down to this ... we have the ability to breed from every horse living that is good enough to breed from in other respects , without ever breeding a foal doomed to a short miserable diseased life .....is there much else to discuss?
I appreciate that there are 'cons' but to me they are miniscule in comparison with the 'pros' and are often just based on self interest and £££ rather than welfare.
Cheers
Lisa
Having said all of that, I have just remembered a horrible case of a day old colicing foal that came to our clinic a couple of years ago. It had lethal white foal disease ( a non patent colon ). We put the poor thing down and then explained to the owner that breeding an Overo to Overo carried a 25% risk of this happening, he to my utter amazement, said 'yes I know I thought it was worth the risk!'!!! |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 24 Jan 2010 7:14:41 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Nedds71
Gold Member
Wales
679 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 2:40:43 PM
|
I think any responsible breeder, who has a mare or a stallion should test for both SCID & CA. Knowing that your animals are clear makes the choice of using outside stallions much easier.
I think starting with your stallion 1st makes sence purely because if he is clear you don't need to test your own mares unless going to an outside stallion.
I think the CA test is very important as a foal can be born with CA, and live a relatively normal life only showing mild, possibly unrecognised symtoms; but obviously pass it on if bred from, without anyone realising, until a severe case arises. Unfortunately should a foal be born with SCID its a very short life.
The more people become aware, the more testing will become the norm. Safe guard yourself by testing, because it is possible people will faulse test. But as Sue says the truth will out!
|
BJ
www.bmjarabians.co.uk
 |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 2:52:54 PM
|
Ella, there are so many opportunities to cheat and behave badly towards each other, that it makes some people too scared to go outside. Yes a self certifying system is open to cheating, but there comes a point where it isn't worth it.
For those who worry that a stallion owner would cheat you in order to get money out of you, you need to look at your assumptions: how much money do you think the stallion owner makes? I reckon that the cost to a mare owner of visiting us (apart from vet's fees for scanning etc.), is a touch less than DIY livery fees at the neighbouring yard plus normal feeding and care costs. Out of that come the costs of looking after the mare, stallion repair bills (your nice sweet girl may not be as sweet or nice as you think, but you aren't doing the same things to her as the nice boy), etc.
Quite honestly, if you don't trust the stallion owner, just walk away and find one you do trust. Don't be afraid, as someone posted earlier, to ask as many questions as you like. If people don't ask us about what we do, how we do it, how we look after the mare, health, etc, we are likely to assume they don't have a clue and are not fit to have responsibility for a pregnant mare, a foaling, a weaning programme or the guidance of the new foal's owners.
Trust. That's why I made a point of not taking the testing labs word for it when they seemed unconfident themselves of what they were offering, until they explained it properly - which they have. Now I trust the test, the testing is on - and we are taking the samples. We know which horse is which, and are very careful about not contaminating the samples.
Dom
edited to add:
No, I disagree with the idea that if your stallion is clear you don't have to test the mare. That is missing the point completely: Is the foal a carrier or isn't it? Will it breed in the future? Who will breed from it? Will you change your sincere plans to keep it for the rest of its life? If you do, will you prevent the new owner from breeding? How?
If testing matters, it matters. Otherwise it is just giving people a chance to shift the problem on to the next generation's owners. |
Edited by - Sirius on 24 Jan 2010 3:01:46 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LOU
Gold Member
England
637 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 3:11:34 PM
|
| After alot of worry and rumour that our Stallion Erald MONOGRAMM/EMIGRANTKA, was a CA Carrier, he was found to be clear of both SCID AND CA, Rumours are dangerous thing and had me worried, so safe and easy testing can be done at VHL it was a good price for dual test they kept me informed a fantastic service there really isnt an excuse not to test all mares or stallion. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2010 : 6:59:07 PM
|
Sorry Sirius, I take your point of course but personally I don't think that, having a clear stallion, not testing one's mares as Nedz71 suggested is 'missing the point completely'.
There are two levels to this, for both diseases..
a) Avoiding breeding an affected foal, ever.
b) Eliminating these genes from the population.
At the moment, I think most people agree that given all the other very important factors to consider when selecting breeding stock, the fact that some truly fantastic stallions are/have been carriers , the size of the genepool and the presence of a couple of other nasty genetic diseases, that we should be aiming for 'a)'. Avoiding breeding with all carriers, though theoretically ideal would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in genetic terms (imo).
I do agree, in fact, that mares should be tested, but I still feel that Nedz' argument that testing a stallion in the first instance has at least the merit of acheiving the aim of not breeding doomed foals.
Her point regarding the importance of CA testing in that this disease may more easily slip under the radar is also valid.
((I have also always argued that being proven under saddle should be an important aspect of selection of breeding stock, the pattern of expression of CA just reinforces this point.))
( sorry couldn't resist that!)
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 24 Jan 2010 7:20:52 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 09:31:08 AM
|
How many cases have there been here in the last 10 years? |
    
blue moon |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 10:20:47 AM
|
| I can only say that in my lifetime (65years) I have only ever seen one case of wobblers syndrome as it was called in the old days. I doubt there have been people who see it that often, but I could be wrong ! of course when it is seen it is heart breaking |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 11:04:39 AM
|
Compulsory testing is a must for me and I do not agree with the idea of keeping the result private. I believe that the status should be overstamped on the registration and also on the covering certificate.
Although not perfect this would go some way to protecting the unwary (or inexperienced) from the unscrupulous stud owner who opts not to disclose the status of their stallion.
Of course mares also should be tested.
As far as I am concerned these tests should form part of the registration which would also make it cheaper for all in the long run as presumably the AHS could negotiate a bulk discount with nominated labs.
As regards a withhunt compulsory testing would surely prevent this and with some of the most respected (and the richest breeders in the world being prepared to publicise their results the shame of your horse being a carrier is removed.
Yvonne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
SCID & CA - time for compulsory testing ?
