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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 8:04:25 PM
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Lisa, off topic I know, but I have a copy of Equitation in which Henry Wynmalen (hatless of course) is jumping his Arab entire over a single strand of barbed wire, the horse was so exact in his sight and training!
When I first got my Andalusian stallion I went for an afternoon just up the road from me, to Liz Walkinshaw's (then) Broadstone Stud where Demonstrator, Broadstone West Country, Stanhope's Diddicoy and several others were all standing at stud. It was astonishing watching them all, all handled by Vanessa and her team of grooms, and with an endless line of mares to be covered, mostly by AI (ran like a production line!) or occasionally natural covering. Not a man in sight! They used a Welsh stallion to tease the mares out in the field (using kicking boards) and a big cob 'jump' mare to collect semen for the insemination room.
The stallions were all nicely behaved, as were the Arab stallions at the stud down the road where I kept my Andalusian. The Arab stallions certainly knew what was happening and were much 'on their toes' but there was no dangerousness about them.
I know in cattle, there's a dichotomy in which the cows are most docile temperamentally (e.g. Jerseys) while the bulls are the most fearsome of the bovine breeds. I suspect the same goes for horse breeds. TBs stallions seem to be particularly difficult. |
Roseanne |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 8:08:12 PM
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Hi Jamama,
As I said and as the above post says, I am not talking about not using a stick to guide a horse during covering but yes , I will happily pm you with the names of studs who I know don't use a stick even when covering, you will have to wait a few days while I check with the owners if they mind me giving their names.
As I said in my previous post I took your original post to mean that one should carry a stick AT ALL TIMES with a stallion you did not specify during covering in this post.... edited to say...
I have just reread your post and see you have asked me to list commercial TB studs where stallion men don't use sticks to guide a horse during covering !!!
Why have you asked me to do this?... I would consider carrying a stick normal practice in this situation...
I was refering clearly and specifically to ARAB stallions, whom I have considerable experience with on family un studs ranging from the small to very large. I certainly have many times collected semen from Arab stallions using a tease mare where nobody is carrying a stick.
That, at the end of the day though not my point, my point is that an Arab stallion should be, in my opinion from my experience a gentle and kind tempered horse who is easy and pleasant to handle under normal circumstances without having to even think about carrying a stick. I would not consider using a stallion where this is not the case.
I have found tb stallions a lot less likable which is one of the many reasons that I am an Arab fan
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Feb 2010 10:55:18 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 8:59:45 PM
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ARGHHHH!
As I KEEP saying the original discussion did not pertain to covering which I agree is a highly charged situation. Even so I assure you that many times I have been involved with covering mares without a stick being carried, the horse is led by a bridle and is mannerly enough to wait until he is brought into position to cover the mare, I will video some this summer as my word is obviously not good enough.You are welcome to PM me in June to remind me.
This was posted in reply to a post from Delyth which seems to have been deleted. |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Feb 2010 9:01:51 PM |
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firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 9:22:12 PM
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I have limited experience with stallions / colts but the arab stallion that I know and adore is an absolute saint.I have ridden many miles on him and he is a superb riding horse looking after me and a very trustworthy conveyance,always many complimentary comments from people as they were riding upsides,at vettings of how lovely and well behaved he is.
He is a stallion and has covered and produced successful offspring he is unbelievably loyal to his owner,many instances I would never believe if I hadn't witnessed him with my own eyes .... is he unique ? No he is first and foremost a beautiful arabian and he just happens to be a stallion
on the other-hand I in my wisdom (not !!) ended up buying a little weanling sec a colt from local sale ..... well what a little monkey he turned out to be ended up calling him asbo !!!! just pure testosterone on legs at just 10 months old and quite evil when he wanted to be ,thought it fun to come at you walking on his back legs boxing with front legs and teeth barred ..... I have never had so many bruises and even though only a dwt was embarrassingly hard to handle ,even if I had wanted to keep him entire there is no way I would have considered him temperamentally suitable so only one decision to make was a call to my vet and now he is a very happy and lovely 2 yr old gelding that will make a lovely children's pony in the future
IMHO I think that all horses of what ever gender deserve our respect,care and guidance
ps
Hi Lisa Rachel |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 9:48:27 PM
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I have just reread your post and see you have asked me to list commercial TB studs where stallion men don't use sticks to guide a horse during covering !!!
Why have you asked me to do this?...
I have asked you to do this as TB breeding industry is an INDUSTRY and leads the way in breeding management. They operate on a purely professional basis with no corners cut or anything left to chance. Anything outside of this industry on a backyard basis can only be considered amateur imo.
As I said in my previous post I took your original post to mean that one should carry a stick AT ALL TIMES with a stallion you did not specify during covering
That is what my original post did mean. To include covering, but also to and from the field, for the vet/farrier etc.
In OH's 15 years of being a professional stallion man and his many visits to other studs and stallion parades, most stallion men liked their horses, but NONE trusted them.
I would like to be shown where I have said about having a stick to 'hit a naughty horse' and not as an aid? If you carry a whip out riding do you feel you MUST use it? Or is it there as an aid SHOULD YOU NEED IT? Similarly, when you get on your horse to ride, do you put a helmet on first? That is what professional stallion men do when they go to get their horses, pick up their bridle and stick. That is a FACT.
Lisa Rachel, I'll asume as you are a vet you are a professional person, perhaps you may like to learn something, can I suggest you go to a stallion parade at either Newmarket or Doncaster and observe the stallion men. Perhaps ask their opions on carring a stick and about how they could just 'trust' their horse. If it's the latter they would very quickly end up badly injured, or worse.
OH thinks that the comments from some people on here have no real stallion experience at all. |
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Anne C
Gold Member
United Kingdom
886 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 10:06:45 PM
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I agree I dont have any 'real stallion experience', I just posted my own experiences with my own horse who happens to be a stallion and a lovely one at that but then I'm biased! |
Anne |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 10:15:50 PM
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I would like to be shown where I have said about having a stick to 'hit a naughty horse' and not as an aid? If you carry a whip out riding do you feel you MUST use it? Or is it there as an aid SHOULD YOU NEED IT? Similarly, when you get on your horse to ride, do you put a helmet on first? That is what professional stallion men do when they go to get their horses, pick up their bridle and stick. That is a FACT.
I never said that you said anything about hitting a naughty horse!!!
I don't carry a stick out riding
Lisa Rachel, I'll asume as you are a vet you are a professional person, perhaps you may like to learn something, can I suggest you go to a stallion parade at either Newmarket or Doncaster and observe the stallion men. Perhaps ask their opions on carring a stick and about how they could just 'trust' their horse. If it's the latter they would very quickly end up badly injured, or worse.
I have been many times to parades and sales at Newmarket, and would myself carry a stick in that situation with a tb stallion, of course I would.
OH thinks that the comments from some people on here have no real stallion experience at all.
Well I have.
For the last time I was not talking about thoroughbred stallions I was merely vouching for the good temper of the MANY Arab stallions that I have worked with and known and owned(1)over many years.
I fully accept and agree that a tb stallion in a covering situation or in a parade with other stallions is another kettle of fish.
Hi Debbie, will you be out on Jaz this year... Pembrey? Brechfa?
Lindylou did you get my pm re Bambooki?
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Feb 2010 10:29:22 PM |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 10:33:31 PM
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For the last time I was not talking about thoroughbred stallions I was merely vouching for the good temper of the MANY Arab stallions that I have worked with and known and owned(1)over many years.
I fully accept and agree that a tb stallion in a covering situation or in a parade with other stallions is another kettle of fish.
And i'm not talking exclusively about TB stallions either. ALL stallions of WHATEVER breed have the POTENTIAL to be deadly. Even the good tempered ones. It doesn't mean that they will be but they could be. People are foolish if they think otherwise. |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 11:04:40 PM
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Believe me Jamama I am only too well aware how dangerous horses can be, I however will speak as I find, and I find Arab stallions to be particularly easy and pleasant in the vast majority of cases.
I am sorry that this exchange has gone on so long, I respect your views.
Lisa
PS I am actually involved in the tb breeding industry as well and industry it certainly is, though I wouldn't consider it to be at the forefront of breeding technology, AI isn't even permitted as you know, with the consequent transport of very young foals at foot all over Britain and Ireland, Rhodococcus popping up all over the shop etc.
Hey Roseanne ,
My copy doesn't have that picture !... maybe the 1st edition fell foul of health and safety regs!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Feb 2010 11:17:17 PM |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 08:58:27 AM
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So, what can we do to make the chances of a stallion being civilised and content higher?
Dom |
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Emma Maxwell
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
222 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 09:04:06 AM
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Stallions vary hugely in temperament !! As a rule when we led stallions in and out at Lodge Farm, and there were about 30 I knew personally, you carried a stick. We led stallions past each other and past mares and past tractors with big bales etc Your only use of the stick was that it was visible to the horse, and sometimes you jiggled it up and down a bit as a warning not to dive off sideways to see mare,or have a discussion with another boy, which I found was the most likely misbehaviour. I prefer to lead yearlings with a stick for the same reason - I want them to learn to walk in a straight line at a safe distance from me and a stick helps guide them. Not every stallion really needed to led with a stick I would say the Kazra line stallions Maleik and Persimmon and the Polish stallions were the most polite and least likely to take advantage but we tended to lead them with one anyway so they never got tempted. Most stallions are well aware when you are paying attention and when they might be be able to get away with something. The only stallions we did not lead with a stick were those that from the US where a stick tended to put them on edge and was more likely to cause a confrontation.
Jealousy is a strong reason for a stallion to attack, and you need to think extremely carefully when you have multiple stallions about a stabling pattern and an exercise routine that does not wind up the horses at the top of the pecking order. If you get it very wrong you will have an accident. There are occasions when I have been flown at with intent, and once knocked over, but the reason was blindingly obvious and the experience not repeated. If it is a one off with obvious reason, then it is not the total summation of a horses character. I know people who have had one stallion for a few years and then buy another one who got all the attention have terrible difficulty with their first one. However stallions I distrust are are those that want to be very dominant but are not very secure and combine their machoness, with fretting tendencies and an inability to settle. These horses are on edge the whole time and very oversensitive to perceived threats or slights. I don't like stallions like this - I think the ability to settle in all situations makes for the safest horse.
It has become apparent more recently that collection for freezing has possibly has a negative effect on some stallions personalities, and they become more aggressive. I am not sure why but too seeral stallion wners have commented that their horse has not been the same since collection. For some it a just a couple of weeks of being stroppy ,for others the effect is more longlasting.
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 09:45:20 AM
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Of the six stallions we bred over the years......feel I have to speak up for Thoroughbred stallions. Our homebred TB was the most laid back horse one could ever imagine!! Rarely acted like a stallion (except when the mare was a big shire type.....he adored the big girls and was always keen to cover them) Otherwise....it was a case of "dont hurry me" Would spend so long talking and licking, even the mares would get bored and want him to get on with the job!!! He was absolutely amazingly gentle and an ideal stallion for maiden or shy ladies.
He was an excellent riding horse and was eventually castrated as an eleven year old, and sold to a friend, who had wanted him for some years. He proved a brilliant bold hunter for several years but sadly at eighteen years old, a hunting accident, ended his life.
Our Anglo stallions, all proved easy to handle when covering. The only stallion we bred who was very sharp, was the 14.2hh PBA Riding Pony. Whilst being a gentleman in all other respects.....in the covering yard, he knew best!!! and often questioned OH`s leadership....though never in an aggressive or dangerous manner (he just wanted to charge up to the mare and rape her) He did eventually calm down, but was always very keen.
We lost our wonderful old boy last year, so now only have his nephew who is twelve years and is a complete gentleman stallion. He is also the last boy we shall keep.....as OH now getting rather too long in the tooth to train another stallion.
Do think that having bred our own stallions, the job has been much easier as bonding trust and respect has been developed from birth.
Also our stallions have their own paddocks next to the ladies and spend most of the year out...when stabled, again, with the ladies all around them, equals happy stallions!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 09:50:51 AM
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Perhaps the difference in the stallions Jamana knows, and others on here know, is the fact that the Jamana ones are on truly commercial yards. When the industry is more important than the individual animal, and the "professionals" in charge of them think they know it all, in my experience, the animals---in whatever industry---tend to suffer.I know of professional gun dog trainers who routinely use electric shock collars, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.
I freely admit I do not have a huge personal experience of stallions, but the one that I did know very well indeed was a TB. He had been a racehorse, belonging to a wealthy local family, and when he broke down racing---blew tendons on both front legs--instead of killing him as advised, they brought him to their home and nursed him back to health. They got him sound, though of course, not fit to race, so they put him to stud--at home, thenmselves, never having had any more equine experience than their kid's ponies. By the time I met him, when they kindly let me have summer grazing for my mare, he had a string of his own mares, and covered several visiting mares every year. A nicer person would have been hard to find, and, whether he was out in his field or in his stable, he was 100% safe to go in beside, whether it was a day he was covering or not---he was a real people horse. He was stabled next to his mares and was lead everywhere in a head collar, with never a hint of a stick used to threaten him.
Can I just clarify "stick" here? In the original article about the man who was killed it said he usually took a big stick in with him---not a schooling aid then. I use a "stick" when schooling my own horse, but it is purely an aid to TOUCH him in places I can't reach as an extension of my arm--I would never hit him with it. There are sticks, and then there are sticks
Jamana said " Any real stallion man would carry a stick, they do not need to use it as the horse knows that if he tries his luck the stick is there EVERY time."
If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Control by aggression, and you will get aggression back. |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 10:05:11 AM
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As I have worked in various livery yards in the past you do come across the occasional dangerous horse, the last job a couple there bought a horse unseen off the Internet foolish I know, when it arrived all 17.2 of it and being a Irish Draught the delivery driver took it in the stable and as soon as he turned round it flew at him teeth barred, he managed to get out without being bitten.
The couple who had bought it couldn't get into the stable with it for if you went within two feet of the door it would come at you, any sane person would have sent it back anyway a few weeks later the guy went in to bring it out of the stable and it flew at him got hold of his stomach and lifted him off the ground, it was horrific blood was coming out of his stomach and he was rushed to hospital, understandably he had to stay in for a few days.
They then couldn't understand why I wouldn't turn it out for them, I don't think anyone should be expected to handle a horse like that unless its there own, I know their vet told them to have it PTS and they have to trim his feet themselves as no farrier will attempt to shoe it.
I also couldn't believe they advertised for a sharer to share it I would have warned them off if I had seen them.
Edited to say: I just wanted to say that I posted this story just so it would highlight how irresponsible some people can be, The people who had this horse in my eyes really had no idea of the danger they were in and then proceeded to put other people in danger, In the past when I have worked with aggressive horses myself and the other staff were always very careful and we would work in pairs so if anything happened we were not alone. I also agree with allot of people on here when they say a horse is not born aggressive it is made that way unfortunately by cruelty.
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Edited by - pinkvboots on 09 Feb 2010 10:22:47 AM |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 10:13:38 AM
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I deleted my post as I purely started this topic and added the Pat Parelli piece as a warning for those people who are thinking of taking on an entire. It is not easy and it is dangerous and in my opinion you never, ever let your guard down. I'm getting exasperated by it now and feel if a novice wanders in, some of these posts could be viewed as dangerously amateur and seriouly misleading.
I've just read Emma's post whose words I hope people will heed with her wealth of knowledge and experience. Please !! |
Edited by - Delyth on 09 Feb 2010 10:22:41 AM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 10:21:06 AM
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Agree there Zan. Stallions on large commercial studs are just "money machines" to those in charge of them
As with the owners of the TB in your post, when we bred our Thoroughbred stallion, OH and myself had no personal experience of stallion handling and management.....and I would challenge any professional handler, to have made a better job. Scinnamon was the happiest, gentlest horse one could wish for.
My OH once transported a TB mare to a big commercial stud for covering. Whilst waiting for the Owner to book in the mare and paperwork etc., Tony was looking over the fence at one of the stallions in his paddock. The horse approached and as he got nearer, suddenly charged, teeth bared, ears flat to his head, neck low in attack mode...OH luckily leapt backward out of reach of the teeth. Was a big shock to Tony having only the experience of our own boys!!
Such a shame that a lot of commercial stallions do not lead a happy life
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 11:48:39 AM
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Hear Hear to Delyth and Emma
We are novices and are lucky that the stallion we bred is generally very good but starting around now I will use a stick, not to hit him but as Emma has said as an aid, once the summer comes the stick will go away again.
Although he is good I have learn;t to be on my guard as as Emma has said he knows if I am distracted and will sometimes take liberties. |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 12:08:36 PM
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I think Emma Maxwell has managed to make my point in a much more effective way I agree completely with her first paragraph in particular and the whole post in general.
I don't have much experience with AI (as Lisa Rachel points out ) and I haveonly covered with one dummy trained stallion to my knowlege, he was well behaved but inclined to bite hard to hold on to his mares. He had only covered dummies up to that point, but was never agressive with the mares. Incidentaly Lisa Rachel I didn't say TB industry was at the forefront of breeding technology but breeding management. I don't think that could be argued with.
Jamana said " Any real stallion man would carry a stick, they do not need to use it as the horse knows that if he tries his luck the stick is there EVERY time."
If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Control by aggression, and you will get aggression back.
Re-read Emma's post, perhaps you will take her word over mine? I do not need to be agressive with a stick, it just makes my point more firmly, VISUALLY.
Agree there Zan. Stallions on large commercial studs are just "money machines" to those in charge of them
That may be true of the people that actually OWN the horse (though anyone who knows about Sheikh Momhammed sitting through the night with Dubai Millenium when he was dying with Grass sickness may argue differently ) but in general the men who look after the stallions like them.
The man who looked after Shergar still has a tear in his eye when he thinks of what happend to that poor horse. The man who looked after Rainbow Quest for his whole stud career was virtually inconsolable that the horse died when the man was on holiday and he wasn't with 'the old boy' at the end. OH talks about his favourite stallion (the compeletly rampant one) and is very aware it is approaching the 20th anniversary of his death (whilst covering a mare incidentally, but got her in foal!) All have stories about their boys and many have horses they haven't liked. OH was not sorry when one of his Ch sires had to be put down at 26 as the horse was calculatingly agressive all the time.
As for visiting a commercial stud with agressive horses, was it The National Stud? I don't know what they do to them there but they alway seem to have a real nutter. Cockney Rebel is the current difficult one. I have visted many commerical TB studs, Cheveley Park had a stallion (Primo Dominie) who loved you to hold his tongue! He came over to the gate whilst all us students stood looking at him and the stud groom hed his tongue for him the whole time. Then he flapped it at us and we all had ago! Polar Falcon loved to lick you. At the Royal Studs Sandringham, Royal Applause was quite happy for people to walk up to him and pat him loose in the field. Motivator (2005 Derby winner) was pleased to get patted leaving the covering shed and talking to him over the door. Double Trigger got loose at a stallion parade and was caught as he stopped to 'chat' to one of the spectators!
I do think many people have very strange ideas about the racing industry, but it cannot be argued that they are the pinnicle of professional horse management. |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 12:47:44 PM
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This is my first and last post on this forum as I am Jamana's husband,People on here to me have very little idea what is really involved with proper stallion management,It is true TB stallions are pure money making machines,some of these sires can generate many millions of pounds income each year.
I can assure you all that only the best management and care goes into looking after these stallions,the Professional 'Stallion Man' employed on these studs will ALWAYS carry a stick when leading or covering,I've heard some on here say they 'TRUST' their stallions...........this to my mind only indicates how naive they are.Just a few years ago a Stallion Man on a Herefordshire stud was feeding his sire which he had looked after for about ten years,the same routine each day that evening the stallion attacked him for no reason the man had his shoulder broken along with ribs and a punctured lung,the horse then started to eat his food as normal,THAT IS WHAT STALLIONS CAN DO only a novice would be complacent with a stallion.Once they start covering you have no idea how his temperament will be affected. That is an absolute fact. BTW in my professional capacity I have looked after 9 Top Class TB stallions on the leading stud in Britain including European Champion Racehorse Ardross. |
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Edited by - Jamana on 09 Feb 2010 4:39:51 PM |
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Rui
AL Admin
6761 Posts |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 1:13:21 PM
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| Not guilty to the above.....unless Rui can hear the expletives I've been shouting at my laptop |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 1:23:12 PM
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| Men !! Where's your stick to set him straight !! |
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Reality Check
