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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2010 :  10:51:12 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Always carry a stick with stallions ? and never trust them ? ( please dont tell Charismma this! he has been getting it wrong all these years )

Yes, Always carry a stick and never trust them. Lindylou, you are obv lucky and have one of the good guys, but you can never be complacent.

Whilst Arabs may be more gentle and biddable as stallions, I think that how these horse lives are managed is different as a rule to TB racehorse sires and this has an impact on their behaviour. I am NOT meaning the TB stallions are shut in 24/7 as that is not the case, but they are rock hard fit and need to cover 3-4 mares each day. The amount of testosterone produced through the season and levels in their systems thorugh that time will have an impact on behaviour. Compare to most Arab sires who I would imagine have a normal in/out routine and are paddock fit, cover perhaps 15-20 mares maximum

Juddmonte in Newmarket keep their stallions out in the paddock 24/7 in the summer, only coming in to do their work and cover, they are laid back, *for stallions* and that is the caveat that goes with all entires.

This brings me to another point, though perhaps it is another thread entirely NO horse is 'too valuable' to go out. I cannot imagine there is a more valuable horse in this country than either Dansili or Oasis Dream,both worth circa £20-25m, both at Juddmonte, both out 24/7 throughout the summer..............

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Cate
Platinum Member

Scotland
1785 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  07:23:36 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cate to your friends list Send Cate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How true! I have always had my stallions out every day. My black stayed out 24/7 next to his mares summer and some of the winter until the weather was too bad to keep any of them out, but even then out every day and in at night. The chap I have now hated going out when I first got him, now if he does not get out (due to the ice and snow we had) he is one grumpy boy.

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jaybird
Gold Member


France
1192 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  08:06:41 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaybird to your friends list Send jaybird a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi

I have known many stallions and owned one that was an absolute angel I never carried a stick when leading him anywhere, I have also owned a nasty mare that definately had no cyst or hormone problems just an attitude and she could do serious damage to the unsuspecting person and tried on many occassions, with her the making was 'work' and she thrives on it but she could not tell anybody...only my 'bl**dy stupid' determination to find out her problem saved her from a worse fate..my point is they are all different and need to be viewed as such, I kiss Guinness daily..but I never forget he's a horse.

Beryl
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  08:26:49 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh dear , well someone should have told Bambooki also, my old stallion, who I trusted with childrn and knew he would never hurt a fly, both stallions were /are filled with testosterone . Bambooki had an unkind begining but he never held it against us humans who he loved





www.dreamfield-arabians.com

Edited by - LYNDILOU on 08 Feb 2010 08:37:05 AM
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lisa rachel
Gold Member

Wales
831 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  08:29:14 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lisa rachel to your friends list Send lisa rachel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[right]Originally posted by Jamana

Always carry a stick with stallions ? and never trust them ? ( please dont tell Charismma this! he has been getting it wrong all these years )

'Yes, Always carry a stick and never trust them. Lindylou, you are obv lucky and have one of the good guys, but you can never be complacent.'


After reading this on my way to bed last night I started counting through the purebred Arab stalllions I have been the vet for over the years, I don't mean just met at an endurance competition but knew over some time, vaccinated etc etc, I got to 31 before I thouht of one who I didn't like much and even he was just very grumpy and snappy rather than vicious, of the others all were /are pleasant and many extremely kind and sweet.

I am sure Charissma is a lovely person but I don't think Lynda is unusually lucky.


I would say any ARAB stallion who needs a stick to be handled is not a good representative of the breed and should be cut (allowances for previously abused horses of course providing the improve in time), if not ...where is the enjoyment anyway in keeping a hores you don't trust?
Cheers
Lisa

lisa
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s.jade
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
2401 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  08:49:57 AM  Show Profile  Send s.jade an AOL message  Click to see s.jade's MSN Messenger address Bookmark this reply Add s.jade to your friends list Send s.jade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding carrying a stick for a stallion, I never do with my boys at home, but ALWAYS at shows, in public or when ridden. Yes my boys are well behaved and polite, but who's to say everyone is as sensible, or that anyone else's horses are? It's always a back up defense against even another horse having a go in the ring too?
I used to take my mother's TB stallion to Pony Club when I was just 12, he was an ex Advanced event horse, so knew the ropes, and we made sure he had red tail ribbons, and we told other riders in lessons he was entire. But the amount of times others still rode up his back end, or let their horses try sniff noses is unbelieveable!
Our stallions have to be sweet, as there are kids on the yard, neither of our boys would ever nip, or kick, or even so much as push at you. Any uncertainties in their nature and they are gelded, end of.
So sad what's happened with this poor chap and his horse, but from reading the detail, and the stallion being described as "mean" maybe he should have been cut when that mean-ness was discovered, to avert a tragic end for him and his owner?
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Delyth
Gold Member

United Kingdom
1425 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  09:23:47 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Delyth to your friends list Send Delyth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5313008/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

Just found the original Horse & Hound article which with it follows with some interesting reactions.

How can anyone contemplate not carrying a stick with a stallion when you are covering ? How controlled are your breeding methods ?
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  09:50:49 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes of course I carry a stick when covering , simply because I need to have control of the situation , his mind is often on the job in hand and he sometmes forgets I am there , but I dont use it, again it is a guide, hold it in front and he stays behind it, hold to the side and he moves over .


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  11:42:20 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes of course I carry a stick when covering , simply because I need to have control of the situation , his mind is often on the job in hand and he sometmes forgets I am there , but I dont use it, again it is a guide, hold it in front and he stays behind it, hold to the side and he moves over .

Exactly, my point entirely. I have neer said you need to use the stick every time, but have it with you if you need it. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it is my theory in many things.

How can anyone contemplate not carrying a stick with a stallion when you are covering ? How controlled are your breeding methods ?

I am also amazed how many people cover with nothing in the horses mouth.

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jaybird
Gold Member


France
1192 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  12:05:36 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaybird to your friends list Send jaybird a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say any ARAB stallion who needs a stick to be handled is not a good representative of the breed and should be cut (allowances for previously abused horses of course providing the improve in time), if not ...where is the enjoyment anyway in keeping a hores you don't trust?

Well there would be very few in the gene pool then! I agree there's alot out that should be gelded but not for the reason of not being able to control them without a stick!!

Delyth that made interesting reading... Wow!

Beryl

Edited by - jaybird on 08 Feb 2010 12:15:32 PM
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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  12:25:15 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That comment on the link posted about the horse kneeling on a man is how the Mill Reef son attacked his man. The man was found in the stable with Milford kneeling on him and biting him.

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Delyth
Gold Member

United Kingdom
1425 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  12:32:25 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Delyth to your friends list Send Delyth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is exactly what happened with Sinan Bey - he kneeled on me and attacked. The thing that struck home with this intial story is that they threw stones at the horse to divert his attention, again, exactly the same. The girls threw brick ends at Sinan Bey. Oh, and the noise he made - dear God don't ever under estimate a stallion or a colt.

A point I want to stress is there are many complete novices coming across this discussion. Some of these comments are, to me a stallion owner and handler, far too general and complacent.

Edited by - Delyth on 08 Feb 2010 12:33:57 PM
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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  12:48:17 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
dear God don't ever under estimate a stallion or a colt.

A point I want to stress is there are many complete novices coming across this discussion. Some of these comments are, to me a stallion owner and handler, far too general and complacent.


Echo this competely Delyth

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Delyth
Gold Member

United Kingdom
1425 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  12:58:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Delyth to your friends list Send Delyth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/video/stallion-behavior

Interesting reading :)

I'm about to start a young colt to work hence I'm quite passionate about the whole discussion. It is heartening to read about the stallion successes but they are that way because someone put the work in. I will carry a stick with Bedawi, he will have something in his mouth and I won't be miles away on the end of a lunge line letting him dive in and do exactly what he wants. There will be mutual respect !!
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  1:01:42 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As with all things you obviously use your own common sense anyone just coming on here and finding a complacent attitude ( of which I think is only me), would not then go out and buy a stallion thinking them all the same.
I am not going to start treating my stallion differently now, carrying a stick at ALL times as you said I must do, we have a relationship based on trust, as I said before if he then attacks and kills me you can say told you so , in the mean time I will continue to trust him and he will continue to trust me. it has worked for 12 years so far


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Anne C
Gold Member


United Kingdom
886 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  1:05:14 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Anne C to your friends list Send Anne C a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I was attacked by a stallion on two separate occasions, (same stallion) which resulting in hospitalisation and it frightened the life out of me. I'm just so grateful for my kind boy who re-built my confidence, a bit like Delyth and Ffatal I guess. They can be wonderful and as i said before I don't carry a stick with him but that's just at home. Not all of them are. My boy is 15 next month and I can honestly say I know where he has been for everyday of his life. He has always been treated like a 'horse' but we have never forgotten that he is a stallion and treated as such.




Anne
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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  1:19:17 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As with all things you obviously use your own common sense anyone just coming on here and finding a complacent attitude ( of which I think is only me), would not then go out and buy a stallion thinking them all the same.

Lynda, you would be surprised. Do not over-estimate peoples common-sense! If someone has no working experience of stallions but has visited well run studs with well handled stallions, then reads about how easy and trustworthy others stallions are, where do they get the idea of how dangerous they can be?

Unfortunaly there is no test to pass to be able to ahndle a stallion, the same as breeding a colt does not automatically qualifiy you to be able to handle a breeding stallion. Someone who has bred a lovely colt, (who sent the mare away to be covered ) manages him really well for 3-4 years, teaches him manners, copes with his nippiness, and his teenage try-ons can find themselves with a VERY different prosepct once he starts covering. I know this happens, I cover with two stallions whose owners found themselves in exactly that situation.

Again, a colt is different to a stallion. OH's rampant horse was a complete dote when he was in training. His racing lad came to visit him after he had been at stud for 5 years and couldn't beleive it was the same horse. He had been the quietest horse on the yard and would let children pat him, now he was a sex-crazed monster! He said even the horses face had changed, the 'Lad' could not get over the difference.

OH and myself are like a local Covering SWAT team! We do 8 stallions for 6 different owners. We do all coverings for these stallions because the owners cannot cope or have less success on their own. Some days in the season are manic, going from one yard to the next covering mare after mare, all around our full time jobs. I have started carring my own covering equipment as most places have no safe stuff. So we arrive with our two chifney's lunge reins and my own loooonnng twitch, get pointed to which mare told which boy and off we go I think my children have seen most things now

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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  1:31:33 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW 3 are pure bred Arabs.

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Anne C
Gold Member


United Kingdom
886 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  1:42:19 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Anne C to your friends list Send Anne C a Private Message  Reply with Quote

What I found really hard was when we first started breeding there was no help available to us. Being novice stallion owners/breeders we could certainly have done with some 'training'. We were really lucky and we're all still here to tell the tale.


Anne
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member


England
539 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  2:16:04 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Tracey@ET to your friends list Send Tracey@ET a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Delyth , i totally agree with you in all aspects regarding stallions they are very much individuals and some you can trust more than others, i have two at home these days but have had four at one time, quite a handful but all different and all bred by myself so same treatment (kind and caring) the two i have now, one love's to live out most of the time and the other is very much like Ffatel he likes his routine and if its bad weather like heavy rain he objects to being put out. I to will lead carrying a stick it is a good habit to get into when handling/leading colts and stallions.

It does not mean we beat them, its a schooling aid thats all. In fact Ssinsation sometimes will carry the stick in his mouth while we are getting ready to go out but i guess he takes after his dad a bit of a comedian and a sweet boy, but i will always lead him with it.

We should never get complacent, the man in the incident forgot his stick that day and lost his life.



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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  2:37:57 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish we could go back to the days at shows when stallion handlers carried a STICK. Not a long, thin whip - a short, stout STICK. An excited stallion will not necessarily feel the lash of a whip (and a lot of damage can be done that way). but a hearty prod with a stick seems to get through and bring them back to earth.

To me, a stallion handler with a stick is the TRUE professional.

Keren
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BabsR
Platinum Member


England
2790 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  4:00:10 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BabsR to your friends list Send BabsR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Over the many years, we have bred and kept entire, six boys. All were covering stallions, completely handled and trained by my OH

None were bitted, and all had their own "covering headcollar" stout leather with a long lead rein, which was chain half way down.

Tony always carried a good thick bamboo cane (not long) The boys knew that when the cane was placed between them and the mare, they could only smell and lick their woman. When Tony removed the cane....it was their signal to mount and cover the mare. Maybe we have been lucky enough to have bred boys with excellent temperaments.

Two of the boys have remained entire all their lives, whilst the others were gelded at various ages (through no fault) and sold to become top class competition/riding horses and have wonderful long term homes

However nice or famous their pedigree......would NEVER EVER keep an entire unless he had an impeccable temperament. Would love to have kept OH`s 16.2 Anglo, Oscar (Sunray Scelebrity/Sunray Sapphire) as a stallion as he is superb....but....is very self opinionated (not nasty or aggressive in any way) but adding stallion testosterone to all that power and size...might just have been too much, and so he is a very happy much loved gelding and has been for sixteen years

Tony never carries a stick when he goes into the stallion paddocks with feed or to catch them and never uses their covering headcollars when generally leading them to and from the yard.....they DO know the difference!! However, if he is away longer than normal......I always go and check all is well...a stallion always has to be regarded with respect and caution, even if your best friend.

Babs

www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk

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lisa rachel
Gold Member

Wales
831 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  6:42:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lisa rachel to your friends list Send lisa rachel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jaybird

I would say any ARAB stallion who needs a stick to be handled is not a good representative of the breed and should be cut (allowances for previously abused horses of course providing the improve in time), if not ...where is the enjoyment anyway in keeping a hores you don't trust?

Well there would be very few in the gene pool then! I agree there's alot out that should be gelded but not for the reason of not being able to control them without a stick!!
Beryl


Well as I said in my post there have been at least 31 covering stallions in my area of South West Wales that I have known personally who certainly don't need a stick, so it wouldn't narrow the gene pool much would it? I think Lynda's would be safe to remain entire too by the looks of those lovely photos.
The implication in Jamama's original post was that a stick should be carrried at all times, I would not want to use a stallion for whom this was the case and believe me that still leaves an awful lot of stallions to choose from!!

In the time that I have written this I have thought of another 5 Arab stallions who I know personally who are complete gentlemen in all circumstances.

A quick quote from Henry Wynmalen in 'Equitation'
''Although stallions of most other breeds are hardly suitable as riding horses, this limitation does not apply to the Arab Entire, who is a delightful ride and can be trusted in company to display the best of manners.''

I am at the sharp end in terms of covering as I have many times collected semen from a large number of Arab stallions using a mare ( not dummy) so am not speaking from misty eyed sentimentalism but practical experience of having my neck on the line. I maintain that an Arab stallion should be a kind, gentle and respectful horse as have been the VAST majority of those that I have worked with over many years. The Arab's sweet nature is a breed characteristic and in my opinion should remain so.

cheers
Lisa

PS Jamama totally agree with you re turn out.
Babs R well said
PPS If we started posting links to all the countless stories of the torture, rape, murder and atrocities that humans subject each other to we wouldn't leave our homes without being armed to the teeth.
Yes horses are large and potentially dangerous but they are also, particularly Arab horses generally kind and gentle, breeding for good temper and kind handling are the best assurance of safety, if they really mean it a stick is neither here nor there.

lisa

Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Feb 2010 7:26:08 PM
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Jamana
Gold Member


England
682 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  7:21:11 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jamana to your friends list Send Jamana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lisa, as you have a working and professional knowledge of stallions, studs and covering could you please tell me of any bona fide (TB) professional stud in England Ireland France Wales or US that the stallion men do not carry a stick at all times????

And I mean CARRY a stick NOT bash the horse repeatedly with one, as some people think is the thing to do with entires. That is the sign of a true amateur, a lot of stick waving and hitting round the head. A professional would never do this or need to do so. Any real stallion man would carry a stick, they do not need to use it as the horse knows that if he tries his luck the stick is there EVERY time.

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ella
Gold Member


United Kingdom
786 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2010 :  7:53:36 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ella to your friends list Send ella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's a world of difference between carrying a stick to 'hit' a 'naughty' horse & carrying a stick to direct the movement of a horse.

Using a stick to give aids from a safe distance is very sensible.
Carrying a stick with the attitude of needing it to keep the horse 'in his place' is asking for trouble.

It's never the equipment, but the people using it.......



"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B.
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