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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 09:57:13 AM
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[right]Originally posted by jaybird
''Hi all
This is a good time to remind all that they are large powerful and sensitave animals...animals not people.''
Of course horses are animals, so are people!!
Of course their needs and priorities are different to ours in some respects, but both species are social mammals that naturally live in small related groups, we do have quite a lot in common, which is why we can easily develop a friendship with a horse.
There are some valid (if fairly obvious) points in that article.
However, the whole food dominance issue is actually an artifact of the way we keep horses, in a natural state food is not available in buckets or racks or pliles of haylage but grows out of the ground so conflict over food is rare. Friendships and affiliations are at least as strong an influence in horse societies as are dominance hierarchies.
I think that to say jealousy is a human not horse emotion is very surprising from anyone who has spent much time with horses.
I had a gelding (for 27 years) who when retired would become very agitated and jealous when I rode other horses... this was about handling and riding not food. He was not at all food orientated and if anything it was a job to make sure he ate up all his food as he was easily distracted and highly strung, Harry's mare Sealeah becomes absolutely incensed when he works another horse... even if she has food in front of her, and will often 'have a go' at the other horse when he is returned to the field.
I think horses are actually a lot more complicated and emotional than often given credit for.
On the other hand I think it is quite easy to meet their needs:
Ad lib water and forage, plenty of space, friends and shelter as necessary.
( Obviously as well as hoof care vaccination and parasite control)
Equally I think if horses are given basic ground rules ie NEVER kick or bite, ALWAYS respect my personal space, then all the training and riding after that is enjoyable for both partners, and difficulties can be worked out calmly and pleasantly.
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 11:10:49 AM
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| My B mare throws a strop when my son rides - he hasn't ridden her for years but she still has a hissy fit and pulls faces etc. at whoever he has ridden - she doesn't bat an eyelid when anyone else rides. She also pulls faces at the others if he grooms them or stands with them. Not convinced that horses don't experience some form of non- food related jealousy |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 11:29:12 AM
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Oh horses can definitely be both jealous and possessive. They can also sulk - I get ignored when I return from business trips away, until I am forgiven....usually takes a day or so... |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 12:08:50 PM
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Hi all
Well whatever interpretation one puts on thier own horses behaviour is fine..the day I hear it from the horses mouth is another matter, until then I keep most of that article pretty much in my mind at all times when around horses.
Beryl |
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kizzy
Bronze Member
Scotland
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 12:26:06 PM
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In respect of stabling a horse 24/7 (aside from a medcial reason or some other very good reason) I believe it is actually illegal (it is something i am considering writing my dissertation on). In Scotland it is the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2006, but I believe the English act is similar in content. I dont have time to look over the act, but it does state that cruealty includes mental and physical suffering, mentioning the five freedoms. It states that animals should be allowed to display their natural behaviours etc.
Unneccessary stabling for long periods undoubtedly causes mental suffering as well as contributing to physical health problems. I cannot understand why more is not said or done on this issue, althouhg i understand that far more serious abuse cases have enough difficulty being brought to court. It is an attitude that needs to change, there is no excuse, if you do not have the facilities to keep a horse in a humane environment, then you should not be keeping one.
In respect of rig stallions, I have had little experience around stallions, but as a child broke a 5 year old rig (he belonged to a lady whose pnies i rode, we didnt own him). He was a very difficualt pony and was eventually put down, but it is frightening to think what could have happened. As a child I had little understanding of the dangers, nor did I realise that rigs are known for being more difficult...does make you think.
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 2:00:07 PM
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Very interesting - thanks Beryl.
I also have to say I find horses can be jealous over many aspects of life.
Just to add that I always carry a whip/stick with a stallion/colt now. If I'd had one that day I think I would have been able to defend my self, although it happened too fast.
Regarding stallions having a free life, this killer stallion was in a paddock and therefore had much freedon. I'm lucky with space for the boys to have a good standard of life but if I'm honest Ffatal comes under the 22/7 catagory, on average, by his his own choice. A horse very set in his ways and had HIS routine which he appreciates everyone adherring to !!
They are all very different and my own experience will never let me forget that. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 2:09:28 PM
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As regards to the stabling 24/7, how on earth could authorities monitor this situation? they cant be watching 24/7, it is terribly sad, but it goes on all over the world. I went to vist a stud in Arizona with my daughter , many years ago now( we had looked up the address and found it to be in a built up area,) the house was in a cul -de sac ! they had at least 10 beautiful horses, but no fields ! the horses never went out at all   |
   
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 2:35:42 PM
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I agree that horses love routine my Guinness lived out 24/7 in his previous owners care, I prefer them in at night so I changed his routine when he came to me, at first he panicked a little about being in but his stomach overuled and he soon got used to the change...but now he has an alarm clock in his head for out and in times and this does not vary at all they make the rules and we follow them !!
Beryl |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 3:49:18 PM
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My gelding is insanely jealous of anything equine or even human!! H e does like my Mum though but he cant stand my hubby and puts his ears back at him even though my hubby wouldnt harm a flea and has only ever been kind and loving towards him. It seems to be when I am around because if I go away like Malvern etc hubby looks after him and he's usually fine for him!!!
He was always jealous of his own Mum when she was alive, and since moving him to where he is now he wont have any of the other 3 near me
when he is about, he will actually go for them with his ears back, even though he's a big softy and would never dream of kicking or biting them he is overcome with jealousy.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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Theo
Silver Member
England
368 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 4:46:52 PM
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IMHO, no horse is ever born bad, but unfortunately any trust built over a long period of time can be undone in a split second. Those I have seen alot of.
When Tedfold was part of a large TB stud in the 70's, they had a stallion called Yellow River and his turn-out paddock was at the bottom of the track, and one day he savaged his handler whilst he was trying to put a headcollar over his head to bring in. He ripped his chest and with blood pouring, he managed to crawl up the hill to raise the alarm for help. If he had been knocked out, it would have been fatal.
I have met Monty's stallion who lived in a stallion pen when I was there in 1998, despite the savagery behaviour towards people, he was absolutely brilliant and gentle with his mares and the progeny never showed any signs of his sort of behaviour. Thank goodness!
I did see a very aggressive warmblood stallion who again savaged his handler regularly and over time it got worse until they decided to have him put down. It turned out at PM that he had an ingrown molar that grew into his brain... poor thing must have been in so much pain!
The dilemma is whether it is worth keeping these horses for the sake of keeping the 'bloodlines' going? I know of stallions that savages mares, stallions that would take 2hrs to but a bridle on and stallions that would savage their handlers without a second thought. The first two only offer coverings by AI, 3rd by running with mares. It's a matter of working round the problem...
Gem loves her daddy and if Jo gets on her, she would'nt even walk on! And Jacobi only puts up with me and is mummy's little boy...
Nomatter how much you think you know your horse, always, always, always keep your eyes open! |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 6:41:26 PM
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[left] [right]Originally posted by jaybird
Hi all
Well whatever interpretation one puts on thier own horses behaviour is fine..
How would you interpret the fact that if I take my horse Bryn out of the field , do some in hand work then put him back, Sealeah has no reaction, but if Harry ( her rider) does the same she becomes agitated, spends the whole time at the gate 'begging' with her leg then attacks Bryn when he is let back in the field?
Ditto for Moatsides son's mare.
the day I hear it from the horses mouth is another matter,
]Well that will never happen as horses don't have a verbal language. They do however have a complex language of sounds, facial expressions, postures and body position, which can be partially and consistently understood by a human with the inclination to do so.
If I see some awful war footage of a child being forcibly taken from her mother, I cannot 'know' how that mother is feeling but....
Her emotions are 'evident' and I assume she is distressed and terrified.
When a foal is prematurely and forcibly taken from her mother I cannot know how the mare is feeling but...........
Her 'emotions' are 'evident' and I assume she is distressed and terrified.
As I scientifically trained person I am wary of assumptions but I am prepared to assume that the two mothers are feeling very similar emotions.
Where we differ is that we have a very highly developed cerebral cortex capable of conceptual thought, so the woman may for years torture herself with guilt or conjure scenarios of what happened to her child.
However I see no reason to believe that the distress felt by the two mothers at the time of separation would be very different.
Emotions such as love, fear, anger,jealousy, compassion and even altruism have their bases in evolutionary biology.
Horses like humans,like wolves, like elephants are higher social mammals, we have similar neuroendocrine systems that are the biological mechanisms of our emotions. The emotions are the drivers of behaviours which maintain group cohesion and defence, reproduction , the rearing of young etc. I find it hard to imagine why the BASIC range of emotions experienced by a horse would be fundamentally very different to those experienced by our own species of primate.
Indeed I would consider the horse a highly emotional animal, the animal behaviour expert and author M.Kylie- Worthington once said to me that the key to educating horses is to help them 'learn to control their emotions' I think she is right.
Sorry Jaybird I didn't mean to rant!
Sorry everyone else but I am very puzzled by all this rig stuff. There is a test for a rig and it is simply corrected by surgery, we do a lot of them.... what is the problem?
I know the behaviour can take a while to subside but once a cryptorchidectomy has been done you are left with a plain old gelding.
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 07 Feb 2010 10:53:54 PM |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 7:23:26 PM
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OH was a stallion man (and Stud Groom) for 15 years on the leading NH stud in the country. He says ALL stallions you treat with great respect, ALWAYS carry a stick. Stallions in general will all have a go give them an inch and they will take a mile. People are foolish or ignorant if they think otherwise.
TB stallions are judged by their racecourse results/pedigree their temperement is almost irrelevant. Many Mill Reef line horses are very aggressive but if a horse is producing the goods on the course then that is good enough.
One of the stallions OH had was a 'christian' but a flop as a sire. Another was a calculatingly nasty horse that would attack OH or the mare he was covering, but he was Champion sire several times. Another Ch sire was rampant and very cocky, he once lifted the (18st) farrier clean off his feet and threw him on the ground just because the man walked too close to the stable door and the horse *could*. |
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Edited by - Jamana on 07 Feb 2010 9:55:41 PM |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 7:28:57 PM
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I was once told:
Tell a gelding
Ask a mare
and
Discuss it with a stallion
I believe that any horse (or pony!) has the potential to damage - my experience is that harsh treatment reaps it's own "reward", that is not to say that only harsh treatment causes aggression
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Edited by - moatside on 07 Feb 2010 7:35:04 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 7:29:54 PM
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Originally posted by RAFAYou are right there Lynda, I dont think there is ever a bad/nasty animal born its how they are handled and brought up that turns them nasty. Kazzy was naughty because apparently when they have a retained testicle they produce more testostrone making them more of a handful and er a bit naughty aswell  Janet
While I generally agree with that, there ARE exceptions, mares with ovarian cysts coming immediately to mind. I remember Paul Atkinson telling me how lucky he was to have survived an encounter with one - their hormones go to hell and the poor things become very 'stallion-y' and aggressive. I myself was lucky to survive an encounter with one - she belonged to the YOs of a livery we were at, but to access our paddock we had to go through her field. She was known for being 'dodgy' and had symptoms of pain in her back, which just screamed ovarian cyst to me, but the YO knew it all and there was nothing wrong with the mare, she was just 'being a cow' (took one to know one in my opinion!). Anyway, AFTER this mare had nearly taken the OH's arm off, I grabbed hold of her and held her headcollar while the OH took our boy out to his paddock. The minute I let go of the mare she whipped round and let me have both feet - straight at head height. Luckily she missed by a fraction, by the owner of the stables next door saw it and thought he had a corpse on his hands!
This poor mare had been dragged down from Northumberland, drugged and shoved into Melton sales, which is where the YOs bought her (being so horse savvy as they were). We left the yard not long after, but I doubt they got her any treatment for her condition. Probably drugged her again and shoved her back into Melton again!
So horses can be dangerous without being badly treated - but will seldom if ever attack without SOME reason, even if it isn't obvious.
Keren |
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alison
Platinum Member
Wales
1810 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 7:39:38 PM
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Completely agree with Jamana, you have to be very aware when working with Stallions. Some are very calm and easy to handle others are much more volatile - even with the same handling. I believe you should never keep a Stallion unless you have good facilities and experience, and you should never keep one for Vanity sake.
Ali  |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 8:08:39 PM
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| Another thing to remember (as OH has just told me to write ) is there is a BIG difference between an entire Colt and a Stallion. Once they start covering they are very different. OH says he rememebers taking a new stallion that was just out of training to a Stallion Parade at Newmarket, the horse was immaculatley behaved and very calm. The following year, having spent the previous season covering 120 mares he was a very different story! Screaming, kicking out at his stable and generally very excited. NOT a horse or situation for an inexperienced person. Esp with 15-20 other stallions around |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 9:18:58 PM
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Thank you Jamana I appreciated your posts.
Lisa - unfortunately not all rigs are corrective. Sinan Bey had no second testicle, absolutely nothing. We tried many things and I regret hanging on too long trying to find a 'cure' before actually discovering this. He had been vetted prior to shipping and was vetted having two testicles ! I was waiting for a veterinarian friend Max Wilson to come over from Australia to see him. Max has advised and helped me in the past and I hoped he may have an answer. Things deteriorated with his temperament and prior to being destroyed he lived his last few hours in side reins so he couldn't attack anyone or himself. It was a hideous thing to see and so unless you have this terrible experience of a rig it is not simply an operation with a happy gelding at the end of it.
Interesting incident with the ovarian cyst mare. We had one here a few years ago and she was very hard work, not nasty though, just completely hormonally mental !! |
Edited by - Delyth on 07 Feb 2010 9:29:08 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 9:52:59 PM
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Delyth,
Sorry i wasn't refering to you specifically, I don't know the story of your horse so forgive me if I am misunderstanding. Maybe your horse had some condition of which I am not aware so I am honestly not commenting with regard to him. However......
Horses can be monorchids...ie one testicle but if this is truly the case then removal of that testicle will leave you with a gelding.
A rig usually has one descended one undescended testicle, the undescended testicle can be anywhere between just up inside the inguinal canal to right up inside the abdomen, in any case, once the undescended testicle is found and removed (which is usually easy but can be a pain)(and obviously the normal one removed, which may have unethically already been done) then you are left with a gelding.
If both testicles are undescended again they can both be removed to leave you with a gelding.
Anyway unless there is some testosterone producing tumour etc if the testicles are found and removed, however difficult this may be you are left with a gelding.
Granulosa cell tumours are relatively common and again surgery is the answer.. these are not 'cystic ovaries' but a tumour of ovarian tissue which can express itself as stallion like behaviour, anoestrus or nymphomania depending on the hormone expression.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 07 Feb 2010 10:03:55 PM |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 10:11:18 PM
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Thank you Jamana I appreciated your posts.
Thanks Delyth, I was expecting  from expressing those opinions!
OH is full of stories of the stallions he has looked after over the years and from stallion men he knows. Most would make your hair curl. Including the one of the man savaged by a Mill Reef son, found in the horses stable but luckily did survive. The 4yo son of the stud owner was just caught climbing into the stallion paddock with that same horse, who was approaching at speed with a horrible head down,ears flat posture................stallion left to go to another stud that same week! And one who had attacked his man on numerous occasions and when the man was on holiday he warned the Stud Owner the horse was very dangerous but was just dismissed as a bit nervous (!) UNTIL the Stallion went for the Stud Owners Father and had to be shot over the stable door. OH himself had the clothes ripped clean from his arm and shoulder(thick coat,jumper,t-shirt), just walking through a stallions paddock on his way back from lunch, in a split second by a horse he had looked after for 3 seasons.
They are not all like it though, the christian was quite happily tied up in the back of his box whilst one of the lads was flat out asleep in the barrow outside his open door! BUT they ALL COULD be and ALL have the POTENTIAL much more so than 'other' horses. |
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LYNDILOU
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United Kingdom
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Anne C
Gold Member
United Kingdom
886 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 10:32:44 PM
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I've had my stallion for virtually all his 15 years and apart from when he was young and learning his manners, I've never carried a stick with him and I do trust him, he has saved me from many a tricky situation in the past but I do agree they are big, potentially dangerous animals. They aren't really domesticated they just have a veneer of domesticity. We do tend to forget this.
I have also been told in the past that if you have to have a stallion then the Arab is the one to have as he is much more gentle and biddable than other breeds. Always the exception to the rule, as usual.
And he sulks as well, if I have a night out and if I go away for a couple of days, woe betide me. He is also a stallion who chooses not to be out all day. He tells me in the morning if he's going out that day and then lets us know when he wants to come in.
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Anne |
Edited by - Anne C on 07 Feb 2010 10:36:30 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 10:44:38 PM
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I think Arab stallions are particularly sweet as entires go, certainly compared to thoroughbreds, though in the case of tbs, the sort of life many of them have been subjected to explains their behaviour.
However I can't think of one stallion on our books (the one that I described above wrt the gun is no longer with us, the other in that post was defensive-aggressive so fine if he was not fearful) who I would not wish to enter the stable of without a stick, and that would include a wide range of breeds including tbs. I am absolutely sure that if I turned up carrying a stick, most of my clients would give me my marching orders.
Thinking of it ,over the years some of the easiest and nicest of my clients' horses have been stalllions, Tomos's Arab Ibn Marino Marini and her lovely Andalucian Balconero being two that spring to mind.
Jamama you are right to sound a note of caution but most stallions allowed to lead a 'normal' life and well handled are simply not problem and are often delightful characters in my experience.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
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Reality Check
!--the very thought) but neither are they alien beings with no feelings or emotions. Common sense must prevail.
