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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 11:21:49 AM
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I want to agree with you Yvonne, (testing is a must whatever) but I am not so sure about making it compulsory for owners to disclose the result. At the moment it seems to work well as a voluntary decision.
I have no axe to grind as my stallion is clear, but I am now testing my mares because already someone has indicated to me that one carries lines which 'could' contain a carrier. (she has some Spanish blood!) Not overtly a nasty comment but one that made me want to test for fear of the black spot landing on me!
Hence my concern that this all could become slightly disproportionate. Serious breeders can cope, but I fear those that only get half the message will blow this all out of control. |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 12:17:05 PM
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Not a bad point Sue but my concern is for the person who just wants to have one foal and who does not know to ask questions. Sadly there are some very untrustworty people around who would take their money regardless.
If the status of all breeding stock is known which it would be if the testing was done with the registration then barring cheating no-one would be able to hide.
Yvonne
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 12:55:09 PM
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Alistair, not entirely sure why you are asking how many cases we have seen in the last 10 years, but assuming the answer could be very few or none, it is worth bearing in mind that the availability of stallions abroad has now become so much easier with the advent of AI ......I wonder how many foals have been born in this country over the last few years who are potential carriers, but just haven't been tested yet....? Just because this country has been relatively clear of these awful diseases historically, does not mean we will remain so, sadly, as foreign sires become increasingly popular. Far better to nip it in the bud BEFORE it becomes a more widespread problem ?
Yvonne, totally agree with your idea of testing at registration - although the cost of registering a foal is already astronomical (!), if we are going to test these horses anyway, we may as well get it done as cheaply as possible. I also agree with your idea of overstamping the passport / reg docs - that way NO-ONE can get the wool pulled over their eyes. |
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Edited by - Zenitha on 25 Jan 2010 4:19:36 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 2:26:56 PM
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I agree about it being a moral issue re the stallion at stud. Same as making sure it is tested for EVA, and having the regular pre breeding season swabs. Also that he is registered and has a license!
The stallion owner who stands a clear stallion at stud has no control over a mare visiting that is a carrier or not. I wouldn't even ask about this. However I would if my stallion was a carrier, I'm certain most stallion owners will do this as they did with SCID carrier stallions.
What is important is that mare owners should also test their mares. Why leave it all to the stallion owner?
What this thread has proved to me is how it can all be blown out of proportion and this is a sad fact.
Testing for CA should be a tool to help breeders avoid breeding an affected foal, not finger pointing at one or two individual stallions.
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 2:57:44 PM
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Zenitha makes a good point
Overseas stallions /mares may not provide this info .
It would have to be a WAHO req.to make it work .
Is it really necessary to put owners to the expense at this stage for a small percentage risk? |
    
blue moon |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 3:12:49 PM
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| How many stallions in the UK have been tested? how many of you will go to a stallion this year who is untested ? how many of you are awaiting foals by untested stallions with your untested mares? stop pointing fingers at stallions and mares who HAVE been tested, at least you know they will not have affected foals in the future! can you say the same? |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 4:52:46 PM
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Oh Dear !
Finger pointing was never the intention of this thread, and I think some of the comments may well have been misconstrued ? As I made a point of stating from the start , I personally have NO problem with carriers standing at stud, and I applaud owners, both here and abroad, who have already had their stock tested, whatever the result . Individual stallions were not singled out for 'finger pointing' - merely as examples of how these diseases can be spread in the absence of compulsory testing for all. I don't believe anyone has made any derogatory comments about any of the stallions mentioned, and why would they ? I for one would give my eye teeth to use some of them, if only I could afford it  . I don't believe there should be any stigma attached to a carrier,but I do think brushing these things under the carpet is what makes some daft people think there should be something to be ashamed of, and also doesn't help to stop the spread.
I used 4 outside stallions last year, and no, none of them have been tested for SCID or CA. I PRESUMED all the stallions to be SCID free, and confess I felt CA 'too far removed' to be a risk. Looking at the CA list, I was wrong, which is why I am now having all my breeding stock tested.
The aim of this thread was, and still is, to ascertain how people would feel about compulsory testing,not what they feel about those unfortunately already affected - and to draw attention to an issue which could potentially save the lives of a number of Arabian foals, and avoid the sorrow their loss would cause to the owners . |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 5:03:51 PM
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Certainly no finger pointing here - before he is used by us we will be testing Colin and again before we breed again our mares will be tested.
For me the expense is not an issue as the tragedy of one affected foal is too great and somehting I would not wish anyone, let alone the novice who has never had a foal, to cope with.
The quote for CA testing from Davies University is about £31 per horse but I would imagine that if the AHS were to require compulsory testing they could negotiate a lower fee for both this and the SCID test.
The whole point of overstamping the registration and the covering certificates is to stop people hiding and although I do agree with Sue about the mares there would be no need to ask if this were brought in.
It may be that stock does not need to be tested until it is registered fro breeding but from a research point of view this gives an incomplete picture with the status of many animals remaining unknown thus the true extent of the problem being unknown.
In many other species registration documents are overstamped and this has helped greatly in the prevention of a number of potentially fatal diseases.
Yvonne |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 5:28:38 PM
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In the ideal world all breeding stock should be tested I agree, but sadly this is no ideal world. Look how long it took for SCID, or CID to be recognised?
You would have your tonge cut out if you dared to mention CID as it was called some years ago! we hid away in dark places to talk about it all.
I just can't see our society insisting on all breeding stock to be tested for SCID and CA. They could advise.?
This is where the internet is so useful. It has the list available on the web site and everyone can see it.
By not being on the list will soon become very obvious to all. Hopefully this will prompt others to test.
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 6:06:15 PM
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Sirius(Dom), my worry about fraudulent certification isn't concerning the stallion standing at stud, who would probably soon be found out if the owner "cheated" with his samples, more with the sale of youngstock for future breeding.
I'm sure there are a lot of buyers searching for 'SCID-free' (yes & CA-free) fillies to purchase.
There must be temptation for unscrupulous vendors to get higher prices for carrier stock from known carrier stallions via false certificates, if it is so easy to do this….
I’m sure we all know of somebody who would happily do this then claim it must be a lab mistake if found out?
I know this is a very negative take on the subject, but I know it will happen somewhere because greed will overcome morals.
In the past a vet had to take the blood samples, right?
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 7:13:31 PM
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I don't think we need more vet expenditure, and I don't see the point of paying for and sending off a test yourself only to blindly not read/use the results. As most colts are gelded at some point before being used at stud and most mares probably never breed I think it should be implimented at breed stock entry, not at registration as a foal, which as has been pointed out is already horrendously expensive.
You will always get some people that greed will overtake morals unfortunately, and using a vet to do it isnt going to make any difference. If I for example presented two grey stallions and asked the vet to scid/ca test just one, how do they know its the right one?? And please don't say by the passport, whorls etc can be in very similar places, and colouration can be from almost black to pure white!! Especially if I used a different vet from my normal one!!
SueB You are completely right, it was scandalous years ago to have a carrier horse, at least hopefully people will start to think sensibly and breed accordingly. And not being on the list within the next year or so will start to show. |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 7:28:43 PM
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Pashon - that's actually a great idea because if the tests had to be run on the same samples as the DNA typing, identity problems solved! |
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 7:47:19 PM
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Yep, that does make more sense Pashon, never thought of that
Also agree with what you say re identification - even with my own vet of many years, he wouldn't have a clue which of my bay mares he was testing. I'm sure the majority of vets would trust the owners to present the right horse, but in some cases their trust may be misplaced ! |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 8:19:01 PM
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All stallions in my opinion should be tested, my stallions tests have been sent for SCID & CA and i will post results as and when they return, to make as much information available to prospective breeders surely will be better for the breed in the long run. I also think breeders should have mares tested to, its not all down to the stallion.
And bring back stallion licensing whats with all these two year olds standing at stud could never of happened in the days of licensing. I know this will be an unpopular comment just my view.  |
  
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
Edited by - Tracey@ET on 25 Jan 2010 9:34:13 PM |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 10:14:37 PM
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Agree all should be tested!
I think it's a disgrace using a two year old for breeding, male or female. They are still developing... same old thing, money money money.
There should be so much more regulation.
And that should include humans breeding. |
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morag
Bronze Member
England
94 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 10:19:09 PM
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I think that testing should be compulsory at breeding registration. A carrier foal is perfectly healthy, will not show symptoms and can lead a happy normal life. The problem is only relevant when it comes to BREEDING the carrier animal, be it stallion or mare. That is when you need the carrier status of BOTH animals. If you aren't breeding it you don't need to worry about CA status so the expense of the test is irrelevant and shouldn't be forced on to everyone who breeds a foal.And yes it should be stamped on the registration certificate at entry onto the breeding register. Having had a CA mare , who was PTS at 5 years old, I know how emotive this issue is for all concerned with the arrival of an affected foal.
In answer to the percentage question - roughly 3% of the population of arabians bred are CA affected. This means that an awful lot of people are keeping quiet and disposing of youngstock behind closed doors!! As the carrier/carrier breeding results in 25% chance of affected foals being produced this means that roughly 10% of chance (ie untested) breeding will potentially produce a CA AFFECTED foal !!
Please do the right thing and test ALL your BREEDING stock.
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gsarrow
New Member
11 Posts |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 08:14:37 AM
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sorry Debs -too late -I already have 6 kids! |
blue moon |
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Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 09:08:59 AM
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If the 2 yo discussion needs to take place at length it should be on another thread, but I agree and disagree with you, Tracey@et and Debs. We have two 2 yo fillies and two 2 yo colts.
The fillies won't go near a stallion until at least 4 yo, probably later. They need time to grow and mature before breeding, for their own health and development and lots of other reasons.
The colts were bred to provide our next generation ridden stallion. However, if they don't produce top quality foals, there is no point in keeping them entire. Most stallions have a pretty tough time as most people can't let them have a proper "horse" existence. Therefore they need gelding as soon as possible to let them concentrate on growth and developing gelding personalities and because the gelding itself is increasingly physically traumatic as the horse gets older. Therefore they need to prove themselves as young as possible, as the earliest we can fairly assess the foals is 2 yo again > the sire colt will be at least 5 yo (2 + 1 + 2). The foals produced from the current colts are eagerly planned and awaited, their homes are already sorted, it is completely responsible from the foal breeding point of view. It will not be allowed to turn them into marauding beasts.
As with CA, this is a topic that will produce sweeping statements. One of the risks is that having read through the threads we get all fired up which then gives side comments a lot of momentum.
Dom
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 11:21:58 AM
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Hiya Jane,
Rusleem is tested scid clear |
pagey |
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lottieherts
Silver Member
England
344 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 2:10:36 PM
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Well I intend to use a CA carrier who is just 2...Not without the results from the CA test on my mare though. Top quality stallions standing in the UK have been lost to overseas buyers, so if a top quality 2 year old stands at stud in the UK, I will use him. No point procrastinating!
Surely testing your stock is just being a responsible breeder. I am certain with all the attention on CA /SCID testing, responsible mare owners will ask questions as to why a stallion has not been tested.
As for witch hunts, I like to think we are past throwing tied up people in rivers and burning them at the stake. Are we now doing it to our horses? |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
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simbba
Silver Member
299 Posts |
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Topic |
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SCID & CA - time for compulsory testing ?
