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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 11:23:30 AM
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Cate -
I would suspect without checking that she was 100% Old English, and as such putting her to an OE stallion would have also produced a 100% offspring.
At 96.71% Crabbet +31% Crabbet blood from your Straight Egyptian stallion total 127.71, divided by 2 should mean that your youngster is 63.86% Crabbet, and probably 65.5% OE - unless anyone has any other thoughts?
Melanie
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www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
Edited by - guisburn on 09 Jan 2010 11:24:56 AM |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 11:29:05 AM
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Hi Alistair - Yes Sayada was a beautiful mare, so we are grateful to have her daughter. She was loaned to the Maxwells for a season and put into foal to Maliek El Kheil, but the colt was gelded and sold. After that she was returned to Lady May. I do believe that Maxwells did show her whilst they had her, and she did very well.
When we bought her daughter Shimsha, we decided to send her to Maxwells stallion Crusader, and Mrs Maxwell advised us that we had managed to secure an exceptional filly, who had been intended to be sold abroad prior to the death of Lady May. We have never shown Shimsha, who will be 19 years old this year.
Melanie
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www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 11:45:27 AM
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Thank you Melanie. Such a shame that he is a little short on his percentages which means he won't be able to be shown in Crabbet, or Old English classes if they take off. Thanks again for working the % out. I'm a bit dim when it comes to thing like that.
This is a great thread. I'm sure Janet Woodward in Cornwall has some Old English blood. I will check with her tonight. Deb A-C will be able to confirm. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 12:28:49 PM
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| Originally posted by Cate
How do you feel about Crabbet/Old English mares who have had, I suppose, their genes diluted as I have done by Egyptian?
Most SEs have Blunt horses in their ancestry, or share common ancestors with the Blunt horses, so the Egyptians are in fact the most closely related group to the Crabbets/OEngs next to the Old American lines (Blunt plus Davenport, etc).
Mrs Hedley imported The Shah (straight Babson egyptian) specifically because he had OEng bloodlines that she thought would reinforce what existed here at the time, but with the benefit of restoring 'dryness'. She was proved completely correct by his stunning offspring, which really opened the door to the first group of Egyptians imported here post-war.
In fact, there are SEs in the OEng gene pool, thanks to the Thriplow Farm importation in the 1930s. My brain is a bit addled right now due to a migraine, but I think I am right in saying Carmargue's damline traces to one of the Thriplow mares.
IMO, the best way to preserve the OEng lines without excessive inbreeding would be judicious crosses of complimentary Egyptian and Bahraini lines (hello Jenny! ).
I know myself that the OEng/Egyptian cross works extremely well, having seen the evidence of it through Dr June's horses, and it is something I try to carry on through my own breeding. I have the OEng/Egyptian stallion MARIMBAH by Marawan EAO (similar type to the OEngs despite being 'new' Egyptian) and his black son out of the OEng/Old American/Egyptian mare BABIRAH IL ASIL. Also look at the success Vlacq has had combining The Shah with OE lines and now with Prince!
So, IMO, you haven't really 'diluted' the lines as much as if you'd used a Polish stallion, for example.
Keren |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 12:40:55 PM
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| Jenny, do you have any info/pics regarding Harkem? My OH used him to breed an Anglo in the early 80's and always maintains he was one of the nicest arabs he has seen. Unfortunatly he has lost the old stud card so we don't have a picture of him. The Anglo he bred went on to become a Grade B SJ'er. |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 2:08:11 PM
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Keren..
Thank you so much for your very informative post and for taking the time to answer my post and explain so clearly. I'm not great at making myself very clear. I did do my homework tracing back to see where her lines originated from and felt my Egyptian stallion with his 31% Crabbet would compliment her very well and it has. I felt I was going back to the root using Egyptian. I just wondered how people would view such a mating as there always seems to be such bad vibes about Egyptian stock.
Cate
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Edited by - Cate on 09 Jan 2010 2:08:55 PM |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 2:27:52 PM
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Wonderful photos.... they are all beautiful!
Cate, is your colt the one you said looks like Al Emeer when he was a foal???
Would love too see.... |
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Arabmare
Gold Member
United Kingdom
628 Posts |
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honeybunch
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
90 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 3:56:32 PM
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This is a great thread!
I have been doing some research on Crabbet and Old English numbers. In the last volume of the stuud book (20) out of 2332 foals registered:
17 were 100% Crabbet
56 were Old English which includes Nuhra.
These numbers are worryingly low.
Keeping a large enough gene pool to avoid dangerous levels of in-breeding is a challenge.
I think Crabbet/OE crosses very well with other lines but I think it is good to try to keep a reasonable size group of high %/pure lines (of any of the various groups) in order to be able to cross back to them. The importation of Australian Crabbet horses is providing access to some of the bloodlines that have been lost to UK Crabbet/OE lines.
I agree that we should not breed from arabians who have serious faults - a horse that is not fit to ride is no use to me!
Talking of Courthouse lines, I was once lucky enough to visit the stud when Mr Clark was still alive. I saw the amazingly beautiful Shammar, Samhan and the lovely mares. It left a lasting impression. In those days, the Courthouse arabians were very rarely available in the UK - most were sold for huge sums abroad. We admired them from afar but thought we would never have the chance of owning one! I am sad that the lovely mare for sale hasn't been snapped up, she looks stunning! |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 6:04:29 PM
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Debs,
Yes he is the one when we saw a photo of Al Emeer as a foal we felt our colt when a few months old looked similar. Probably not now, but here's some photos taken at the end of December with him in his woolly coat. Bit of a belly in these as he was due to be wormed and yes he is wormed regularly.
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Edited by - Cate on 09 Jan 2010 6:15:52 PM |
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 6:28:06 PM
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ooh missed this thread somehow - clearly lots of old english fans and some beautiful horses. Guisburn I'm amazed noone has been to see your beautiful mare she caught my eye on the sales pages as I always like to browse even though i'm not looking. Perhaps it's the time of year though and people will start looking again in the Spring.
Anyway any excuse to put pictures up. Here is my 100% crabbet mare, Binley Ishara. I love her she is very sensible (most of the time) although extremely forward going under saddle but can really switch the snort and blow on with no encouragement whatsover in hand or in the field.
 
 
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Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 6:54:04 PM
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Yes, Joanna it was a bad time of year to think about advertising, but I had hardly had time to ride her since June and I thought it was such a waste. Nick my OH has started riding again after his illness (which was the main reason we were reducing, to take some of the workload down) he really has enjoyed taking her out again, so I am not really bothered, probably best to part with some of the anglo and partbred youngsters and leave the mature purebreds at home. Anyway she is Mehzeers last daughter so she is a bit special.
Thanks Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 7:40:04 PM
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He's lovely Cate... Ali is quite scruffy now, was living out 24/7 but cos of the snow I have gone soft and he's in at nights. Just had a week off this week and am gutted as I couldn't take him for walks or do much with him really as so snowy and icy.... and too bloody cold!
Do miss having something to ride, but not going to back him till 2011 as he was a later baby, May. Will ve very jealous as my pal backing her baby in the spring!!!
Your girl lovelt too Joanna, will never tire of pic's of arabians.... so good for the soul!
Jasmine.... those manes! Lovely girls, wish Ali mane like theirs...is there some magic formula????
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 8:46:05 PM
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| Originally posted by Cate
I just wondered how people would view such a mating as there always seems to be such bad vibes about Egyptian stock.
Cate
IMO, it's the modern American-bred Egyptian which has been bred primarily for looks and not for performance which are responsible for this. It is very sad, as these lines did have the potential to produce great performance stock, as shown by the horses that came here, eg Kais I, Saab, Kheiralla, Marawan. The difference is, "our" Egyptians were imported by people who knew what performance was, whereas the modern American Egyptian is a show horse and nothing more.
Just look at Vlacq's Prince for a performing Straight Egyptian - and just the type of horse to complement OEng mares, since he has Crabbet ancestors as well as ancestors who have contributed to OEngs through Thriplow lines.
Keren
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Edited by - MinHe on 09 Jan 2010 8:47:53 PM |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 9:15:50 PM
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Keren..
You're a mine of information and so good that you like to share, thank you! This is such a good thread.
Cate |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
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gg
Bronze Member
England
202 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 11:11:50 PM
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I have a 14.2hh grey mare Bint Masra, Sire is HARKEM. She is generally very brave and forward going when ridden.....sometimes a little too much!!! I try to do a bit of endurance. She is very much like your mare joanna piana. Her lines are on all breed pedigree. Would bring a link up and some photos but not very good at those kind of things!
Julie |
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JanC
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 08:57:19 AM
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Hi All,
Mention of Harkem has nudged a distant memory - from an AHS Journal maybe 25 years ago (?)an article about Harkem who was being ridden by a double amputee who had lost both his legs above the knees (was his name David ???). The guy had immense strength in his upper body and was able to use his arms to "vault" into the saddle from his wheelchair, then used his weight and neck reining for steering and brakes.
The point of the article was how relaxed Harkem was about the whole strange experience, from having a wheelchair parked right beside him, to the guy leaping aboard and then being ridden in a completely different way. I think he even taught Harkem Western riding and had him doing sliding stops.
Just another example of how an Arab will adapt to things and behave so well.
Does anyone else remember this?
Jan |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 11:05:28 AM
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I would also look at Russian stallions as an outcross to OE/Crabbet
So much Crabbet blood could be repatriated that way .
For example Plumbum |
    
blue moon |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 12:41:29 PM
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Jan, that story about Harkem was also in the Rosemary Archer book, 'The Versatile Arabian'. OH used to have horses at livery where Harkem lived and he said that Harkem was a lovely kind horse.
Julie, I would love to see pics of you Harkem girl  |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 2:00:30 PM
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also the Adres son in Holland and Burkan with the action and the structure ... |
blue moon |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 5:26:46 PM
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Alistair - if you want to see the result of crossing Russian with Crabbet/OE you need look no further than Toman - his Russian sire was not only a superb racehorse but a World Champion Top Ten and included in his pedigree such wonderful horses as Selma, Rasim, Nefisa, Risala, Ridaa, Astraled, Risalma, Rissla, Kazmeen, Mesaoud, Naseem and others - combine this with Al Waha's Queen's Topaz (Midnight Gold x Dancing Queen) - need I say more |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 5:35:42 PM
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..and Toman !!
Sorry ,I could make a list of top stallions.
Russian on OE works well as I was suggesting.
What would a Crabbit horse look like today if there had not been the major exodus to Russia in 1936 ?
A lot like Toman I would think .
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blue moon |
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Ziadomira
Platinum Member
England
1635 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 5:36:30 PM
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I actually saw Harkem at a show in South Wales many years ago. He was being ridden Western style by his rider the double amputee. he wasa lovely horse and when not in the ring was beautifully behaved and stood around while his rider chatted to everyone.
An inspiration and not forgoten after all these years.
Zia |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
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Our English Heritage-where are they?
