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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 8:24:45 PM
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Hi Alistair, MinHe, regarding the Courthouse Arabs I have found, 2 of the stallions are classed as 100% Old English, Ramoth is by Shammar (Champurrado x Somra II) out of Rosa Maria (Samhan x Rosemary) born 1982. Siroco is by Saltram (Samhan x Sceptre) out of Signorinetta (Samhan x Salome IV) born 1990. Scipion is by Rajah Courthouse (now gelded, Siroco x Rosa Maria) out of Small Girl (Ramoth x Spilletta (by Kantaka who has Polish blood so not OE) born 2001. I have found several others but all have been unfortunately gelded. My friend has spoken to Monsieur Courtial, who bought the Courthouse Arabs from the dispersal sale with Monsieur Buttigieg, they are quite elderly now & no longer breeding, although M.Courtial still owns Scipion. I also have traced 1 mare & I am sure if I looked harder I may find others.
I think there is a lesson to be learnt using the Courthouse Arabs as an example, as unfortunately it is too late for them to be kept pure, however they could be kept pure in the OE format like many have done with Spearmint & going by his stock they are fab! I strongly agree with preservation breeding as long as it isn't to the detriment of the offspring health wise, be it Crabbet, Babson, Sheik Obyed etc. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 9:14:16 PM
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Hi Kastell, that is great news! It would be terrific if we can get even a couple more foals from these superb lines. Gerri in France has a mare from the same Courthouse family as I have (Belka/Basilisk) - I know she wants to breed her to her Sheyk Obeyd Stallion, as apart from the dam line she is substantially Egyptian. However, I do think (based on experience) that this is a complimentary cross, also, Musgrave Clark was in touch with Henry Babson, and Babson had a Courthouse stallion at one point, so evidently they thought the lines worth combining.
I would love to have sent my mare to Spearmint - but she is a cow to cover and I wouldn't inflict her on anyone!
Keren |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 11:00:07 PM
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Quite a cheering thread this one well done Nikki.
We have two Arabs,
My young Crabbet gelding, Shakmari Gold (Bryn to his friends) by Mareschal ex Shakirah Gold(Golden Cavalier)who is extremely friendly and 'moves for Britain' according to a judge last year (certainly he is a joy to ride!).
Also Harry's beloved Sealeah Myranda by Mystic Gilt ex Seagull (Silver Fari) who as well as being the brightest horse I have EVER met,has carried Harry all the way to Jordan and is an advanced endurance mare really enjoying her career, she is very high % Crabbet but also carries Courthouse breeding.
(Sorry to rave about them,I did not breed either of these horses so take no credit,but I just LOVE them.)
We also (Insh'Allah) have a foal on the way by Imperial Zar (by Spearmint ex a Hanif mare) out of a mare who is full sister to my painfully missed Audin (Aurabba x Constanza). This foal will thus be very high % Crabbet/Courthouse with some Davenport blood.
Obviously,old English horses are alive, well and very prominent in high level endurance. The ''trouble'' is that they tend to be loyal affectionate horses that inspire the devotion of their owners and are wonderful riding horses so they are often owned all their long lives by a single owner/rider,who may well not wish to breed. Additionally they are not as subject to fashion/ hype/promotion as some other lines which in many ways is a blessing, but it also means there are not as many being bred as maybe would be ideal.
So all credit to those breeders who have steadfastly ignored fashion and continued to breed these superlative riding horses .... THANKYOU .
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 11:06:59 PM
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| PS Minhe, there is frozen semen available, as far as I am aware to selected mares from Spearmint, I have used it and that batch at least was excellent quality. Imperial Zar is also available by Frozen semen.Sorry Admin if this counts as advertising, though neither stallion belongs to me (obviously). |
lisa |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 07:17:39 AM
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I agree with lisa rachel's post. I had a wonderful Crabbet/OE gelding (my Crabbet gelding's half brother)all his life from weaning at 6 months. He was the most incredible horse I've known - his intelligence and communication skills were almost human (and I don't say that lightly as I have a psychology background LOL!), his courage and instinct to protect me were heartwarming and I think he just knew we were a partnership so it came naturally to him. His endurance and speed were famous with those who knew him - the greatest fun was a race with a racing Arab during a long distance ride - it was a dead heat as he wouldn't even consider letting a mere racehorse beat him! He hunted, jumped and we ended up doing gymkhana games when he was about 22 and he loved it. His conformation was far from perfect but he was simply a fabulous and totally loyal friend and partner with a huge sense of humour. I don't doubt there are other Arab lines that could claim such attributes but these Old English Arabs have something very special with their owners/partners/slaves  .
The lines must be preserved but not, as Vygoda says, religiously if the horses don't have the right qualities - which aren't just skin deep.
Edited to say that I forgot, in case people are interested, that my boy's breeding was Fanto x El Kheir. Alexia Ross has close relatives, having had his Aunty Nafranta for some time. They shared the fabulous Naseel blood through Nafisa, his daughter  , Fanto's dam line. |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
Edited by - Treasure on 07 Jan 2010 11:03:38 AM |
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member
Australia
795 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 10:31:49 AM
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My girl has quite a lot of old Egyptian/Crabbet/old English and certainly has this strong trait of fierce loyalty. The problem is that I think it is to my daughter, as ever since Eba arrived they have looked at each other in a particular way. Damn! I finally get my black arab and it appears obvious she isn't going to be mine.
So, my thought is that I either in the future buy another horse for me, or breed. I do quite like the breeding route, as then you know them from such an early age and what they have done etc. However, I am realising how little (nothing) I know about what would compliment her bloodlines and help produce a horse that I can do dressage and lite endurance/pleasure rides on.
I have a couple of stallions I have come across that have appealed, but particularly reading this thread I realise how many more are out there. I guess the only way to find out more is to research around, but are there any good books/sites that would help me start the learning process that anyone can recommend?
Thanks
B
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 10:36:53 AM
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| Originally posted by Treasure
The lines must be preserved but not, as Vygoda says, religiously if the horses don't have the right qualities - which aren't just skin deep.
Luckily, they DO have the right qualities - despite some who would have you think they were rare because they DON'T, grrr. That is why we love them so much - for their brains, looks and ABILITY.
Don't forget, these lines have survived the last quarter-century DESPITE being deeply unfashionable...which they wouldn't have done if they had nothing to offer! It should never be forgotten that the horse considered the 'most perfect Arab' was the Courthouse stallion BAHRAM!
Lisa Rachel is dead right when she says the problem is these horses are TOO GOOD. In my 'own' Basilisk line, there have been lots of mares - but they have been so bloody good under saddle they have not had the chance to replace themselves. In fact, we only have this line through an accident, since if Eileen Tatam's "hunter" DIL KUSHI had not been attacked by a pig, Eileen would have been too busy riding her to breed from her!
Another reason why Courthouse horses in particular are hard to find is that Mr Musgrave Clark did not breed his horses on a regular basis - just every now and then, and he bred them less as he got older.
I wish we could have OE classes as well as Crabbet ones - to help boost the popularity of these valuable lines.
Keren |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 11:15:26 AM
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I agree with having more general OE classes as I too love the Courthouse horses (and I had Bahram as a Beswick china ornament long, long before I knew about Arab Horses  ). Many significant studs used Courthouse - Judith Evans, Michael Harris, the Maxwells and several more. They generally had a very different look and quality from the Crabbets. It would be wonderful to have an OE festival or even part of the National Show to bring some smiles to a lot of people's faces  . There are still a lot of people hanging on to these lines and they have proved their value by their sustainability, not only as pure breds but so many quality part breds. |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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Angelo
Junior Member
Scotland
40 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 5:09:11 PM
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Hi all, I am a new member and have been reading this post with interest. I have 2 arabs which are Crabbet/old English.
Angelo is 35yrs this year and I have had him since he was 7yrs.We have had great fun in the years we have been together. He took me through pony club where we won lots of games prizes. We were in the games team and have done lots of fun stuff since pony club which was many moons ago!His sire was Angels Shadow and his dam was Galia. I'm not sure of his percentage of Crabbet(I would appreciate if anybody could help with this)I never thought I would get another as wonderful as him until I got Zydeek. He is also a wonderful boy and we have such a good bond.Zydeek is also high percentage Crabbet. His sire was Zibak who is a full brother to Kasadi, his dame is Charisima who is an Aboud daughter.He is the double of his mum.
I love my Crabbet/old English boys. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 5:43:50 PM
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| Welcome to AL Annie - love to hear of your two fabulous-sounding horses. Can you post pictures? Angelo sounds an exceptional boy! I can vouch for the wonderful bond the Crabbets and Old English forge with their humans and your two sound like real horses-of-a-lifetime... |
Roseanne |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 7:00:10 PM
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Hhmmm sorry but I am about to have a rant!
So much said about Nuhra, much talk and no action is my experience, quick frankly people do not seem to care anymore about preserving the lines.
We have been dogged by time wasters having placed our mare for sale on the mares page, due my husbands recent illness, and desire to see the mare doing something useful.
Her dam was bred by at the home of Nuhra by Lady May, making her a direct descendant with multiple lines to the old mare. Her sire was the much celebrated and beautiful, Old English 75%+ Crabbet and 'British National Champion 'Mehzeer' who himself is out of a Nuhra mare who was leased from Lady May.
This is the mares dam Shimsha (Shimnar,NUHRA / Sayada NUHRA) and 2009 half sister by our own stallion Hussain (Crusader/Heloua)
We have had emails, lengthy phone calls no one has yet seen the horse?? We think so much of our mare that Nick is now actually recovered enough to start riding her himself again and disappeared for 4 hours the other day (before the snow!) We even held her pending someone traveling to see her,and in view of the distance asked that the mare should be held until after her visit, this was done only for that person to change about the appointment, really as an owner you cant be any fairer! Is there something wrong with the mare - she is an arab, sweet natured, but forward going, prefers hacking and endurance to flatwork at this stage, is good in traffic, can pull a face and scoot at a pheasant like the best of them, but has never bolted, reared or thrown anyone.....strange!! Actually Ive just convinced myself that she should stay put!!
Picture below is Shameerah doing what she likes best, endurance, with her is her straight Barton Lodge Nuhra sister Szaleem (80km EGB mare) who is also out of Shimsha by Zalim
In Meeras defence, no one has seen her to date.....if we find someone suitable so be it, if not she will be out endurance riding in 2010, hopefully with a fitter than before OH!
Our other Nuhra Veteran mare, was also bred by Lady May, by Mehzeer out of the Darjeel/Razehra daughter Zareen, has never been advertised, but we were approached to loan her by a number of people, who contacted me through AL. Att 22 years old and having not bred for a number of years I could not guarantee her as a breeder, but would have been happy to take her back if a breeding was unsuccessful, no problem.......oopps I happened to mention that she had also been ridden in her life....then suddenly the fact that she hadnt been for sometime becomes an issue.....strange, I dont remember the original enquiry being for an actual ridden horse, surely this was a bonus?? By the way Keren this does not include you....you could have my mare anytime ha,ha!!!!
On the buyers side, I approached someone to purchase a Nuhra mare, not in her first flush of youth, but the price was reasonable, the mare had an excellent home so I was keen to ensure that she would be looked after by ourselves. I was happy to provide references, have my home/yard inspected, pay for the mare unseen and unvetted, arrange transport through Gillies...risky you may say, but the pedigree of the mare was lovely and I was willing to do this.....conditions went on for weeks, and then the owner who was retiring changed their mind....why, because they didnt like horse transporters???
My advice is .....please do not window shop......dream and waste peoples time, and take advantage of their good nature and generousity and if Nuhra is that much of an interest to you all use Zalim before he dies, owned by Gail Hodgson he is the last Stallion bred by Lady May in the Uk.....World, and he was not well last year during summer as he has a poorly chest when the weather is too dry. Zalim is pictured below
Stop talking and take action.....I believe perhaps wrongly that we may have the last breeding group of Lady Mays stock, and quite frankly, I may consider not breeding another straight Nuhra offspring again, and retire the mares, due to lack of interest in these lines.
Karera below at 22 years of age
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www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 8:04:38 PM
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Hi Guisburn, what a great posting & well done for putting down your feelings! I'm so sorry to hear what problems you've had with timewasters & can't believe you haven't sold your beautiful mare.
Also sorry to hear that Zalim has been unwell, he is one stallion I'd love to be able to use, if my circumstances were different, my friends partbred by him is gorgeous, I really hope somebody will use him before it's too late! Another pic attached sent to me by Mrs Hodgson;
Zalim (Bayazar x Zareen).
Is there anything we can do collectively to help if we aren't in the position to do something by ourselves, for whatever reason? |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 11:53:08 AM
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I would like to add that Karrera and Shimsa are both stonking mares and would be a massive asset to anyone! Sadly, circumstances changed and prevented me from taking on Karrera, but if the situation were changed I'd be back up the A1 with a trailer like a shot!
Keren |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 1:06:27 PM
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The kettle is always on for you both Keren! The mares and offspring are all enjoying the snow and they are not going anywhere dont worry, its babies and youngsters that you wonder whether it is worth putting these mares in foal, particularly to English stallions!
We will run Karera and possibly Shameerah out with our Zalim sired young stallion, in the Spring, he is also out of one of Shimshas daughters who was by Crusader so 3/4 Barton Lodge 1/4 Egyptian so should be interesting! Rubbish picture of the boy Guisburn Zhalim below!
Anyway as a treat her is Shimshas' dam and sire, both bred at Barton Lodge by Lady May. Shimnar is very Courthouse in bloodlines and died as did Sayada a couple of years ago.
Sayada - El Shaklan out of Razehra
Shimnar - Samhan out of Atrisha
Hope you are both well
Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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Sheena
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1810 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 11:05:36 PM
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As you know Nikki I have Silvern Sheena who is 100% Old English, due to Rusleem this year. Would love to have a 100% old english foal from her one day, don't want to wish her life away. |
Alicia
     
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 12:19:12 AM
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I love the photos of Shimmar I saw him when I visited Barton Lodge Stud before Lady May Abel Smith died. I visited the stud regularly because of the Bahrain connection. Nuhra was an Asil Arabian mare bred at The Royal Stud of Bahrain and gifted in the 1930's by the then Amir HH Sheikh Hamed bin Isa Alkhalifa. The Royal Stud of Bahrain is a stud that has been passed down from father to son since 1783. They breed only from a gene pool of pure desert Arabians that have been in their keeping since they took the island of Bahrain. They have a very definite 'stamp' and it is easy to see the Bahrain influence in the excellent shoulder, limbs and conformation of Shimmnar.... and his very glamourous mane! He is very similar to one of my Bahraini stallions Shuwaiman Al Bahrain who also looks through a forelock that touches his nostril and a curtain of mane that hangs down below his shoulder. Nuhra was from the Wathna/Wadna family of Bahrain and sired by a Jellaby stallion. Sadly the Wadna family has been lost but the Jellaby family can still be found within the Royal Stud and two of my Bahraini mares are by a Jellaby stallion. It is interesting to see that 'Nuhra' offspring excel at Endurance because that is what my stallions enjoy most.....but then they are desert warhorses so a 50 mile gallop into battle and back home again was all in a days work and what (for centuries) they were selectively bred to do.
Jenny
PS. The Bahrain Royal Stud has a website www.royalbahrainstud.com
listed are over 20 families of Arabian horse families with photographs of His Majesty's horses. I dont know how to load up photos so my Bahraini's can be seen on my Pearl Island website it is remarkable how similar the horses are to Nuhra and her offspring. My best outcrosses to date have been Bahraini x Crabbet but I have recently had some success with Bahraini x Egyptian too. |
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 09:09:21 AM
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Hi Jenny, yes I remember George White saying you had taken him on an outing once, which he seemed to have throughly enjoyed. George doesnt get out of the house much, but when I was talking to Gails Hodgsons husband the other day, I understand that Georges daughter Pauline, had driven him up to their farm in North Yorkshire, which isnt too far away from where he lives now, as he likes to see Zalim.
The picture of Shimnar and Sayada, are both shown when they were in their 20's so not bad!
Love your stallions as you already know!
Melanie
- and to the other postees.......perhaps we should have some OE showing classes, checking pedigrees would be a bit of a chew, any ideas? |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member
Australia
795 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 09:26:59 AM
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We lived in Bahrain in the mid 80s when I was a child and I had one or two of the stud books from the Stud which I used to just drool over, deciding which line I would have a horse from one day! I must dig them out one day. They are gorgeous horses and always looked like the type of horse to a child that had the strength to take you on an adventure!
B |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 09:46:22 AM
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My mare as I have said previously on this thread is Crabbet/Old English breeding, she's 90 something Crabbet, but don't know about Old English percentage. Her last foal which was born last year is by my straight Egyptian stallion Ahanu who is 31% Crabbet. I was asked by someone a few years ago who was collating all Old English lines if I would consider putting her to an Old English stallion but up here as far as I know there is nothing and now sadly too late.
How do you feel about Crabbet/Old English mares who have had, I suppose, their genes diluted as I have done by Egyptian?
I just love the colt she has given me and it is not a problem to not geld him at the moment. Of course if I feel he is not good enough to keep entire I shall geld him but having seen many that have been kept entire I feel he certainly has quality. It has already been suggested I geld him because he won't do for the show ring also another friend says he'll make a cracking gelding and if I geld now will make another 3 inches. She thinks he doesn't have that something for a stallion and the first friend said about gelding him shortly after he was born! He has a cracking back end, is short coupled, lovely legs, and a well set neck although possibly a little steep in the shoulder. Also a lovely head and eye and nice temperament.
His dam is the white grey in my photos below and these photos do not do her justice. Unfortunately, she was ill and I eventually had to put her down on the recommendation of my vets in October. Something I try not to think about as she was a mare when on loan, by me and previously her breeder, was much misunderstood. The book the Silver Crabbet family of Australian describes her haughty, proud bearing to a tee something many people seemed to find a problem. I read it came from Silver Fire.
Another thing is she had Skowronek about 3 times in her lines and as he is not accepted by many what do you all think?
Wondering if anyone will answer my questions and often whatever it is with me they don't get answered!
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Edited by - Cate on 09 Jan 2010 09:50:36 AM |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 11:20:25 AM
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Sayada is a good example of my earlier comments .
She could be top of the line at any show.
English mares are a treasure trove and can breed well to outside stallion ,as El Shaklan was .
Could be interesting and profitable |
    
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Our English Heritage-where are they?
