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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 11:06:45 PM
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 Good luck!! I've searched on there but can't find it at all. Hopefully someone has the book and can post it for us. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 11:44:46 PM
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| Well I'll cross him off!! Yes it is him but he looks nothing like he does in my bookHe's a different colour!!!and looks like a different horse!! That's photography for you!...the search goes on......[( |
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 4:59:01 PM
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Mike posted a good photo of a plum liver chestnut on page 57 of the 'Test Your Knowledge' thread.
Caroline |
"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 5:58:49 PM
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After much research (and really I should get out more)I have found this example on an American website:
and
this is the desciption of the horse in question:
" KD Just Charge It, Khartoon Khlassic x Lady Amadeus. June 2003 Purebred Arabian bay silver dapple gelding. Just a darling horse, this guy loves people. He has a black and white mane and tail with muted black legs."
There is NO SUCH THING as muted black legs in any of the silver dapple colours ergo this horse is NOT bay silver dapple! Contrast with the true bay silver dapple below (and previously)
The silver dapple colour would not be expressed any differently in the Arabian breed than in the Icelandic, Rocky Mountain, Miniature horse etc of which there are clear examples.
However I have been emailed a report that suggests that the black silver mane and tail colour is the effect of the sabino gene. The colour genetics defining mane and tail colour however,have not yet been fully mapped.
The rather lovely Arab on page 57 (thank you!) is what used to be termed black liver chestnut - and still is in some breeds.
I have some very interesting photographs of what at first appear to be true silver dapple colouration in the Welsh Cob. The horses are not genetically silver dapple at all but show the effects of the sooty/smuuty gene on palomino and chestnut.
Therefore you CANNOT judge a horse to be 'silver dapple' unless you either test the DNA for the red factor gene or have enough evidence of TRUE silver dapple within the breed. 'Beholder's eye' is not a scientific approach to evaluating colour genetics within a given breed, in my opinion. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 6:18:40 PM
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Please excuse slight keyboard dyslexia on post above - trying to eat supper at same time[(
'smuuty' should of course be 'smutty'. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 7:13:26 PM
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Caroline~ Thanks for telling us about the picture Mike posted~ But who is it?? I couldn't find the name...might be blind!??
Also you said you had seen a simular photo in the Asil book. Do you have vol 3? If so did you see the photo I was talking about on Page 423? |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 8:41:06 PM
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From CJ's post:
"..MAGNIFICO, a most impressive rich liver chestnut stallion foaled in 1968 by Mikeno x Magnindra.." |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:25:35 PM
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And you don't get much plum than this:
http://www.pharafarm.com/burgundysun-1.html
but look how he is described black liver chestnut
I still abide by my argument that silver dapple is not present in arabians, but what we are seeing is a liver chestnut variant. |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:40:50 PM
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Absolutely Keren, but the owners are very cynically marketing him as 'silver dapple bay'.
I would however, have described him as 'blood bay' again pretty rare in Arabs - the true bay.
I had also forgotten how truly beautiful the Lewisfield Sun God lines were on the above link. Absolutely stunning and I would love to own a mare from those lines (in my dreams, sadly.) |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:44:21 PM
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| Thanks Azara,But I mean the photo that MIKE posted |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:48:17 PM
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| Ah yes Debonik - I see now *blushes* no idea, is he a Marbach stallion? |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:53:01 PM
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I think you're right! Is it TRUE COLOURS??......
Actually now I've seen other photo's of TRUE COLOURS I don't think so!! It's amazing what different photos can show! I followed your clue and found a picture quite like Mike's . |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 08 Jan 2006 11:00:43 PM |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 12:23:59 PM
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Are you sure you want silver dapple to be found in Arabians?
http://www.triple-s-ranch.com/about_color.htm
I still think we are looking at variant liver chestnut and there are no silver dapples in the Arabian breed, but would you want the colour with the associated risk of ASD? |
Edited by - Azara on 09 Jan 2006 12:24:55 PM |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 12:53:38 PM
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The liver chesnut mare on page 57 is AK Malouma(TheEgyptianPrince X SerenityBtMontaha).
Keren, are you refering to the "skunk tail" that seems to crop up in descendents of Fa Dena? If so a good example here in the UK would be SES Legacy's Comet.
Mike
PS Regarding Morhaf, it isn't uncommon in chestnut SE's for the mane to "bleach" white in the sun, I have a couple of mares who have very flaxen manes in the summer & dark ones in late winter/early spring. A fair dash of Moniet El Nefous blood seems to be the culprit for this. |
Edited by - Mike on 09 Jan 2006 1:07:01 PM |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 1:03:45 PM
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Thank you for introducing this topic Keren, it has opened up a wider debate (for me) than whether the silver dapple gene is found in Arabs. The geneticist I have been chatting to about this found this link:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/OxfordDunArabian.htm
Now, Arabians are not supposed to carry ANY dilute genes?
So how can this be?
Two theories:
The horse is not a purebred Arab - he has Turanian horse characteristics, a breed where dun/buckskin is found even though he is described as a 'high caste Arab'.
Or the colour has been selectively bred out possibly as being evidence of impure blood??
He is from Aleppo where nearly two hundred years later the Blunts are buying purebred stock.
And I need to chat with you about lavender colouration - how far back do your copies of AHS News go? |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 2:56:47 PM
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My geneticist colleague and I have approached a couple of labs in respect of DNA testing for the silver dapple gene in Arabians. We are currently drawing up a list of criteria for selection and also looking at some small research grants for funding. If we are successful, we will post again asking for volunteers to donate some of their horses mane/tail hair for research.
However, this may be a bit of a drawn out process and we are currently looking at the reliability and validity of the red factor test in predicting silver dapple colouration. |
Edited by - Azara on 12 Jan 2006 2:57:38 PM |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 10:40:53 PM
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I am aware of 18th century conventions in sporting art, I worked on an exhibtion of Fernleys. Does that mean we can discount Stubbs' portrait of a sabino 'Arab'?
It was an interesting point Keren, not a statement of fact.
It is however, a possibility that dun was in the Arabian breed and has been selectively bred out, for the reasons I stated in my post. |
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