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Kash
Platinum Member
England
3777 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 12:02:13 PM
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| Wow, I'd never heard of a 'bloody shoulder'! Is it possible to get 'real' black Arabs? |
      
Photographs by Emma Maxwell and Peter Grant |
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swalk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
769 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 1:43:00 PM
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| Have put 2 photos of Roan arab in gallery, look down bottom under 'swalk'. One is of him at 18 mnths although you can't see his backend which was always a bit lighter - the second is of him at around 7 yrs (I think). We last saw him when he was about 12 and his colour still hadn't faded out. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 3:32:38 PM
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Have become so fascinated by this subject I have been looking at lots of equine genetics sites.
Have found out that Jeroboam (Classic Crabbet stallion) was blue-eyed which is interesting from that whole Sabino/splash gene perspective.
Also the US company (currently mapping the equine genome) will test UK horses for the silver dapple gene.
www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/ |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 4:26:42 PM
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Here is a photo of my gentically black Icelandic mare showing the effect of the Z silver dapple gene.
If you lightened her mane and tail to silver you would have the classic Icelandic silver dapple colouration.The dilution of the black colouration is clear and Nott is a silver dapple carrier.
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 4:36:46 PM
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and showing summer coat colour, note slight roaning to face, she also has roaning thoughout her coat, particularly over the flanks. Her summer coat also has dapples.
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 5:25:34 PM
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To bring this back to Arabian colouration and the silver dapple gene is this the plum colouration?
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 6:34:04 PM
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There is a lab in the UK that will test for colour genetics, they have a satellite office here in the UK.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm
As there are so many colour variants that give the effect of a silver dapple colouration pattern without the underpinning genetics, the only way to ascertain if the silver dapple gene truly exists in Arabians is to test genetic samples.
My own hypothesis is that the plum with flaxen colouration is an expression of the sooty gene on a red base coat. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 12:14:19 PM
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I have been looking at other Eastern breeds to see if the silver dapple colouration occurs in these horses. It does not appear to occur at all.
www.turanianhorse.org/colors.html#color
Neither does it appear in the Caspian - although interestingly the cream colouration appears whereby this is absent in Arabians.
There is a suggestion on the above website that the colour 'liver chestnut' is not due to the sooty gene on red, but might be a separate genetic colour, which then makes the issue of the plum colour, in my mind, far more interesting. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 12:20:12 PM
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"Until recently it was thought that the Liver Chestnut was a manifestation of Sooty over Chestnut, but since Sooty countershading is uneven over the horse's body and Liver is not, these two colors are probably caused by different genes."
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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Anjuli
Bronze Member
Germany
100 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2006 : 07:10:38 AM
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I own a russian bred chestnut sabino Arabian mare (PadronsPsyche x Kubinec).
I love her markings very much, 4 high stockings, bellyspot, white hairs in mane and tail. With her hugh blaze she looks she's always smiling.
Sabino chestnut Arabians are not so rare, but since 2 years I'm looking for a black or dark bay mare/filly with noticeable sabino-markings AND typ and movement.
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Have a nice day
Marion
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2006 : 11:02:59 AM
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Here are some for you Anjuli http://www.sabinoarabs.com/sale.html
The first one is showing the splash pinto gene and would usually be described as such, rather than sabino. So looks like you will have to import from the US! |
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Anjuli
Bronze Member
Germany
100 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2006 : 4:31:12 PM
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I saw these horses before. But I don't like white heads with blue eyes. And the horses are not very typery.
Some Khartoon-fillys are very nice, but they are not for sale...
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Have a nice day
Marion
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2006 : 4:36:51 PM
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I have to agree that they seem to lack real quality and type, they seem quite coarse.
I am sure there must be sabino pattern bays in Europe - I just cannot remember seeing any. |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 5:43:18 PM
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Interesting, but I wouldn't suggest anyone rely on this as an accurate source of information, it's a *very* confused mix of stuff that bears little relation to either the Arab sources or current research.
Also, please note, it's only the Americans who have ever had any problem with sabino markings, no other country has ever had a bias against them!
Alison, there are bay (and black) sabinos around, it's just they are not as blatant as most of the chestnu onest. If you bear in mind that a sabino can be as minimal as my Biba, you'll see what I mean. Also, I'm afraid I can't go with your 'sooty' theory: it doesn't fit the evidence I have, and also the experts are currently divided as to whether sooty is in the Arab genepool or not...
Keren
Keren |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 7:13:39 PM
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I did have a look at my photo of Aramim, whom if memory serves me correctly was registered as a 'seal bay, looking at the photo (of her as a yearling) she has definite black shading to her topline which appears to mimic the sooty gene. However, I was interested in the fact that liver chestnut might be a whole separate colour gene, independent of 'sooty' and other variants. If that is indeed the case then the likelihood is that the plum colour with silver mane and tail is a liver chestnut variant,rather than a silver dapple. The silver dapple in Icelandics is well established, and as the Icelandic has been breed in a closed herd since the 10th century offers an excellent opportunity to study colour inheritance in equines. The colour you describe in Arabs does not match the colour we term silver dapple in Icelandics which makes me doubt it is true silver dapple at all - but I am happy to be proved wrong. You will need to pop along and see my Nott to see the colour I am referring to.
The only way to truly see if the silver dapple gene is present is to DNA test. I would, however like to see some photographs of the plum colour, my books did not appear to be very forthcoming. I do find it interesting that none of the other Eastern breeds show a silver dapple colour, but do have both the cream and buckskin/dun genetics absent in the Arabian. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 7:28:59 PM
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An example of silver dapple in Icelandics
An example of silver bay in Icelandics
The silver dapple has darker, lighter and sootier versions too but are all genetically silver dapples. It is because of these variant and silver related colours that I asked if the silver dapple colouration in Icelandics was the same as hypothesised in Arabs. |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 8:13:48 PM
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A very clear example of a silver dapple Icelandic
I must apologise for the seemingly endless reference to silver dapple in Icelandics, it is a breed that I am very familiar with in my post-Arab days. Also the Icelandic seems to run the whole gamut of equine colours bar spotted patterns and has been subject to colour inheritance studies. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 8:18:32 PM
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I've been looking for what I think is meant by 'Plum' colour.
I have found a picture in Asil Arabianslll page 423. Does anyone else have this book and could post a picture?...my scanner isn't workig..thanks..The horse is Morhaf. |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 07 Jan 2006 8:19:22 PM |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 9:03:55 PM
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This one certainly looks plum but without the silvering to mane and tail.
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 10:13:30 PM
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Keren, after my initial theory of the sooty gene causing the plum/silver/flaxen colouration I researched some more and posted:
There is a suggestion on the above website that the colour 'liver chestnut' is not due to the sooty gene on red, but might be a separate genetic colour, which then makes the issue of the plum colour, in my mind, far more interesting
and:
However, I was interested in the fact that liver chestnut might be a whole separate colour gene, independent of 'sooty' and other variants. If that is indeed the case then the likelihood is that the plum colour with silver mane and tail is a liver chestnut variant,rather than a silver dapple. |
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zara
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1066 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 10:15:52 PM
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| going back to sabinos, one of my mares is a bay sabino. white underlip, belly splash and roaning on chest. |
"to his virtues ever kind, and to his faults a little blind". |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 10:21:25 PM
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| I wish my scanner worked!! Morhaf(AkhtalxMahlaha)has a really light mane. I'm sure this is the colour we're looking for! |
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Azara
Bronze Member
England
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 11:02:46 PM
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| Thanks Deboniks - I will have a quick look on google. |
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