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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 3:48:48 PM
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The artist who painted the picture of Sham was Frank Turner, Caroline I just couldn't resist the pun!
I also love some of the old seventeenth and eighteenth century names, one of my favourites being Spanker (Darcy's Yellow Turk X Old Moroco Mare) grandsire of Cream Cheeks by the Leedes Arabian. The word "chesnut" came into use a little later on!According to the GSB Cream Cheeks dam (Spanker Mare) was by Spanker out of his dam Old Morocco Mare. Such inbreeding was not uncommon at the time, though by the end of the nineteenth century inbreeding had become morally repugnant.
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 5:05:51 PM
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Side tracking again, sorry, this time about the Godolphin Arabian. Balad El SHAM is the 'country of Syria/Lebanon' - did he come from that area hence his name? And the word Sham also means a rich trader.
Jane
P.S. My server here had blocked the pics but they're now unlocked so can see them all. |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 5:45:46 PM
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A little history regarding the Godolphin Arabian
quote:
Few horses have as much legend associated with them as does the Godolpin Arabian, but little evidence can corroborate the stories of him being found pulling a water cart in the streets of Paris, or being used as a teaser, or the dramatic stallion battle with Hobgoblin over the lovely, but fickle, mare Roxana.
The facts regarding his origin are few. He was imported from France in 1729 by Mr. Edward Coke, a gentleman with personal connections in France, especially with the Duke of Lorraine. The Duke of Lorraine, later Emperor Francis I of Germany, also figures in the history of the Belgrade Turk. Sir Marmaduke Wyvill, brother-in-law of Edward Coke, purchased the Belgrade Turk from the Duke and brought him to England. It can be presumed that Coke acquired the Godolphin Arabian via the French court, possibly from the Duke himself.
The stallion was probably one of several presented as tribute to the King of France by the Bey of Tunis. While in France he was described by Vicomte de Manty, who said his name was Shami, that he was beautifully-made although "half starved", with a headstrong temperament that made him unloved among the barn staff. It's very likely that he was in poor physical condition following his voyage from Tunis to the court of the French king, but it's unlikely that he ever was reduced to pulling a water cart in Paris.
Whatever his history, Mr. Coke brought the Arabian to England and stood him at his recently purchased Longford Hall in Derbyshire; in Coke's stud book he is referred to as "ye Arabian." The official story of the Arabian, later known as Lord Godolphin's, begins in 1731, when he covered Mr. Coke's Roxana, (ch.f. 1718) by the Bald Galloway, who was bred by Sir William Strickland. The following spring, Roxana foaled a bay colt by the Arabian, named Lath, who was said to be "a very elegant and beautiful horse," and who was later sold to the Duke of Devonshire.
Coke died in August, 1733 at the young age of 32. In his will, he left his small group of mares and foals, including Roxana and Lath, to a personal friend and fellow horseman, Francis, the second Earl of Godolphin, son of the controversial figure, Sidney, the first Earl. His stallions, including the Arabian, Whitefoot, and Hobgoblin, were left to another friend, Roger Williams. In 1733, the Earl acquired the Arabian from Williams, which is how the horse became known as the Godolphin Arabian. He was moved to the Earl's stud near Babraham in the Gog Magog Hills in Cambridgeshire, not far from the racing town of Newmarket. Lord Godolphin's mansion lay within the boundaries of the Iron Age fort known as Wandlebury Ring. The mansion was leveled in 1956, but the stables and other buildings remain on site.
I should also correct myself, in that Spanker's sire was Pelham's Bay Arabian a son of Darcy's Yellow Turk According to Lady Wentworth Darcy's Yellow Turk was presented to the Pasha of Damascus around 1658 before finding his way to England. There wasn't at this time a Royal Stud in England instead Darcy was paid a retainer of £800 per year to provide the King with "twelve choice horses" annually.
Mike |
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 8:35:40 PM
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Mike
Yes the painting was by F.C. Turner and the engraving by S. Mackrell. There is a companion one of Roxana to go with it, unfortunately I don’t own copies although I have a friend who does and they are quite big pictures and very lovely. I tried to find prints of the painting for sale in the UK but the only ones I’ve found on the Internet so far are in the USA – very odd.
There has always been doubt about some of the stories associated with the Godolphin Arabian and I don’t suppose we will ever know the truth but he did leave an outstanding legacy didn’t he. I thought he was buried at Godolphin house which is still standing and has the John Wootton portrait of him dated 1731 – minus crest interestingly. Lady Wentworth used to own the original of this and states that it was painted from life when the horse was 7 years old (plate 13 opposite pg 184 TB Racing Stock). I don’t know what happened to the painting after her death or if the picture at Godolphin House is a copy (or they obtained the original?) I have a photo of his grave which is covered by a large plain slab of stone (or is it marble?)
Yes, aren’t those old names wonderful! Lady Wentworth lists a number of them in her books and I always liked potoooooooo’s (pot8os or potatoes)
Jane
I was most interested to read your comments about ‘Balad El Sham’ and according to Lady Wentworth he did indeed come from Syria. She wrote the following about the Godolphin Arabian (1730-1753) on pg 184 (TB Racing Stock):
“As to his origin, Omar Pasha’s statement to Mr Skene, British Consul at Aleppo in 1878, was that the Godolphin was not an Anazeh horse but a well-known Jilfan Stamm el Bulad horse from Southern Arabia, and Lady Anne Blunt writes: “This is confirmed by Hamilton Smith’s reference to a MS. note he had seen stating the horse was one of the Guelfe, i.e. Jilfan (Jilfeh, pronounced Gilf by townsmen) blood of Yemen. His stable name of ‘Sham’ or ‘Shami’ (Syrian also Damascus) indicates his having been brought via Syria. Syria was the usual line of transit for anything pure bred to Tunis and further west. Lady Anne Blunt further enquired as to this during her journeys among the tribes, and found that the tradition of the exportation of a well-known dark bay Jilfan horse still existed, and she saw the Arabic MS. record at Damascus. Independently also Abd el Kader gave the same account when the Blunts visited him in Syria.”
She also discusses the Stubb’s portrait (and ‘the crest’) at great length and doubts that it is even of the Godolphin but another horse instead. She also mentions the F.C. Turner painting “which is undoubtedly done by a man who knew the Arabian type well. A print from this was published in Paris as an advertisement for Eugene Sue’s pamphlet. The original picture cannot at present be traced. The copy was painted in the 18th century and shows the horse mounted by an Eastern rider with Syrian saddle and bridle, and in Eastern dress.”
A few pages on she mentions Eugene Sue’s book (the ‘pamphlet’ above) ‘The Godolphin Arabian’ and that he “was a writer of fantastic romances.” It seems that most of the stories of ‘Sham’ pulling a cart in Paris and having the fight with Hobgoblin etc stem from this book which according to Lady W “All this is worthy of the best traditions of a penny novelette. Shorn of its picturesque extravagances the utmost that can be said for it is that it probably contains the skeleton of the gossip of his time.”
One may not always agree with Lady W but her books contain a staggering amount of information and are never dull!
By the way, does anyone remember the film that was made a few years back called ‘King of the Wind’? It was based on Marguerite Henry’s book and starred Nigel Hawthorne and a pretty bay Arabian (as ‘the Godolphin’) who I think was of Harwood breeding? Maybe someone knows?
What a fascinating topic this has been! Thank you to everyone who has come forward with comments, answers and contributions – I’ve really enjoyed it and I hope other ‘ALiners’ have too!
Best wishes
Caroline
Jane, please don't apologise for 'sidetracking,' its wonderful to have input from someone with your knowledge and experience. I was most interested to read your thoughts on breeding earlier and hope we can continue to discuss this and see some photos of the horses you have now. By the way, is it true that ‘Sham’ also means ‘sun’ as I’d always understood that it did.
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"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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Edited by - C.J. on 26 Jun 2005 8:39:14 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
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1872 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 9:44:43 PM
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Hi Caroline,
I will confess to prefering the picture of Roxana Pot8os is another favourite of mine too! The races back then were a little harder than those of today too! Regarding Old Careless a son of Spanker(who appears in the pedigree of every modern TB) quote:
Said to be the only racehorse mentioned by name in Macaulay's History of England, Careless appears to have stepped effortlessly into the legendary shoes of his sire. In 1698 he barely lost a £500 match at Newmarket, made by Lord Hervey, against the King's Stiff Dick, with Careless, the 7 to 4 favourite, carrying 9 stone, and giving away "perhaps 5 st. over as many miles" to Stiff Dick who carried a "feather". Lord Hervey won 1170 guineas on this match.
I have often wondered if Old Bald Peg would be surrounded by admirers! Though the "bald" refers to having a white face and not to a lack of hair, and the "old" differentiates her from her daughter Young Bald Peg.
How about a nice easy one for a Sunday evening?
Mike |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 10:58:44 PM
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| I reckon the photo was taken at Crabbet, and was the horse on the end of a group or something??? |
       
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 05:05:05 AM
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It's Risala. As Pat says, in the photo, she's at the end of a group of mares held by Lady Wentworth, the other mares being Ajjam, Kibla, Riyala and Rim (The Crabbet Arabian Stud by Archer, Pearson and Covey, page 172).
The sun in Arabic is shams Caroline. |
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pat day
Moderator
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5324 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 08:47:12 AM
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I recognised the fence Jane from other photos
was it the book Crabbet Arabian Stud, History and Influence???? It only lists Rosemary Archer on Amazon.
Thanks in advance, Pat x |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TREASURES AT TEMPLEWOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 09:02:44 AM
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Yes Pat, it's 'The Crabbet Arabian Stud - Its History and Influence' published by Alexander Herriot in 1978, authors as said earlier. The copy I have is old so it doesn't have an ISBN number but maybe it was never re-printed so I have a tatty much used first edition LOL!! It's a MUST HAVE book with lots of information on Crabbet Stud and where horses where sold to, and also with old photos so really recommend you buy it. The price on the flysheet on the one I have is £18, how much is it now on Amazon?
Jane
I just bought one Jane for £25. Thanks for the info. Pat.
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Edited by - pat day on 27 Jun 2005 2:23:16 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 12:31:18 PM
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Well done Jane and Pat! I didn't expect that using part of a group photo was going to fool anyone! The book is a veritable goldmine of information but I have no idea how much it would cost to get hold of a copy these days.
Here is another picture to be going on with!
Mike |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 1:20:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by C.J.
By the way, does anyone remember the film that was made a few years back called ‘King of the Wind’? It was based on Marguerite Henry’s book and starred Nigel Hawthorne and a pretty bay Arabian (as ‘the Godolphin’) who I think was of Harwood breeding? Maybe someone knows?
Caroline
I understood the earliest portrait of the Godolphin was by David Morier (there is a version in the Museum at Newmarket), not painted from life but from accounts by people who knew the horse when alive. This *does* show the crest. Morier was a french artist, and his work is rather more lifelike than the hieratic style which was fashionable amongst English equestrian artists of the time. Stubbs lived some considerable time after the Godolphin died.
I *think* the horse in the (rather poor) film adaptation was actually bred by Mrs Murray, and was a gelding called something like Gleaming Magic.
Incidentally, one of the chariot drivers in Ben Hur was 'Nosher' Powell, British stuntman and film 'heavy' who was one of the people involved in getting jousting restarted in Britain as a competitive sport in the late 1960s - both my OH and Elaine Mann's late husband jousted against him!
Keren |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 1:33:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vygoda
Caroline,
Don't you think that when a breeder gets into a 'closed' breeding plan or programme of whatever bloodlines, they hit a wall so to speak in order to progress or improve the quality of their stock? In other words, they run out of breeding options or they end up breeding paper to paper and disregard the horse standing in front of them.
Jane
Jane, I am going to both agree and disagree with you!
Personally, I thing preservation breeding programmes ARE important, *BUT* those involved need to be very careful of what they do and never lose sight of the end goal, which as you rightly say is a horse, not just a bit of paper. Henry Babson did this very successfully, but not all of the horses produced by those who have carried on his programme have been of the same quality that he insisted on, and should really have been weeded out.
OTOH, there are certain Egyptian programmes which seem early to have lost sight of the end product, and the result is horses which in each generation consolidate the defects of their predecessors, and which as they are not put to any functional test, are becoming more like lapdogs than horses. I would definitely not include any of these lines in my own person programme, even though I appreciate certain Egyptian qualities.
However, to sucessfully carry out a 'mixed' bloodline programme you need an overall vision that is if anything even more rigorous than the preservationist, because you have to weed out the ones that don't work very early! That is where a state stud can be more successful than an individual - and also because they have a greater span of time in which to work with their material. Nowadays, very few big breeders of Arabs stay the course for more than a couple of generations (Al Waha being a very notable exception!), so you end up with a mish-mash of bloodlines, some of which may nick, but more of which are likely to be just a fairly randon assembly of genes. That is why the small breeders are so important to the breed - they may not put as many foals on the ground, but they are more likely to stick with what they know 'works' as they do not have the money to throw around on this year's fashionable horse!
I wish there were more studs like Al Waha that were in it for the long run...
Keren |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 3:00:45 PM
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Mike,
That photo has to be in Egypt in the early days as the gentlemen are all wearing fezs' (don't know the plural for fez!), and I recognise the balcony where they are sitting from other photographs. But the horse, hmmmm .......... ain't got a clue!
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 3:31:02 PM
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Quite right Jane, the photo was taken in Egypt The plural of fez is fezzes by the way, merely a minor effort on my part to maintain the educational content of this thread!
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 4:48:19 PM
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Keren and Caroline,
Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated. The following is just a bit about my own experiences thinking about expanding knowledge and information.
I have always loved and been interested in the Arabian as a performance horse but the biggest mistake I made was to decide to breed for the racetrack with American-bred stallions; it set us back about 4 years as only the odd foal had much quality plus most didn't run that fast anyway  . So it was back to the drawing board and have a re-sort of what i was doing and where I was going.
Then not every stallion you buy is a consistent sire which adds to the breeding conundrum so how long do you continue to use him on the off-chance of getting a good foal? Back to the drawing board again!!
The gene pool at the stud was getting smaller and smaller mainly because I was/am  so picky about the stallions. What to do?
The Maleik El Kheil foals out of homebred mares were a revelation so we are including El Shaklan blood now through him. And the Simeon Sadir foals look very promising too.
Of course i will continue to TRY to 'preserve' my English and Russian lines but it's tough to do as you say. A state stud breeds so many foals a year that they have more chance of having continuers/keepers and of course we never hear about or see the ones that were no good.
I sent Dahisha (Imad x Dancing Queen) to Silvern Risalm this year and she is checked in foal so that will hopefully be another one to add to my English band. So far, my Russian pool is wide enough to carry on though Cullingworth Stud have on lease a very exciting colt called Nadir Ibn Krushinka (bred by Mr Sax in Germany) with masses of type, quality and style that would suit some of my Russian mares very well but he came into England too late this season for me to use.
When we have visitors to the stud when I am in England, I bore and blank them out saying to them look and learn, continually evaluate what you have bred, and for what reason, and is it good enough? And if not good enough, why not?
I would really like to hear from other breeders what mistakes they have made and what they did/corrected.
Don't you think it would be great to hold a hands-on 2 day seminar with guest speakers/breeders, slides, etc and at the end have people judge the horses presented to them and for them to talk about why they picked them?
Jane
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 7:10:53 PM
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Mike
I don’t recognise the horse in your photo either! If its one I know I will kick myself from here to Christmas!
Jane
Quote: “When we have visitors to the stud when I am in England, I bore and blank them out saying to them look and learn, continually evaluate what you have bred, and for what reason, and is it good enough? And if not good enough, why not?”
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Honest evaluation and a good sound grounding in correct equine structure and confirmation might spare us from some of the faults that we now see before us in the show ring especially legs - my personal bugbear.
Keren
Quote: “Nowadays, very few big breeders of Arabs stay the course for more than a couple of generations (Al Waha being a very notable exception!), so you end up with a mish-mash of bloodlines, some of which may nick, but more of which are likely to be just a fairly random assembly of genes. That is why the small breeders are so important to the breed - they may not put as many foals on the ground, but they are more likely to stick with what they know 'works' as they do not have the money to throw around on this year's fashionable horse!”
How true! Just think of the number of studs we’ve seen come and go over the years. Like you, my main concern is the mad craze for breeding to the latest fashion with the end result, as you rightly say, of a ‘mish-mash’ of bloodlines (and the loss of some of our English lines too). My other worry is the owner/breeder who can tell you about the horses in the first 3 generations or so in the pedigree and then have no knowledge or interest in the horses further back (or indeed call them ‘straight’ Egyptian or some other bloodline when they are anything but) And there are those who proudly show you the pedigree not noticing the errors in it……..that’s why this thread is so timely as hopefully it will discuss bloodlines, portray some of the older (and newer) horses so that we can see where certain traits come from and learn, learn, learn – thanks again Bob for starting it.
Best wishes
Caroline
PS Jane - What an excellent idea about a seminar! Please sign me up for a place in the front row now!
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"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 7:13:25 PM
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Pat
Forgot to say there should be a corrigenda slip for 'The Crabbet Arabian Stud' book. If its missing from your copy let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.
Caroline
When it arrives I will check Caroline, Many Thanks Pat. |
"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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Edited by - pat day on 27 Jun 2005 8:09:40 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 8:16:32 PM
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I will admit that whilst such a view may not be in line with current thinking, I much prefer horses with decent legs, and which at least look as though they would be fun to ride! But "pretty" is a much easier goal to attain than "correct" and if this is what seems to be rewarded in the showring then who can blame a newer generation of breeders from persueing it! I would also suggest (and this will no doubt get me hung from the nearest lamp post!!) that "Egyptian" breeders are amongst the most sublimely "fashion conscious" of all, willing to overlook the most dreadfull faults providing the horse has a pretty face and is "well bred" according to whatever the current dictat is. There is also a noticeable lack of horses with good pedigree's by which I mean those which demonstrate a consistent pattern of breeding over several generations rather than something with lots of famous names in it (ie Keren's "mish-mash" ).
I think that the idea of a seminar is wonderfull, the best way to learn is by having a relaxed and informal discussion with those who have a wealth of knowledge and experience to pass on.
Mike |
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Libby Frost
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United Kingdom
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 07:47:05 AM
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Ok guys, first thoughts on a seminar.
To start it off, it could be a one-dayer at my stud, say mid-august THIS YEAR. A friendly and informative day, everyone free to comment and ask questions.
Limit it to 30 people or maybe 40 tops.
Anyone who had to travel a distance could stay in a local B and B and also look at all my horses the next day.
People bring their own refreshments and a chair to sit in.
I have 2 portable and waterproof canopies but another 2 would be good - you know the stripey jobs.
I would provide tea back at my house at the end of the day and if people brought their photograph albums, others could then browse through them.
Speakers on pedigrees, conformation, history, and the modern day show horse.
Horses available for conformation discussion and also show generations of families in groups.
Assessment in the afternoon where people have to write down and say why in detail they like or dislike a particular horse.
A charge of £10 per person to cover speakers' travel expenses unless they do it for free.
Ideas for speakers? Planning of the day? Date? Subjects?
Rather than clutter up this thread, please email me on jane@kadri.org with your ideas.
Jane
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 09:02:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike
I will admit that whilst such a view may not be in line with current thinking, I much prefer horses with decent legs, and which at least look as though they would be fun to ride! But "pretty" is a much easier goal to attain than "correct" and if this is what seems to be rewarded in the showring then who can blame a newer generation of breeders from persueing it! I would also suggest (and this will no doubt get me hung from the nearest lamp post!!) that "Egyptian" breeders are amongst the most sublimely "fashion conscious" of all, willing to overlook the most dreadfull faults providing the horse has a pretty face and is "well bred" according to whatever the current dictat is. ).Mike
I too want a horse with good legs that is fun to ride! However, there are Egyptian breeders and Egyptian breeders! Those who are fixated on Nazeer lines to the exclusion of everything else are to my mind the worst offenders in the 'horse as art' syndrome, and by and large it has produced a lot of very faulty animals which often don't have the temperament to do well under saddle either. OTOH, those who concentrate on Old Egyptian and non-Nazeer do have a more rounded view of what the animal is for (these lines have pretty constantly produced good performers).
I'm not saying all Nazeer blood is bad - used intelligently it is valuable (look at Aswan!). Concentrated to the 'nth' degree you get bad forearms, bad legs, short necks and an inability to withstand mental stress.
Keren |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 09:52:03 AM
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| I would love to come to this seminar, anyone who says they know it all are sadly kidding themselves, we can all learn more everyday! I love this thread and I think it should go to a forum of its own ! Admin please???? Jane if it is in August I wont be able to come as my family will be visiting from Dallas, couldnt it be at the end of the show season????? maybe september when it is still warm?? |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 10:27:26 AM
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Lynda,
I will only be in the UK from 2 July until 27 August 'cos i have to work to pay for the horses. Maybe you need a day off from your relations LOL?
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 12:45:14 PM
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| i would be interested,sounds like a good idea and i'd love to see your horses Jane!! |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 2:07:40 PM
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| Can you put my name down too please. I think this is a wonderful idea - thanks Jane for offering your stud and horses. |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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