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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 10:09:05 AM
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Caroline,
Don't you think that when a breeder gets into a 'closed' breeding plan or programme of whatever bloodlines, they hit a wall so to speak in order to progress or improve the quality of their stock? In other words, they run out of breeding options or they end up breeding paper to paper and disregard the horse standing in front of them. We imported Aboud from the UAE at our own expense 5 years ago to continue our English lines but sadly, he never got a mare in foal; Aboud would have given us that outcross we needed.
Due to a breeder's idiosyncrasies (SP) or choice/selection (including mine i have to say!!) about having certain horses in pedigrees, the available field of bloodlines keeps getting narrower so it seems to me that there is no choice but to breed out.
And after all, when you look at what succesful historical studs have done, they haven't stuck to one bloodline. When an outside horse is used in a programme, they suddenly become part of that country like in Russia or Poland.
I really think that the most important part of breeding is to know if possible what the ancestors of horses in a pedigree looked like plus how they have bred on and try to analyse their good and bad points and what you hope to receive in a foal today.
So thanks Bob for starting this thread. Off my soapbox!!
Jane
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 12:56:15 PM
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At the risk of going even further off at a tangent I couldn't agree more! When breeding "straight" there is a very real risk of ending up in a corner with simply nowhere to go!This is partly due to our own personal likes/dislikes regarding what we like to see in a pedigree and also that people breeding similar bloodlines tend to make very similar breeding decisions. Within a generation or two a goup of breeders can find that they all have pretty much the same bloodlines with very few real differences between breeding programmes. Having the choice of half a dozen or more stallions of essentially the same breeding for example is to have no real choice at all!
In order to maintain a "straight" breeding programme it seems to me that you need one eye on the past (in order to be able to evaluate the influence that past generations have had on your horses), one eye on the present (so that you can make sensible and informed breeding decisions) and one eye on the future (so as to try to assess the consequences of the decisions you make in the present) These requirements leave most of us at least one eye short!
Mike |
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 1:18:11 PM
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Jane and Mike
You echo my thoughts entirely and I couldn’t have put it any better! (I’m a bit worried about Mike though, if I see someone wandering around Malvern with 3 eyes I’ll know who it is! )
To me the whole point of this thread is to learn more about our wonderful breed and have fun at the same time. It’s not a competition and it doesn’t matter if you don’t know the answers or like the animal in question, after all, there are lots of horses which I don’t like but it doesn’t stop me recognising them. So to get it back on course here is a new photo to puzzle over. You’ll recognise it as a sculpture based on a famous Arabian so the questions are:
Who is the famous Arabian?
A well known children’s book was written about this horse – what was the title and who was the author?
The sculpture was based on a print of the horse – who was the artist?
And….who was the sculpture/sculptress?
Thinking caps on!
Caroline
Lynda, I don't personally know the answer to your question re the horses in Ben Hur but I bet someone else does |
"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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Edited by - C.J. on 25 Jun 2005 1:20:51 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 1:56:24 PM
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Caroline,
You didn't ask but the rider depicted is Agba, I won't answer the questions you did ask or at least not yet
I can confirm however, that I have but two eyes, to claim three would be something of a Sham would it not!!
Mike
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Edited by - Mike on 25 Jun 2005 2:01:14 PM |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 5:40:55 PM
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| Thanks Caroline I was begining to think I was being ignored!! come on then Bob you must know, Who were the four white horses used in the film Ben Hur and where did they come from I have always wanted to know, Lynda xx ( they were pure bred arabians) |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 6:23:03 PM
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Lynda,
The names of the arabian horses in the film Ben Hur, were Altair, Antares, Aldabaran and Rigel, though you will be disappointed to learn that the white horses used in the film for Charlton Heston's chariot were Lippizaners leased from the stud in Lipica, so although so far as the script was concerned the Sheikhs white horses were arabian, the actual horses used weren't. Sorry!
Mike |
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barb
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
161 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 6:29:34 PM
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well, lots of food for thought here at the moment. Sorry lindylou, but I do not have a clue about the horses in Ben Hur, the film terrified me! Anyway back a bit to likes and dislikes in pedigrees, this should be the beginning of our next topic! I have in the course of my working life with Arabians worked with many different types and pedigrees, most I have to say I truly adored and loved them all as if they were my own, BUT, I am very fussy with the breeding of my own horses and have certain stigmas attached because of traits from certain indivuals, so is this worthy of a new thread......come on Bob lets have a bit of news and views from you or are you having tea in B.P?
best wishes Barb |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 7:00:30 PM
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The book is "King of the Winds" by Marguerite Henry. It is the classic story of Sham and his friend, the stable boy Agba. Their adventures take them from the sands of the Sahara to the royal courts of France and, finally, to the green pastures and stately homes of England. Sham was the renowned Godolphin Arabian, whose blood flows through the veins of almost every superior thoroughbred. Sham's speed--like his story--has become legendary.
source: http://www.gps.edu/srhome6%202005.htm
As for the artist, I don't have a clue - but since the entire A-team is on it, I have no doubt it won't last too long
 Anne |
     
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
Edited by - Anfi on 25 Jun 2005 7:04:20 PM |
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Sadika
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3520 Posts |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 7:26:47 PM
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Well Anne, Thankyou,
I got that too, but I thought it couldnt be right, so didnt dare post.
I am very interested to know who sculptured it, I bought
'Horse with the Golden Saddle' and must not be tempted for another, if theres ever any available.
I keep logging on to find out!!!!! |
       
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TREASURES AT TEMPLEWOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 7:34:51 PM
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Just to help (or hinder)this is the painting In case you are wondering about the neck looking incredibly "cresty" ... thank George Stubbs. His painting of Sham (which was done after the horses death) was the first to feature the enormous crest and subsequent artists followed suite! I think that the colour is slightly wrong in this particular print as the horse was dark brown and not black.
Mike
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 7:36:55 PM
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Hi Barb,
No I’m still here, this may be a good time to explain why I started this thread.
I was a long time member of another forum, even the old one and I loved it, so many nice people, they all could be called experts, although none would place themselves so high, so it’s fair to say Very Experienced, people like my dear friends Gari-Dil-Marlow, Caryn Redosky, Liz Salmon, just to mention three. It was an open University for Arabian Horse lovers, no matter what standard, then slowly but surly nasty people crept in, people with no Names but with manners befitting only the lowest of the low, at first I was tolerant of these few people but just as a river flows to the sea they like the river got stronger and deeper, I and many others asked the owners,(two very nice people) to make it a members only forum, but this fell on deaf ears, unlike the owners of this site, they seem to love the nastiness.
I hope that this forum will become the NEW open university, a place where people at all levels, weather large breeders, or the person who owns No Arabian Horses can sit in a classroom with Nice experienced people and learn something every time we log on. There are people here who have the experience and most of all, the willingness to pass on freely to others their vast knowledge, as demonstrated in this thread.
I also feel that this thread has demonstrated that people want to learn and I would now ask Sean and Paula to consider making a section for our own University.
Now as I know nothing about Caroline’s sculpture, it’s a good time to tell everyone who answered my BB quiz that most of you got it correct.
Only the name of the movie is missing??
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 9:36:35 PM
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Caroline I notice you posted at 8:38 pm but it dose not show in this thread, so I hope you don't mind if I put this one up.
Who is this horse ????
One clue.....he is Crabbet
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 11:01:41 PM
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Hi Barb,
No I’m still here, this may be a good time to explain why I started this thread.
I was a long time member of another forum, even the old one and I loved it, so many nice people, they all could be called experts, although none would place themselves so high, so it’s fair to say Very Experienced, people like my dear friends Gari-Dil-Marlow, Caryn Redosky, Liz Salmon, just to mention three. It was an open University for Arabian Horse lovers, no matter what standard, then slowly but surly nasty people crept in, people with no Names but with manners befitting only the lowest of the low, at first I was tolerant of these few people but just as a river flows to the sea they like the river got stronger and deeper, I and many others asked the owners,(two very nice people) to make it a members only forum, but this fell on deaf ears, unlike the owners of this site, they seem to love the nastiness.
I hope that this forum will become the NEW open university, a place where people at all levels, weather large breeders, or the person who owns No Arabian Horses can sit in a classroom with Nice experienced people and learn something every time we log on. There are people here who have the experience and most of all, the willingness to pass on freely to others their vast knowledge, as demonstrated in this thread.
I also feel that this thread has demonstrated that people want to learn and I would now ask Sean and Paula to consider making a section for our own University.
Now as I know nothing about Caroline’s sculpture, it’s a good time to tell everyone who answered my BB quiz that most of you got it correct.
Only the name of the movie is missing??
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barb
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
161 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 07:35:49 AM
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| Hello Bob, thanks for your reply, I was not implying anything underlying and nasty, but more in the line of Pieces Of Perfection, this was a fascinating explanation of which parts of individual horses in Russia went to make the best sort of offspring, i.e Aswan undisputedly put Prettyness onto the plainer. So i just thought we could have some more up to date input. Barb |
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barb
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
161 Posts |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 07:56:05 AM
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I have a big glitch on my new state-of-the-art laptop - I can't see the photos!! I have emailed Sean and Paula for help!!! I can hear a sigh of relief from you all LOL.
I seem to remember that there is a Stubb's exhibition on now through the Summer I think at the Mathaff gallery in London that must be worth a visit. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Jane
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 09:58:19 AM
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Hi Barb,
I didn't think that for one moment, It just seemed a good time to tell every one why and we are starting to get some good input now,
Abu Farwa NO
Jane,
To see imiges you need to have JAVA script swiched ON maybe that is your problem, I will e-mail you the pic's that I posted.
Bob
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 10:37:00 AM
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Bob
Thanks for your very thoughtful posting and for telling us the reason why you started this thread; I know I’m not the only one who is very grateful that you did. I think too that I know which forum you are alluding to and share your feelings about it. What finally drove me away was the continued sniping, not just by the unnamed posters but by one breeder in particular against another’s horses – there is no reason for that and it is pure bad manners. The result is that the threads, which are often fascinating, end up being locked due to sheer nastiness, most unnecessary and such a waste. Whilst it’s true that we occasionally have upsets and misunderstandings on this forum, they are quickly sorted out and we move on because we all share something in common – a great love for a wonderful and truly unique animal. I therefore hope that this can become your vision of an ‘Open University for the Arabian Horse’ – a worldwide exchange of knowledge and information on the breed that we all love so much - what a wonderful thought!
Now, we still have your last question regarding BB to answer and I’m afraid this has defeated me. I knew Ken Maynard was an early movie star in the silent era and made the transition into ‘talkies,’ I could also give you a list of his films but which one was about BB (as in Buffalo Bill and not Brigitte Bardot) I have no idea. Can you tell us please? Out of curiosity, is the cutting out of an old copy of The Arabian Horse News (USA)?
As to your latest photo – I know who it isn’t and that’s Abu Farwa who was a lovely stallion and a great producer (and I wish he’d been used in the UK). I’m going to stick my neck out on this and say it is Crabbet – the horse.
Regarding the sculpture – I’ll post separately about this later as there are still some questions to be answered (go for it Marilyn!)
Kind regards
Caroline
PS Jane, I do hope you get your laptop fixed soon, we miss you!
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"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 10:44:08 AM
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Jane
I forgot to add that the Stubbs exhibition is at the National Gallery and I think the Mathaff is running one on Peter Upton's paintings - now what a day out that would be!
Bob
You know more about this sculpture than you realise! Go back to some of your early postings, hint hint!
Caroline |
"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 1:27:17 PM
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| I hope that Paula and Sean take you up on your suggestion of a seperate section for this topic Bob, it is truly a good thing, long may it continue! Mike thanks for your information and I agree the horses used in the charriot races must have been another breed , but surly the horses in the tent scene where true arabians? if not I will be really upset as I always loved that scene. |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 1:27:31 PM
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Caroline
Regarding the BB thread yes it was taken from The Arabian Horse News, secondly I too have no Idea as to the name of the movie that Ken Maynard played BB, I was hoping someone could tell me.
Crabbet the horse is the correct answer. well done
This should be of interest to our endurance members
Barbra
This is Abu Farwa
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BobandEna
Gold Member
England
828 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 1:43:47 PM
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Caroline
Sorry, I forgott to say the name of the sculture is Pamela du Boulay
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barb
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
161 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 2:12:06 PM
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Thanks for photo of Abu Farwa Bob, what a beauty he was, I have just found a photo of Crabbet, he evidently carried 171/2 stone in the race! amazing.
Barb |
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 2:52:56 PM
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Bob
Glad Crabbet was the right answer; thought it was him as he was rather ummmm…....how shall I say this..…’distinctive’ in appearance.
Yes, you ‘got it on the nose’ – the sculptress was Pamela H du Boulay and Anne, you’re right, the book is ‘King of the Wind – The Story of the Godolphin Arabian’ by Marguerite Henry and illustrated by Wesley Dennis, originally published in 1948. (It was awarded the 1949 John-Newbery Medal for the most distinguished contribution to American literature for children). And as Mike said, the boy in the book is called Agba and his previous ‘pun’ gave the name of the horse - Sham. It’s this book, more than any other that, as a child growing up in Canada, started my long term ‘love affair’ with the Arabian horse.
The sculpture is of the Godolphin Arabian based on the picture that Mike posted (thanks Mike for doing this and explaining about the ‘Stubb’s’ crest). The one bit of information we are missing is who painted the original picture  (Answers on a postcard to the usual address!)
The model itself is made out of a vinyl material which had to be baked, coloured, and then baked again in an oven. This was always a nerve racking experience as occasionally a sculpture, which had taken weeks to do, would crack beyond repair (or sometimes got ‘overcooked’!) Pamela made two of these ‘Godolphin Arabians,’ starting each one from scratch as they weren’t cast and they were on metal armatures. This gave them a degree of flexibility which was a little worrying when travelling with them in a box on your lap, during the trip to and from the Arab Horse Society Show at Syon Park, where you felt every bump and bend in the road. One of the models was featured on the cover and inside ‘The Arabian’ Vol 1 No 3 (which also carried a full page colour photograph of ‘The Shah’ in the USA prior to his importation to the UK).
So its just one question to go and whilst waiting for anymore answers I hope you won’t mind if I tie up a loose end on Witez II. I thought it would be nice to post a photograph of him even though it unfortunately didn’t ‘upload’ properly so apologies for the fact the bottom part of it is missing. Anyway, this is Witez II at the age of 15 and he was the subject of the book ‘And Miles To Go’ that we discussed a few pages back…….
Best wishes
Caroline
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"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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