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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 11:28:42 AM
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Yes....can understand why stallion owners withhold covering certificates. Some years back a well known Show Pony Breeder, booked her mare in to our Part Bred Arab 14.2hh stallion. The Pony arrived, the Owner saying that she was off on business in USA and would be away for six weeks, so could we keep the Mare,(stabled and rugged for showing) until tested in foal and she would phone on her return.
No problem....The mare got in foal....and seven weeks on, still no phone call from her owner. We phoned, "So sorry.....been very busy since return How much do we owe you...thats fine, will you transport her back (her horsebox in for Plating) and will settle up with your Hubby when he arrives here"
OH arrived at her Stud (quite a long distance)...no one about except her gardener. "Oh, she had to go out unexpectedly...leave the mare in stable, and your Invoice, she will send cheque in post"
Alarm bells starting to ring!! We were right to be concerned. Many phone calls later, letters sent...nothing!! Stud Fee, Livery fee and transport amounted to quita a sum, but we were wasting our time, she clearly had no intention of paying!!
Some weeks later, browsing H & H...advert: Top Show Pony Mare, in foal to Champion 14.2hh Pony Sunray Scenario !!! Jumps on phone
The advertiser had been handed over the Mare, as part of an owing debt, and this new owner, was about to ring me for the covering certificate. Original Owner had not paid, so no covering certificate issued!! She insisted I gave her this ladies number, (she herself being very eminent in the Show Pony World)
Two weeks went by, then, a very abusive letter, accompanied by the long overdue payment...what a surprise!! Dont know what the advertiser said to her, but it certainly prompted her to make immediate payment We then sent advertiser the covering certificate, along with a thankyou note, and the Mare was sold!!
The resulting foal, went on to become one of the top 13.2hh Show Riding Ponies in the Country, ammassing some 30+ Championships and HOYS winnings.
We were very lucky to have got our money. Since that time, we have learned not to be so trusting. All stud and livery fees have to be fully paid on collection of visiting mares. (covering certificates are issued upon clearance of cheque, if owners are not known to us)
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 08 Mar 2009 11:36:37 AM |
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tut 99
Silver Member
401 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 11:40:50 PM
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| There are some breeders that have two prices for there foals, that is one price for registered and one for unregistered!! This sometimes works for both parties, as said before they then save on the transfer fee. But then when new owner changes or backs out of this type of agreement and thinks that the breeder should of paid for registration,then the trouble starts.Please REMEMBER there are always two sides to every story . |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 07:39:19 AM
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Have to disagree here. IMO it is the breeders` responsibility to register foals they have bred!! If you cannot afford to register your foal.....can you afford to feed it, or its Dam??
When you cover your Mare, you are aware of the cost of registration fees etc., so if you cant afford to register the foal.....then you should not be breeding a foal in the first place!! IMO
Far too many foals are being bred by irresponsible people, who think there is money to be made.........this is very rarely the case, with the exception of very high class breedings.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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bexr
Gold Member
England
818 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 08:18:36 AM
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| I think you now need the vet to do the marking because this is a Defra ruling on Passport application, which you get once your foal is registered. So how are these unregistered foals getting a passport? |
Bex |
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Bex
Gold Member
Wales
559 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 09:28:29 AM
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With reference to the point raised by Tut 99, NEVER, at any time did the possibility of buying an unregistered foal ever enter my head. I was perfectly clear from the word go that I wanted a foal that I could show which was why I clearly stipulated that fact and paid the going rate for a registered youngster. But nevertheless thanks for the thought tut 99! Perhaps it may help any future prospective owner avoid the trap I fell into.
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Edited by - Bex on 09 Mar 2009 09:31:14 AM |
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M Robson
Silver Member
Wales
398 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 09:38:49 AM
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Just to put things clear for all, we managed to get a covering certificate off the stallions owner, stallion is on loan). It all boils down to the fact we could not get a breeders signature from this lady and she has refused to pay reg fee. She has stated on numerous occasions that the information is with the AHS (but if you contact them you will find each time no papers arrived).
I have paid for his reg fee £162 and have paid for his markings and DNA, i am just waiting for the passport, i did this to help my friend, who would do it for me in a heart beat if i needed help.
Tutt99 People will make there own minds up about this lady, but i WILL defend my friend who is a gentle and honest lady, she would not lie she simple wanted no others to go through this drama, as it has caused many problems of which Becci has chose not to disclose.
Becci tried to be nice and civil with this lady only to be met with abuse and hostility at each turn. THIS LADY SAID THE PAPERS WERE SORTED AND WITH AHS, BECCI'S ONLY CRIME IS BEING TRUSTING ENOUGH TO TAKE THAT AS THE TRUTH. As said previously we are not alone in this, this has been done to others.
I am not going to reply to this again, i am affraid of loosing my cool and that gets nobody any where.
BECCI I AM BEHIND YOU 100% and admire you for highlighting this as i know you have lost many hours of sleep deciding if you should let people know, if you had not this would have happened again to someone else. |
www.marley-arabians.co.uk |
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M Robson
Silver Member
Wales
398 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 09:41:43 AM
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the real dilemma is that if you do have a horse with a registered pedigree ancestry you have to hang on to try and get registration issues sorted, as once it is passported with any other passport agency you cant have a second bite of the cherry and get the correct breed registration authority to issue a new one.
the passport is designed to be a once in a lifetime thing, but any dodgy dealer can get a new one!
What we all want is for our horse to be recognised for what it is, with the registration / passport proof that goes with it.
I sold a Welsh colt without his papers, but they were lodged with the relevant society which passed them over to the new owner as soon as he got him gelded. the 'cost' to register him to keep as a colt - which he was not going ot be - would have added significantly to the 'loss' made in selling him. The mare was in foal when bought for the children, but I still considered that a pedigree registered pony has a potential for a better future than one without, as owners can do more with them show wise.
The courts are the place to sort out unresolveable disputes between mare and stallion owners, the resulting foal deserves to be registered for what it is, and Defra has made provison for this in the passport regulations. |
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SallyEllis
Bronze Member
England
95 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 10:10:12 AM
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| Tut99 Do you actually know the breeder in question? I only ask this as both Bex and I both bought what we were told are registered colts and that both had passports when this is clearly not the case. I appreciate if you are just trying to put the other side of an argument across but this is not how your posts reads. |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 10:25:36 AM
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Undoubtedly, it is the breeders responsability to register the foal they have bred. When breeders are being chastised for producing more foals even when our intentions are good, the actions of the said lady and her stud proceedures reflect badly on us all.
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SallyEllis
Bronze Member
England
95 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 09:19:39 AM
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| Please can I take this opportunity to also put across that 2 colts were also transported let alone sold without passports which is a punishable offence, nobody seems to have taken that into consideration. I know that the movement of the colts hasnt harmed them in anyway but it does mean that my colt in particular cannot even leave my yard even if I wanted to take him to the vets should the need occur! |
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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 6:59:21 PM
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DIRECT COPY FROM DEFRA
EMAIL RESPONSE TO A THEORETICAL QUESTION, regarding failure to provide a covering certificate for registration to go ahead.
Tuesday 10th. March 2009
You are correct in your reading of the domestic legislation. If a party is deliberately withholding a document required for you to complete your foals identification without reasonable cause they are in contravention of Regulation 22 of the Horse Passports (England) Regulation 2004.
Our advice is that you contact your local trading standards office to take this forward ,as local authorities are required to enforce passport legislation in their area. |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 7:20:56 PM
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I have to say I don't know any of the parties involved in this saga - but apart from the registration/passport issues - am I right in thinking that the stallion and mares involved are on loan???
In which case doesn't the legal owner/s have some sort of responsibility as this appears to be an ongoing issue - are they aware of the problems their stallions paperwork (lack of)is causing? (Just re-read M Robson's post above - so the owner does know?)
I understood that all breeding loans/leases had to be registered with the AHS in which case there ought to be some redress as regards papers??
Surely if you lease/loan a horse you must undertake some responsibilty as to what happens to it during that time? |
Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
Edited by - Chris James on 11 Mar 2009 7:25:50 PM |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 8:17:33 PM
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| OK Chris it all seems quite straight forward and simple when you put it like that but what happens when you don't get your loaned mare back and the person who loaned it keeps on breeding without permission outside the loan agreement. Believe me, things aren't always so simple. The lease/loan situation can and often does turn into a minefield. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 8:26:11 PM
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some years back a woman had her mares at grass livery, TB and TB cross, yard owners welsh D stallion covered them, row followed, mare owner wanted yard owner to pay all expenses as she definately did not want foals.
Result, she refused to pay livery charges, he 'claimed' the mares in lieu of unpaid livery, and covered them again after foaling. legal owner not mentally strong enough to challenge this through the courts, was suffering other long term illness, so he got away with it.
There is often more to things than appears, he just told eveyone she was a bad debtor and abandoned them. |
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member
Australia
795 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 8:49:19 PM
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It does seem to make a bit of a mockery again of the passport system that foals can be sold and transported without said document. I myself bought my filly with no passport at 18 months and I am her third owner. The passport fortunately was being processed by the AHS but was stuck because of a dispute over the fact that her dam's owner was no longer an AHS member, but was on lease to the breeder who was.
Anyway fortunately after lots of phone calls and pushing, it was sorted, but I did have a panic once I realised that you could be prosecuted - don't know whether they would or not but I am typically that type of person that seems to get caught out if I step out of line!
I also was slighlty miffed at the prospect that I had paid for a registered Arab and she wasn't - however she is now, it is all water under the bridge and I am definitely much older and wiser. 
B |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 9:19:15 PM
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I had high hopes with the introduction of DNA testing that things could be simplified and these lack of correct registrations not happen.
It would appear that in some cases the lack of proper business arrangments by stallion owners is holding up processes, as DEFRA have stated it is an OFFENCE to with hold a document which delays registration / passporting.
The covering certificate is not a receipt, but a proof of paternity backed up by DNA.
Another matter, under DEFRA passport have to be issued / applied for before a foal is SIX MONTHS OLD or DECEMBER 31ST, whichever is the latter.
How then can the AHS ask for forms to be back by 30th September? DEFRA is the law of the land, the AHS is not it is merely a passport agency that can have its status revoked.
This is more pertinent now as the bigger a foal is before being subjected to microchipping the better.
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Bex
Gold Member
Wales
559 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 2:02:13 PM
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Some very good points have been raised in all this.
Sally- can I just say I really hope you get your situation sorted and thanks for speaking out about it! Keep us updated.
Becci. |
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Di Ellis
Silver Member
United Kingdom
415 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 1:45:05 PM
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Some time ago I sold a filly on a deposit and pay later agreement. I let the passport go with the filly as DEFRA required to enable her to travel to her new home.
The filly was never paid for and eventually I went and took her back however, the passport was witheld from me. Although the filly was still registered in my name and the passport was of no use to the person involved after months and months of trying to get it back I was told to go to the Trading Standards Department of our local Council. They were hopeless and had no idea that they were responsible for sorting the matter out. They did absolutely nothing for me; and eventually after the person involved said she had posted it to me - the AHS agreed to allow me to have a Duplicate on the basis that the document had been lost in the post.
However, the point is that you cannot rely on DEFRA or the Trading Standards Departments to sort out the messes they have created. I also think it is diabolical that a passport can be issued to dealers for a horse that may have been stolen and ends up at the market. I think it was just another way of the Government getting more money out of us as they cannot police it. When it first came out Horseboxes were being stopped by the Trading Standards Department on the highway to check that they had passports with the horses being transported; however, I do not see this nowadays and I wonder whether any members have been stopped when going to shows etc. to have their passports checked. |
D.S. Ellis
Somerset
marbonarabians@yahoo.co.uk |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 3:24:22 PM
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Yes, it's come to my attention on several occasions that you're right Di. The passport system is a complete farce - DEFRA doesn't want to know, Trading Standards aren't interested and you needn't even bother thinking about the police. Horses seem to be 'girls' things - cars would be different. Selling and travelling a horse without a passport is supposed to be a punishable offence but who enforces it even when there's blatent proof as in Sally's case? The criminals who know the score just laugh at us and suddenly, when we learn we were innocent, it's all too late: they know how the system works - and how to work it. It's surprising what some people will do for money. And the problem is that the intended micro-chipping system promises to turn out much the same - a complete sham.
I suppose it boils down to the fact that we all need to be extra diligent, particularly in these financially pressed times; no feeling sorry for someone despite how much you want a sale, unless you absolutely, absolutely know the the person involed - otherwise money on the nail and wait for the cheque to clear or the horse goes nowhere. There are well practiced scammers out there who know exactly how to be your friend until they've got what they want. Remember - it's a jungle out there! And very sadly, you sometimes learn to your financial and emotional cost that it can be a jungle in here as well!
As for letting your horse go out on loan you may think you're doing the right thing and being kind to the horse and the stranger who promises to be so genuine but your horse may be just be winging its way to the nearest abattoir and you might never see it again.
BEWARE! The are scammers are out there just waiting for their chance and sometimes they are nearer to home as, like you Bex and Sally I recently learned to my cost. ..... Rose Ennik |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 4:26:22 PM
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I do wonder when horseboxes were stopped for passport checks how the people doing the checking knew that the passport belonged to the horse on the lorry unless it was bay/black/chestnut with white markings. I really can't imagine that the checkers were "horsey" people and even if they were would you want to check 3 or 4 stallions in the confines of a lorry. The passport is so that your horse can safely be eaten as all drugs administered have to be recorded and you will know if it safe to eat al Adeed at dinnertime.
Barbara |
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SallyEllis
Bronze Member
England
95 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 9:03:39 PM
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| The injections I am talking about are the normal Tet & Flu vacs that most horses receive from a young age that would be noted in a passport which would be needed if you wanted to sell a horse. As it turns out that neither colts have passports despite it being affirmed by the seller of these colts that both had passports and innoculations it turns out that they really didnt. The colt I bought escaped and ran through a cows field and got entangled in barb wire suffering some quite nasty injuries and when I phoned the seller to find out about jabs she still told me he was covered and that she couldnt remember when boosters were due as the passport had been sent off for change of owner. All fabricated. She could have cost me my boy luckily my vet jabbed him again just in case! |
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Rui
AL Admin
6761 Posts |
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Bex
Gold Member
Wales
559 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 12:22:55 PM
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Thank you Paula and Rui for allowing this topic to remain on here.
I understand things got a little heated last night and certain comments had to be removed.
You have my word that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will there be any naming on my part.
Becci. |
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