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Bex
Gold Member
 Wales
559 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 8:11:56 PM
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Hi
I now feel a bit stronger and able to tell you this story.
Several months ago I felt I was about to fulfil a dream, a pure bred, registered Arabian colt foal to call my own! That dream was turned into a nightmare by an irresponsible breeder and I want to share the story in the hope that it may save someone else from a similar experience:-
I saw the foal advertised last summer and arranged a visit my Mum, my 22 month old son and myself set on our journey – lambs to the slaughter!
The foal was lovely but there were no registration papers, it was explained that the registration process was in progress and the papers would follow in due course. The lady involved appeared to be in poor health, as did her husband so it seemed churlish to press the matter. We duly agreed to buy the foal and a deposit was paid, he was to be delivered to us on weaning.
Prior to delivery the papers had still not arrived, I voiced my concerns and was told the AHS was notoriously slow, the papers were on the way and in the meantime she had been issued with a covering note from them enabling her to legally transport the horse without a passport. The foal was duly delivered – no records of inoculation, no covering note. The reason this time was a breakdown on the day before delivery and in the rush all documentation had been left in another vehicle and would be forwarded immediately – of course it never arrived. I made several phone calls, texted and e-mailed but the excuses came thick and fast illness,no access to a computer, no signal on the phone, inefficiency on the part of the AHS etc., etc.
I’m sure you are beginning to get the picture!
I eventually rang the AHS – WHY DIDN’T YOU DO IT BEFORE – I hear you cry! Surprise, surprise, they had no record whatsoever of the foal, no record of the mare even being covered, the mare in question was “on lease” to the breeder as were the other mares there at the time and, in fact the stallion…. Weeks of frustration followed and it became obvious that even if I did manage to get the foal registered it would be at my own expense. I could not afford that, nor could I afford to keep an unregistered foal that I could never show. All joy had now gone out of the ownership and the constant stress and uncertainty had now caused a recurrence of some health problems that I thought had long gone.
At this point a good friend came to my rescue she took the colt and is still trying to get him registered and ensure he gets the home he deserves. I have since found out that exactly the same thing has happened to another person involving the same breeder.
So please, please check any paper work before you buy, then go back and check it again! For not only are there disappointed buyers involved but perhaps more importantly horses are being sold under false pretences and consequently being moved on through no fault of their own.
An older and wiser Bex.
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 9:12:24 PM
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I don't know what to say.......you obviously realise your mistake now, but I am sure that a lot of people buy foals that arent at that moment registered. Some of mine arent done immediately, but ALWAYS have had them sent in before the foal leaves the premises. The AHS can sometimes be slow, but they do have a huge backlog when everyone sends their registrations in at the last possible moment! BUT, in saying that on the couple of occasions that no papers have arrived and foalie is off to his new home I have called them and they have gone above and beyond the call of duty to get them processed and sent to me. This couple really had no excuse, I am sure if they had called the AHS and asked for a 'rush through' it could have been done.
But its good of you to tell everyone your story and hopefully others will not be caught out. I find it so hard to believe that people can blatantly lie, but they can and they do. |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 9:32:57 PM
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Bex, i'm so glad you've told your story now you're feeling better. It must have been a really tough time for you.
Lets hope you can put it all behind you and get on with having fun with your lovely arabians.
I hope this breeder is shown up to be the lying toerag she really is.
Ros x |
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NPA Arabians
Moderator
United Kingdom
2980 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 9:35:56 PM
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Very often when horses have no registration papers - there is a "failed" financial transaction in the reconing somewhere - and either the covering certificate or the papers have been with-held awaiting payment!
I WOULD URGE ANYONE - IF IN DOUBT CHECK WITH WINDSOR HOUSE!
And remember - a passport isn't enough - you need the signed transfer form (& Ideally the papers should be in the name of the person you are buying off!)
I know at the moment of 3 horses being offered for sale,(not on here btw!) - none of which have the "right" paperwork for one reason or another - but none of the adverts say "unregistered" (or previous owner waiting for final payment! - or Stallion owner never paid stud fee - or whatever!)
Definately - buyer beware!
- because as you say without the paperwork - you are struggling!
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Jayne Armstrong - NPA Arabians
:-) :-) :-) :-) |
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SallyEllis
Bronze Member
England
95 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 9:56:48 PM
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| I just have to say that I too unwittingly bought a colt off of this breeder and she is still doing the same thing to other people I really do hope others sit up and take notice of this and all of the pain and distress that this lady is causing to the people she snares in her web of deceipt. |
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NPA Arabians
Moderator
United Kingdom
2980 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:01:28 PM
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Crimes - didn't reallise you were all talking about the same person! 
Please just remember thou - no naming and shaming on here! - sorry  |
Jayne Armstrong - NPA Arabians
:-) :-) :-) :-) |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 10:08:23 PM
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there are a great many unregistered arabs, and those that are and paperwork has been lost by someone who did not value it.
The AHS itself must take some responsibility for it, my foundation mare had a pure Crabbet filly that her previous owner failed to register due to the cost, a newcomer, he did now know he had to be a member, or that there were deadlines, or that the charge had quadrupled by a certain late date and a requirement of blood testing arose.
all in all, half the then commercial value of the said filly, who would sell as a riding horse for the same money registered or not.
I know of coverings by unlicensed stallions, hence no covering certificate available.
bickering between stallion owners / mare owners should not even come into it, the covering certificate is a proof of service not a receipt for payment. |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 07:10:00 AM
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Hi
So sorry for you unfortunate experince but surely by not being allowed to name this person you are giving licence to them to keep selling these foals without paperwork, I bet they love all talking and nobody allowed to say who it is...no wonder they get away with ROBBERY!!!
Beryl |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 08:34:57 AM
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Pat
Why should a stallion owner give a covering crtificate to the mare owner if the service has not been paid for? When you use a stallion you have more than a year to pay for it before the foal needs to be registered so even if you run into financial difficulties there is no excuse for not trying to arrange to pay in instalments for the covering. I am not saying that you should leave it a year to pay!!! Just that if something unforseen happens you can ask the stallion owner if you can pay over time.
I sent 3 mares to a very expensive stallion but had arranged before I sent them to pay in instalments as I didn't have the money to pay for them all at once. If the stallion owner had not agreed to terms then I would only have sent one mare. We had nothing in writing, he trusted me and I paid as agreed. Sadly one of the mares reabsorbed and the stallion returned to his owner in the States so I lost a stud fee but that's breeding for you. We had an agreement and my mare got in foal so the stallion had fulfilled his part of the bargain!
I am really sorry to hear of your problem, Bex. Would the stallion owner not let you have a covering certificate for a small fee and you could then try and get a transfer of ownership form signed by the breeder and register the foal? I relise it would cost several hundred £s but would solve the problem. I have sold a foal while waiting for her registration papers (she was almost a yearling) and there was no problem. I had kept copies of the paperwork sent to the AHS (and I know they were having problems at the time) so I was able to show copies to the new owner.
Barbara |
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M Robson
Silver Member
Wales
398 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 08:44:47 AM
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| Well done Bec, your very brave and i admire you. Little man is being registerd now, but it has been a battle. Lets hope the story might help others in the future. He has found a great home, we had two ladies in mind to own him, one unfortunately has problems with a sick child so could not help, the other fell in love with him at first sight and he is on his way in the next few days to their yard. She is signing up to the site shortly and will posting pics of him. He really is a star and quite frankly does not deserve her name on his papers. |
www.marley-arabians.co.uk |
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SallyEllis
Bronze Member
England
95 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 09:26:49 AM
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| The problem with this breeder is not in that the stallion owner will not send a covering certificate as the breeder has both the mares and stallion on loan/lease! The problem is she has no intention of sending the correct paperwork or paying for it to the AHS as both Bex and I have found out to our cost. I agree it is a pain not being able to name and shame but the law would stand in favour of the other person if anything defamatory was deemed to be said and AL could be sued and believe me this person is not afraid of doing that. |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 09:31:11 AM
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I feel so sorry for you................but I also feel so sorry for these foals, and I agree the breeder should be named and shamed does she not care for the future of these foals? |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 09:47:58 AM
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I still have a covering certificate in the drawer somewhere for a mare called Sheira who was sent Assad in 2002 I think. Apparantly the owner did not wish to pay for stud fee or keep !! So I presume there is a colt/gelding out there obviously unregistered.
Bex - I'm very sorry for all your problems you were so excited when you got the colt.......doesn't take Miss Marple to work out who the breeder is !! Sadly with the registration costs so high for breeders and the cost of DNA falling on them now, I feel there will be many cases of unregistered stock like yours. It was not long ago it cost £28 to register and now we are looking at £80 ??? Crazy !!! |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 10:10:30 AM
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Hi
Next question WHY? if the registration etc is so expensive why do people still breed with this knowledge, when I bought a foal (a long time ago) the breeder had his registration put in my name so as to save money...if you take deposits on foals then surely not a problem to deduct this if people back out...are foals so cheap now that all the paperwork is not viable...if so again why are people breeding?
Beryl |
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 10:24:51 AM
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That's really good news M Robson; it sounds like you've really put yourself out to help Bex and this youngster.
Hope you're feeling better Bex and thank you for highlighting this, I am totally unaware of who this breeder is - but shall always be on gaurd after your cautionary tale.
It's so easy to trust people, particularly elderly folk playing on ill-heath, what a nasty kick in the teeth. We live and learn. |
   
Louise, Warwickshire |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 10:43:00 AM
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| It does save money to put the foal straight into the purchasers name as it saves the £32 transfer fee. I wonder myself, Beryl, why so many still breed. With three due this year, once vet has done markings, they'll cost £350 ish in registratins alone......before they are fed, wormed, farrier, rugs & vaccinations. Then there's the expense of stud fees, vets bills for breeding & insemination, cost of shipping semen, all the Rescue Remedy to keep me calm !! Crikey they'd better be nice, and I'm planning on keeping them all if female !! Oh all that extra poo !!!! |
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Bex
Gold Member
Wales
559 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 10:44:30 AM
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Hi Everyone
Thanks so much for your comments and support. Quite honestly it’s made me feel better getting it down on paper. I don’t want to go on at length but I would just like to make it clear that I personally have had nothing but cooperation and sympathy from the AHS.
I also feel that there should be some sort of code of good practice and monitoring, involving horses out on lease for breeding purposes.
I will now stop “rabbiting on” and look forward to the Spring and Summer shows where, with any luck I may meet some of you personally.
Thanks again, and a special thanks to Kye who went out of her way to help me and the colt.
Becci. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 11:40:48 AM
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Actually, I was thinking of you, Delyth, when I said that the stallion owner was perfectly entitled to withold the covering certificate if the stud fee wasn't paid. I remembered your telling me that Assad's stud fee hadn't been paid. Why on earth send a mare to stud if you care so little for the resulting foal that you won't pay the stud fee. I couldn't wait to have my Assad foal; she is still here and will be six next month.
I am really pleased that your colt has now had his papers sorted, Bex, and wish you and him well in the future.
Please don't let one bad experience put you off, most of us have had them at some time but there are some really lovely people in the Arab world as well as the not so nice ones.
Barbara |
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SarahA
Silver Member
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 11:44:34 AM
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Hi
Re: cost of registration.
Problems do happen with registration, l lost my job in September and have only managed to get a part time position since, hence money is very very tight.
However all this said i did check on the cost of registration, and as you say approx £80, however what the AHS didnt explain to me in detail was.
1. I would have to register Amber as a brood mare (cost not known, and WHY)
2. I would have to have Amber and Foal DNA Tested (Cost not known guessing approx £60)
3. I would have to have my vet complete the marks (£approx £130.00 inc call out and paperwork, and WHY the vet)
4. I would have to be a member of the AHS (guessing around £40.00)
5. Actual registration which is currently around £130.00
So the £80.00 is actually nearer £400.00........ which to be honest i dont have and the electricity and gas bill have to come first, along with the livery, feed, hay, straw, mortgage etc.
What i dont understand is, why do i need to be a member, if i register a Welsh or a British Warmblood etc etc, I dont need to be part of the society, surely the fact that people are breeding Arabians should be enough for a breed society. Why does Amber need to be registered as a brood mare, surely all mares have the potential for breeding, and the fact that she has a DNA result for a foal surely proves she has bred?? as far as i am aware no other breed organisation asks for you to pay to register a mare as a breeding mare? although I might be wrong about this. Wetherby's for eg: might ask for this?
Anyway the upshot is that i cannot register the foal, despite wanting to desperately and despite wanting to get her out showing, i cant, because the AHS's fee's are way way way above the normal.
Sorry winge over, but i think it stinks.
Sarah |
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SarahA
Silver Member
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 11:48:33 AM
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| P.S. sorry i was meant to say, sorry you met such a horrible person, and sorry they were thieving, sneaky, lying scumbags.... |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 11:52:51 AM
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Agree that the AHS fees are now astronomical.
I bred a foal in 1999, & had my mare blood-typed, entered as brood mare etc, then quite shocked when we bred the next foal from her in 2007 that she had to be DNA'd as well?
My guess is that alot of future foals will be unregistered, as in the case of poor Bex, or unscrupulous breeders passing the costs on to the purchaser if possible?
One positive out of the high costs though, is that maybe less foals will be bred?
Good on you Bex for highlighting this.
Lisa |
     
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 2:30:17 PM
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VOTE
If enough people are unhappy - OMG would that be everyone who breeds? - then if someone tabled a resolution at the AGM for registration proceedures to be overhauled, and it past on a majoity vote, they would have to do something about it.
If they can't manage their finances without ripping off both the ordinary member and the larger studs, then quite frankly they need to be wound up and a new efficient and cost effective organisation take over.
Off soap box for now. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 7:44:29 PM
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| I said this in a thread last year. That every year one of my foals is sold to cover the registration fees of them all. I am actually sick and tired of 'giving away' one foal! Now with microchipping as well its ridiculous. |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 08:49:01 AM
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With microchipping that I think is a new change with defra, but there is no legal requirement for the AHS to have made us use vets for markings up till they are there for the microchips from june this year.
If its hard enough for Arab breeders to pay for this process, how many problems will there be in future for the unregistered pony breeds where foals are selling below £100, many will be neglected to death I suspect. |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 09:25:07 AM
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| Becci, I'm so sorry to hear of this. Will PM you. |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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