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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 11:37:30 AM
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this is not in referance to the thread about the welsh cob stallion. that situation is just wierd/awful. BUT I would like to open up a discussion about PTS.
I've noticed that the charities are inundated with requests for them to take on unwanted horses. No charity has unlimited facicilies or staff and they are unable to take every animal that no-one wants.
They are advising people with ideas to keep costs low and also if the person has an older horse ie over 15 yrs old to have it PTS at home.This is NOT cruel.
Sending a horse which has given years of service to people to a market to a very uncertain future is unacceptable IMO. it may well find itself on a meat waggon undertaking a long journey to slaughter.See the WHW [ILPH] website for info about transport to slaughter.
IMO too many people are not adult enough to face up to reality, there are not enough good homes and too many horses; nor to the costs involved in putting to sleep. it can cost around £500 for vet and disposal. So, many an old friend is being got rid of via the meat man.
This is an appeal for those with older or injured or chronically ill euines. If you cannot keep it, and keep it well, it is a kindness to end its days at home in familiar surroundings.
Just my thoughts.
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dinkidoo
Gold Member
United Kingdom
652 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 11:50:15 AM
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I can see your point however if i was to ask one of my horses do you want to take a risk or die im sure i know what they would say! I think if people are absolutely vigilant with the way they rehome them it can work. I know there are horror stories, but then there are in every walk of life. There are also happy endings. We have rehomed 4 horses (we tend to keep ours until they die of old age) and know where they all are (some have crossed rainbow bridge at the time that was right for them) One of which is now 21 and the pride and joy of the local riding school that my mum has been taking the school kids to. He has a select few riders and the best stable on the yard. Everyone is cutting back, to be honest we have 4 and it cripples us but horses are our lives and they always come first even if we are on beans on toast. I think even if horses are well rugged and turned out with hay/small feeds whilst people sort themselves out it is better than being pts. My mare is 17 and there is no way i would consider having her pts, she is still as full as life as ever.
I think the credit crunch is going to hit people hard (believe me i know first hand how hard it is but don't want to discuss our business on an open forum) but people need to take stock sensibly without rushing into things.
I understand about the chronically ill part but then i would have thought that being pts if they were suffering and didn't have a good outcome that being pts would have been the only option even without the hard times.
Just my thoughts too, sometimes wary of posting things on here as i know people have very strong views and tend to jump on other peoples thoughts but just how i feel. |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 11:53:27 AM
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Whilst I appreciate what you are saying, at the end of the day it all boils down to priorities.
There are always going to be the people that would opt to have their horse re-homed/sold etc rather than make a personal sacrifice.
We see this day in/day out. Horses pass hands on a regular basis. The horse is a "commodity". Once it's purpose has been served, it gets sold on.
There will always be a divide between horseowners. The ones above will have no qualms about selling their horse or sending it to a sale. As long as they get their money, then THAT is their priority.
This type of person is unlikely to listen to the likes of us. They don't have the compassion.
Those that don't see their horse as a commodity will make the sacrifices and will avoid re-homing, selling and most importantly putting them to sleep - at all costs.
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 12:27:09 PM
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| Depends on the individual horse and situation or course but I would certainly rather have a horse pts if it was in it's twenties in the comfort of it's own home rather than risk selling it on to an uncertain fate. |
      
Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
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NatH
Platinum Member
England
2695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 1:06:03 PM
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I think this has to be a choice of the individual and despite what 'we' think there isn't a wrong or right.
For me, however, I would rather try and give my horse/s away to a suitable person before I PTS but rather than them having an uncertain future I think I would opt for PTS - it's very difficult to say unless you are in that position. |
Natalie
Chapel Lane Arabians
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 6:08:40 PM
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I'd definately rather put to sleep then let my horse face an uncertain future.
I think its our duty to make the hard decisions not leave them for someone else to make  |
   
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 6:15:25 PM
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Geegee has summed it up as far as I am concerned.
Quote: Those that don't see their horse as a commodity will make the sacrifices and will avoid re-homing, selling and most importantly putting them to sleep - at all costs. |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 6:25:20 PM
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I agree completely Bruka is juat like the gas bill - just something that gets paid no matter what....
BUT if the poo really hit the fan theres just no way I would EVER consider selling or even GIVING away a 16yr old cushioniod arthritic horse that needs a high level of care and is on medication for the rest of his life...
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night not knowing that he was 100% ok and if he wasn't with me then I couldn't guarentee that.
I've had him since he was a baby and he'll be with me until the end..
Sometimes euthenasia is just the more responsible thing to do, I think people give horse away ( especially the older ones!) so they don't have to face up to that responsibility as it's the hardest decision to make... |
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 8:12:46 PM
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While I appreciate that the animal charities can do a worthwhile job, I think there are issues when they take in - as some have - 'herds' of healthy 'rescue' ponies includling in-foal mares and youngstock. The moral high ground that they take in keeping them for the rest of their natural lives effectively bed-blocks the resources that could be used to help a much wider range of needy horses.
With the charitable donations and staff they have, resources would be better spent on a well policed re-homing loan program. This would enable far more horses to be given the short term help they require, and many more people access to the feeling of horse ownership under responsible supervision.
They are also, in my book, guilty of spending disproprtionate amounts on keeping the very elderly and incurable sick alive, when their time has come to pass away naturally or by humane euthanasia.
It is falling more and more onto the individual with a concience to help where real need is discovered. A healthy horse deserves the chance of continued survival, many of these are pts by owners who cannot let go of the idea that anyone else can give it a good home, while the sick and crippled end up buted and through the auctions, often many times as successive buyers realise the problems.
Its a mixed up world. |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 8:19:11 PM
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So true Pat ww There is a charity near to me that just buys them up at auction, mainly shetlands and then they just sit in a field!  I really don't see the point, They are mostly perfectly healthy horses that could be easily rehomed but are 'rescued'and then left sitting in a field for literally years and years. its a waste and then they are constantly in need of money to support the charity which could be easily helped by an active rehoning program 
As it is, if someone turns up and wants one then they're loned out and if no one comes then on one comes !
Odd... |
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
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Baikala
Gold Member
571 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 8:36:53 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixbrukaI'd definately rather put to sleep then let my horse face an uncertain future. I think its our duty to make the hard decisions not leave them for someone else to make
So do I, and I did.
In my opinion, a horse DOES NOT know it is going to be put to sleep, they just don't think like that. Especially if it is done at home.
All that horse thinks is, "Oh,polos/oats/carrots, yum" that is all. Great way to go.
It is us, as carers, that suffer, but I would rather suffer the 'if onlys and buts" for a lifetime than not be able to guarantee their health, welfare and dignity.
I feel incredibly strongly about this, I think people p u s s y foot around too much, grow some cojones and do your duty to your horse rather than shuffle the responsibility on to someone else. (People in general, and not anyone in particular, please note)
Better a day too early than a week too late, that applies to ALL animals in our care. |
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Edited by - Baikala on 04 Nov 2008 8:46:33 PM |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 8:49:41 PM
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I think people p u s s y foot around too much, grow some cojones and do your duty to your horse rather than shuffle the responsibility on to someone else
LOL Bikala, succinct and too the point  |
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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crinks
Gold Member
England
650 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 9:03:40 PM
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Pat I totally agree with you on this one.
Near to me ther is a sanctuary, with the proirity on rescued horses and ponies. All very well and worth while BUT and its a big but they will NOT rehome any of their rescues. This charity is now in dire need of funds and extra stabling because of its stance on the rehoming issue. They have been asked nicely, they have been pleaded with but it makes no difference they will not let any of them go at all.
There are young horses and ponies up there capable and willing and fit enough to be rehomed to carefuly vetted and selected homes and to do SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE with the rest of their lives, but this falls on deaf ears.
They have 2 wonderful young Shire horse stallions, full brothers and they NEED work, not to just stand around in a field or a stable all day which is what they are doing now. The local brewery has offered thousands for these two, with the guarantee they will be treated well and taken care of and join the other shires they have, and at the end of their working days will be retired to a lovely farm with the best of care till the end of their days, this could bring in some much needed funding but still no.
Another one is a beautiful little spotted stallion, new to the gene pool and would be snapped up the the spotted society as he has never been bred from, again thousands have been offered, guarantees given but again no.
They also have some very old and chronically sick and old ponirs and horses up here that it would be a far kinder service to PTS than to keep them through another winter uncertain as they are of being able to carry on.
One elderly Arab mare up there has such a badly deformed spine I went off my rocker and went ballistic at the sanctuary manager for keeping her alive, it truly would be a kindness to this lady to have her PTS and release her from the pain she is in, her spine resembles a camels hump and her breathing is shot at, you can hear her make the effort to breathe.............. the response to my query was 'she makes us a lot of money and people feel sorry for her thats why we keep her'. I was so angry I had to walk away from there, we sat in the car on the car park crying our eyes out and I'm as battle hardened as anyone when it comes to animals suffering having seen a few sights I never wish to see again.
Whilst I do applaud in some ways their desire to rescue neglected and ill treated horses I also want them to realise that some times they have to let some of the older and more ill ones go gently than condemn them to suffering all for the sake of folks feeling sorry for them and using them to raise funds.
PS
This place is at the moment under threat by the local council of being forcibly closed if they do not comply with a rehoming programme and let the vets get in there to give som emuch needed attention to the horses.
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 9:28:34 PM
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| I am so glad I am not alone in my thinking of the rescue charities. Our local one is quite selective, ponies that are rideable taken in as they raise money by doing pony rides at fetes and events, yet an elderly but sound and healthy mare turned down as she wasn't going to be rideable. They also take in high profile extreme cases that get them good publicity, and often end up dying, so no drain on resources there then. I am too cynical. |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
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crinks
Gold Member
England
650 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:25:15 AM
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Phoenix the local council have given them a month to come up with a rehoming strategy and to get some knowledgable fund raisers on board, at present the place is run by well meaning amateurs, good kind souls for the most part but clueless as to what has to be done and no idea of how to start. Many people have been put off from helping as they do 'not fit the profile of people we need, we don't want people who know too much about horses as they have set ideas about what they want and not what is best for the residents here'
well sorry but when those residents are shut into old pig pens that have been pressed into service as stables, and the kids who help out run about the place banging doors and shouting at the horses then I do get angry and I do want them shutting down UNLESS they change their policies, aand get someone in there who knows jsut what needs doing and how to get it done. All the other horse rescue charities have offered help whether it be practical or staff help but they get rebuffed at every turn.
The other arguement I have with them is the fact they are bleating about not having enough land and that the landlord is trying to turn them off the land they rent. That is such a wrong story. the land was gifted to them years ago, I know the man who made that gift, he gave them 150 acres, something not to be sneezed at in anyones book and then rented them (at a cost of £25 per year) another 50 acres and this is how they repay such a generous gesture by making him out to be the bad guy, he hasn't even seen the rent for the extra land for the past 4 years!
So we will wait and watch with interest to see what happens next
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:37:42 AM
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just to add to Mum's post, I have offered to help in rebreaking those who are fit to be,and helping in getting a vet in to PTS those who it will be a kindness (including the poor arab mare who looks like a camel, and the pony with sprained tendons and a foal!!)
Emma xx |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 08:24:20 AM
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The problem is, as in the welsh cob thread, that what is portrayed as dire straights is often anything but (unless you consider losing money dire straights, which i personally don't, but i do feel losing a young, happy, healthy stallion is!). Yes,there are some people who over this winter and possibly for several years to come will find it really tough to keep their horses. There will be some who will have the choice whether they put food in their children's mouths or feed their horse. If faced with a situation like this, i can't say i wouldn't choose my children. This all sound inflammatory, but some people will have to make this decision. No matter how many times i tell myself i'd be happy to live in a caravan in a field if i needed to, i'm not sure my children and husband would feel the same way. If it came to it, and i couldn't find the perfect LOAN home for an older horse, i would have them pts without a doubt.
When we went to get one of our 2 rescue dogs from a centre, they had a no pts policy. There were dogs in the kennels that had been there for 10 years! This noisy, stressful environment with the dog not rehomed because of it's fear issues relating to people. Ok they let them out, took them for walks, let them into the staff room with people they knew. But for the rest of the time they're just in their kennel. Then i went to another (very well known rehoming centre in London) as part of research for a dissertation about stereotypies in kenneled dogs. I went into the main block where they took meticulous care over the rehabilitation of the individual. i then went to the block where they kept the dogs that were to be assessed and then possibly pts that day. These dogs were mostly aggressive dogs. Despite it being a sad experience, i honestly came away feeling that i felt more comfortable with what they did than at the previous place. Every single dog in the main block had a great chance of being rehomed, and their turnover is high allowing for another dog to be taken in afterwards. I'm not talking about cherry picking rescue cases (as sadly some rescue centres do!) i just mean being realistic and making a decision based on the welfare of the dog, and other dogs after it. A life time of misery, pain, fear and stress for any animal is worse than a swift death with no knowledge of it's arrival.
I have been a vet nurse for 14 years, and currently work in an emergency clinic. We see animals come in to be pts in many stages of illness or health. I have dissuaded people in the past from having dogs put to sleep and asked them to sign them over for rehoming, if the dog is healthy, non agressive and young enough to take the transition and kenneling. The vet has done the same. I have also assisted in putting unwell animals to sleep who i felt weren't ready to go, but accepted that it was the owners decision and they knew their animals best and how much they could cope with practically, mentally and physically. What i always find most distressing is when an animal comes in on the brink of death. Often months, sometimes years of pain and suffering have precluded this, and it all could have been prevented by the owners being realistic and unselfish. But then, i'm not there to judge. I can't sit back and watch a healthy, well balanced animal be pts which is why i step in and inform the owners of alternatives. There have been times when they have still, despite offering them alternatives, wanted the animal pts. It's out of my hands then and up to the vet. Most of the vets i've worked with refuse to do it. however, you then have to weigh up the possibilities of the animal becoming neglected, dumped or worse. Sometimes it IS better in the animals interest to be pts. You can then guarrentee (sorry my spelling is appalling!) that the animal will not suffer. After all, that's what we're there for to prevent or stop pain and suffering. Sometimes, sadly, humans are part of that pain and suffering.
Anyway, i've rambled on for long enough. The upshot is, that yes, there are times when PTS is the best option for a healthy animal . We don't live in an ideal world.
Ros |
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angelarab
Platinum Member
Wales
2876 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 08:33:41 AM
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| I know the place crinks and Madmare are talking about, i helped out there for two days, i couldn't face any more,(i am talking 8 years ago)i could not get my head round how so many equines were just doing nothing that were so capable of enjoying a life outside, I am very much a rehabilitate, rehome, and tlc person. This place was not doing this in keeping 4 shetlands in a 10*10 box all winter! So sad i hope they get things pro-active but i doubt they will |
 "Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened."
www.northwalesarab.co.uk |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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NUTTER
Platinum Member
England
2452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 08:53:00 AM
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In my eyes after what i have witnessed it is kinder in my eyes to have a very old pony PTS then fingers crossed moving onto a new home..
I know of 2 at the moment that it most def would have been kinder for them to be PTS then in the situation they are in right now and there is nothing anybody can do about it..
As the owner thinks they are happy and content !!
It breaks my heart...
Also i have come across those time again and again that say they will give this and that animal a home for life !! (they dont)
I have 2 arabs and 1 cob that is a friends with me..
The youngest being a yearling these animals are with me my family for life that means now i am responsible for them well into my late 70s!!!
This was a big major factor that i looked into when buying our yearling at the beginning of the year,
As i took into consideration that even if i could not care for MY animals at a later date...
Then my husband and i could afford to pay a family member or a outsider to care for them if one of us should become ill etc or worse scanario pass on..
Maybe i am a little negative for some but far to many people dont look far enough forward into the future.. |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 09:59:02 AM
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What a highly emotive subject. PTS is by far the best option rather than just rehoming an old horse. Lets be honest here, with the current economic crisis there will be fewer homes for these poor horses to go to. I have an old mare I have owned since she was a yearling, she is very arthritic and unsound but still at present enjoys life, I have indeed paid thousands of pounds out in the past 4 years prolonging her life (vets bills), even now the vets have told me it would be kinder to pts than keep filling her with drugs. As animal owners we have a responsibility to look after our charges,if we lose our homes, jobs, and times becoming very hard, and if are animals are sick, unsound or just very old, then we owe it to them to have them pts, not pass them onto someone else.
Dont bury your heads in the sand and hope it all goes away. Most of the rescue centres around my area are fit to bursting point, they don't want to take on anymore unwanted animals. At the end of the day, even the sanctuarys have to make the decision to pts their charges. Don't leave it to others to make the decision for you.
Nicky
p.s. totally agree with you Baikala |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 10:49:08 AM
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angel..it's just got worse since. Next time you are up...come up and we'll go there...it hasn't changed at all. And you can come down and meet Crystal and Tasey this time!
Emma xx |
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dinkidoo
Gold Member
United Kingdom
652 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 9:54:12 PM
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| Emma where is this place, think we may have been. PM me if you don't want to name it on here. The camel thing is ringing a big bell now, mum and me thought it was a trick of the light and tried to turn the car back to look but was too narrow. We went for a fundraising day as had nothing on, its pretty bleak out there but didn't realise it was that bad. We did wonder why they were keeping 3 entire shetland stallions though. |
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