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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 6:18:22 PM
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Hi, does anyone have or know of any living Courthouse bred Arabs, especially pure Courthouse or of Courthouse / Old English lines? They seem to be extremely rare?
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 9:08:41 PM
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Al Waha Arabian Stud have the very beautiful chestnut stallion Spearmint (1982) by Shammar (Champurrado x Soma II) x Sappho (Blenheim x Selima)
If you check our website you will see pics of our mare Raqisa by Sorbus (St Simon x Volante) x Raqqasa by Ragos (Argos x Rabiha by Rheoboam) x Calexa by Champurrado x Alexa) |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
Edited by - Jingo on 03 Sep 2007 9:12:53 PM |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 9:55:29 PM
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We have Augusta who is 50% Courthouse through her sire Rheingolde, she is out of Fairy Ring who combines old english with a touch of Polish through Argos. I have asked Judith to post some photos of her.
I am also a Spearmint fan.
Mandy |
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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Indalo
Silver Member
United Kingdom
298 Posts |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 1:06:13 PM
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Hi,
My mare is Safi Amira, she is Polish/Courthouse Bloodlines
Bur Zehri x Somrah
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/safi+amira
She is the Liver Chestnut mare on the right in my signature, the other two photos are of her two daughters |
Angel
Passion Arabians
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Edited by - angel2002 on 05 Sep 2007 1:33:08 PM |
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Miska
Gold Member
United Kingdom
627 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 2:22:46 PM
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How do you know if a horse has courthouse bloodlines? Several years ago someone told me Miska had courthouse bloodlines (along with crabbet), but i don't know who it is in her pedigree (if they were correct in what they said). Can someone tell me?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ashuer+miska
Thanks |
RIP Ettie 2003 - 2010 |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 3:28:55 PM
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Hi, thanks for your replies, I have noticed that there are allot of Courthouse x Polish arabs about but hardly any Courthouse / Old English arabs. So Miska is a rarity! Are you planning to breed from her?
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Miska
Gold Member
United Kingdom
627 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 11:34:30 AM
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Thanks - i have often had people ask if I would breed from her and I would love to. Unfortuantly Miska is 22 now and has never had a foal :( - so i can't really breed from her now. If i had known about her breeding when i first got her I would have bred her.
- just because i like showing her off :D |
RIP Ettie 2003 - 2010 |
Edited by - Miska on 05 Sep 2007 2:19:46 PM |
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webcaf
Bronze Member
Wales
81 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 1:06:42 PM
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Tomos's 50% courthouse mare Augusta who is beautiful, and has had a very gorgoeus filly this year, Ellie who's sire is Imad.
Hope you don't mind me posting these Mandy xx |
its all about karma |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 4:58:22 PM
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| Well Miska and Augusta are both lovely and Miska does seem to show that old fashioned Courthouse influence to me - I have always thought the Courthouse horses stayed very true to an older Blunt type of Crabbet while it was Lady Wentworth who changed the sort of Arabian she bred in comparision to her parents. As for Augusta, she looks incredibly like her Courthouse sire in these snaps. And what a lovely filly! It really is a rare line and type these days and I do hope we all live to see this filly breeding lovely foals too. Alexia |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 6:49:04 PM
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| Hi lovely picture of Augusta & filly! Lovely picture of Miska as well, she is a lovely Courthouse type mare (I do love chestnut mares!!!). Do you know who bred Miska & if she had any siblings? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 7:17:09 PM
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Hi Alexia,
I agree with you regarding the "Blunt" look of the Courthouse lines, one thing that I have always found quite fascinating is that Lady Wentworth maintained a small nucleus of "Blunt" horses right up until the mid to late 1950's. I think that all but one of these horses was exported prior to Lady Wentworth's death, the blood of the mare who remained in the UK, Extra Special was later used by the Archer's, Hedley's and Bretherton's amongst others. Sadly whilst the legacy of the Blunts lives on today, there are no longer any "pure" Blunt horses 
Mike |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 7:51:57 PM
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Mandy is standing by me as I type this ( ) - I hope you will all agree that Augusta is the most amazing mare - ouch - got to say that as she is kicking me But folks - look at Augusta & smile - isn't she just GREAT?!!!!
Judith & Mandy XXXXXXXXXXXX |
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webcaf
Bronze Member
Wales
81 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 8:05:52 PM
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I hope Mandy doesn't kick me next time we meet, for posting the other pictures of Augusta & Ellie |
its all about karma |
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Miska
Gold Member
United Kingdom
627 Posts |
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Jenni5
Gold Member
England
849 Posts |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 10:19:11 AM
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I've sobered up now, that Judith is a very bad influence !
Jenni, I had a quick look at your horses pedigrees and nothing sprang out as being Courthouse, though Alexia will be able to tell you much more than me.
Miska its a shame that your mare is now too old to breed from she looks lovely.
Liz, how could I possibly be upset about the the photos, you have really captured Augusta and Elegancia.
And Alexia, Elegancia will stay with us, shes far too precious to sell, she will be backed and ridden and then bred from, any ideas on possible future husbands ?
Augusta is over 80% Crabbet/Old English, so Elegancia with Imads imput will be over 90% Crabbet/Old English, I was contemplating using Spearmint on Augusta to up the Courthouse % but I like this foal very much, she has exceptional movement, and I will be sending Augusta back to Imad, all being well, as age is not on their sides.
If Jane has frozen semen from Spearmint I may invest in some both for Augusta (though we will be very blessed, if we can have 2 more foals from Augusta, before she retires as she is now 18)and Elegancia in the future,
Mandy |
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 1:26:24 PM
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Originally posted by MikeHi Alexia, I agree with you regarding the "Blunt" look of the Courthouse lines, one thing that I have always found quite fascinating is that Lady Wentworth maintained a small nucleus of "Blunt" horses right up until the mid to late 1950's. I think that all but one of these horses was exported prior to Lady Wentworth's death, the blood of the mare who remained in the UK, Extra Special was later used by the Archer's, Hedley's and Bretherton's amongst others. Sadly whilst the legacy of the Blunts lives on today, there are no longer any "pure" Blunt horses Mike Oran was "all Blunt" - he did not go to America He was an utterly remarkable horse; not many stallions (of any breed) can boast of being sire/grandsire to exceptional performance horses on 4 continents! Keren |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 12:17:54 AM
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Originally posted by MikeHi Alexia, I agree with you regarding the "Blunt" look of the Courthouse lines, one thing that I have always found quite fascinating is that Lady Wentworth maintained a small nucleus of "Blunt" horses right up until the mid to late 1950's. I think that all but one of these horses was exported prior to Lady Wentworth's death, the blood of the mare who remained in the UK, Extra Special was later used by the Archer's, Hedley's and Bretherton's amongst others. Sadly whilst the legacy of the Blunts lives on today, there are no longer any "pure" Blunt horses Mike
Hi Mike, well there are the Doyle horses which are technically 100% Blunt but, like Babson Egyptians, they are such a small and closely interelated little group as to really have become something apart.
I find it interesting that people so often focus on the extra bloodlines Lady W added, the implication being that is why the Crabbet Arabian did change /evolve in her time but really her choices emphasized lines and traits that came from the original Blunt gene pool but to a greater extreme.
IMHO Extra Special is something of a good example as, like most of Lady W's latter day 100% Blunt breedings (and many others), she represented the combining of multiple lines to Rasim and Rijm, often via Nureddin/Sharima and Oran. These are all Blunt lines of course, just not the ones the Blunts themselves used most prolifically and not those we think of when we describe an Arabian as "Blunt" in type. I am well aware I am simplyfying and generalising dreadfully here (one could fill an article if not a book on the subject!![g])- the Blunts maintained a huge range of lines and types that got squeezed to a much narrower bottleneck during their daughter's reign, partly by choice but also by the sheer necessity of having to control numbers.
I do think "Blunt" types as opposed to Wentworth ones tend to mean the types Lady W let slide - the Ahmar /Berk lines are one such branch and I do think it is the multiple lines to Ahmar via Berk and Sainfoin /Safarjal that are responsible for that early Blunt cast to many Courthouse descended lines. This was reinforced later by the Rissla grandson Champurrado of course. Have I bored everyone yet?!
Of course Crabbet is not the only contributor to Courthouse. Clarke also used desert bred stallions with the lovely grey Fedaan being particularly important - the glorious Shammar owed his grey colour and much of his structure to Fedaan. I'll stop now!! Alexia |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 12:23:46 AM
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| Originally posted by Tomos
I've sobered up now, that Judith is a very bad influence !
And Alexia, Elegancia will stay with us, shes far too precious to sell, she will be backed and ridden and then bred from, any ideas on possible future husbands ?
Augusta is over 80% Crabbet/Old English, so Elegancia with Imads imput will be over 90% Crabbet/Old English, I was contemplating using Spearmint on Augusta to up the Courthouse % but I like this foal very much, she has exceptional movement, and I will be sending Augusta back to Imad, all being well, as age is not on their sides.
If Jane has frozen semen from Spearmint I may invest in some both for Augusta (though we will be very blessed, if we can have 2 more foals from Augusta, before she retires as she is now 18)and Elegancia in the future,
Mandy
Hi Mandy, I'm delighted to hear Elegancia is not going anywhere. I hope that some of the Courthouse related colts on the ground at the moment are available as stallions by the time she is mature enough - the Imad combination seems to work well with Courthouse (mindyou he works well with quite a variety of mares!) so I am not going to complain at the idea of Augusta going back. She really is lovely. Maybe you should steal the Archer's colt by Spearmint out of Silvern Princess as a future hubby for Elegancia!! It would be interesting to reinforce the Courthouse contribution at some point. Happy hubby shopping anyway. Alexia |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 12:27:39 AM
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Hi Jenni, Tanaya does not have Courthouse connections but Horus does carry one line to the Courthouse bred stallion Rashid via his famous granddaughter Kazra - that Nuhra family again. This is on Horus's sire side. Many of the pre-El Shaklan Nuhra family carried Courthouse lines as Barton Lodge were one of the few studs allowed to use the Courthouse stallions. It was a big influence in the development of what was usually seen as the "Nuhra type". Alexia |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 12:39:52 AM
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Originally posted by MinHeOriginally posted by kastell
Hi, does anyone have or know of any living Courthouse bred Arabs, especially pure Courthouse or of Courthouse / Old English lines? They seem to be extremely rare?
All my herd are Courthouse-descended: all bar one are from the female line of the Courthouse foundation mare Belka (Basilisk), and carry the blood of Musgrave-Clark's desert imports as well as the Blunt lines he used. There are probably many people who unwittingly have a Courthouse Arab in their *house* - the Beswick Arab Bahram is a portrait of the Courthouse stallion by that name: Bahram was considered to be the best Arab stallion of his era in the UK. Keren
Unfortunately Keren I don't think there are many people who unwittingly have Courthouse Arabians in their back yard. So many went abroad, very few were allowed to use the stallions and those that did stay in the UK were largely outcrossed away from traditional English breeding.
One of the youngest Courthouse stallions Shabako sadly died young leaving very few foals. A few Crabbet breeders are making the effort to use Spearmint while he is still about. Courthouse lines have contributed to several important programmes - Biddesden, Barton Lodge and of course Rheingolde to the Theobolds' English + Argos programme. But very few of these lines are getting bred back to each other in anyway - you dilute the Courthouse contribution enough and it will cease to be meaningful.
Does anyone here remember Persimmon (St Simon /Kazra)? So very sad that his line has all but vanished - he was a real Courthouse Sainfoin bay and spectacular but very un-modern. He was just born in the wrong era.
Well, I am meant to be finalising the Crabbet Show Catalogue so I had better get back to it!! Alexia |
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sayeeda
Bronze Member
England
92 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 07:43:40 AM
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Hi All
Does my mare have any Courthouse or Old English lines?
Samraa Sayyida is her name she is out of Shimnar (Samhan/Atrisha) and Zareen (Darjeel/Razehra)
Thanks Claire |
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