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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 12:42:03 PM
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Fondation Palomino Stallion from the past...Needing to confirm his previous breeding lines as far back as possible if anyone can help....
Looking for info on Praire Star or Prairie Star and Day Star breeding, colours and years of birth...all need to be traceable.This was an Imported stallion which dominated the Palomino breeding in this Country.....Thanks..Sue
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Sue
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dormouse
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
203 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 2:22:57 PM
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Have you tried contact one of the palomino breed societies in the USA. There is the Palomino Horse Breeders of America and Palomino Horse Association. The Palomino Horse Breeders of America appears to be the older society so might have more history.
www.palominohba.com
www.palominohorseassoc.com
Don't know whether they can help but it might be worth an e-mail?
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 9:08:55 PM
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Hi Sue
I have got the following breeding for Golden Trail:
By Wahoo (TB) who was by Bum out of Sargon Mare
Bum was by Mooch out of Suzie Q
Mooch was by Blue Ash (Lord Martin x Ashtoreth) but unknown dam
The dams line for Golden Trail is Saddlebred and must have been palomino or cremello in order for Golden Trail to be palomino (As other line was TB who cant be dilutes).
The mare Jensens Whirlwind must have been palomino. She was by Vans Golden Glow out of Prairie Star. Prairie Star was by Day Star (Star Davis out of Squeeze-em)
Star Davis was by Glencoe out of Margaret Wood
Squeeze-em was by Lexington out of Skeddaddle.
Dont you just love these American names.
Good luck with the gaps
Debs
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 4:17:59 PM
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Hi Debbs, Thanks for the info, Can you tell me where it came from...how/where did you get it.
WAHOO 1946 was not all TB,as BUM was only approx 3/4 Thoroughbred, Sargon Mare is by Sargon 1915 a Pure Bred Arabian, who traces back to KESIA 1865, a bay mare imported to England by Mr Borden and forms part of the early Arabian foundation lines, with KESIA II 1875 & MAMELUK 1888. Also Shabaka 1894 was taken to the US by Homer Davenport and so was NEJDME 1887, So Sargon Mare is at least 50% Arabian and she maybe more.
Calling Bia, Please can you see what the DataS says about 'Sargon Mare' (sire Sargon 1915) all his other listed off springs are Pure Bred except for one Anglo and NEW SHOWN..any help here welcome.Thanks Sue
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I think there is also a ?? with the Thoroughbred Prairie Star(1949) or Praire Star, can someone look at the TB's Stud Book and confirm the spelling please.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/day+star
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/golden+trail3
and let me know what you think.
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 17 Oct 2007 9:46:38 PM |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 10:28:18 PM
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Hi Sue,
Sargon had 12 pure bred offspring (no listed PBA) and they are all listed on Allbreed. One of them (the mare Fadih 1924, came to UK year..?).
Not much help, sorry!
Bia |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 10:09:46 AM
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According to Weatherbys:
Prairie Star 1949 F Diplomat - Pampas Moon
Has got the following offspring:
Cree 1967 G Bounteous - Prairie Star
Certainly 1965 G Live Spirit - Prairie Star
Gay Knight 1964 G Vilmoray - Prairie Star
Canadian Currency 1962 F Cash And Courage - Prairie Star
Great Year 1960 F Coronation Year - Prairie Star
Vayga 1958 C Vilmorin - Prairie Star
Little Pickle 1957 F Hard Sauce - Prairie Star
Prairie Beacon 1955 F Dogat - Prairie Star
Brief Sparkle 1954 G Distingue - Prairie Star
No Praire Star listed.
Prairie 1937 bay filly (GSB Vol 30 p.560)
Wahoo, 1939, chestnut filly by Cri de Guerre out of Happy-go-Lucky (GSB Vol 30 p.866)
Happy-go-Lucky 1927, brown, by Hapsburg out of Pick and Choose (GSB Vol30 p.309)
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Edited by - Melynda on 18 Oct 2007 12:08:41 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 12:18:15 PM
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Its your Golden Trail(1946) Pedigree were talking about...SARGON was Pure ARAB.
WAHOO is down as by BUM (75%TB)and only interested in that one....for the Golden Trail pedigree.. out of Sargons Mare (50% Arab) by SARGON (100% ARAB & traces back to the first imports in USA & GB), as above.
I also agree with Blue Ash 1927 Chestnut Horse USA.
and remove the Ptaire Star and stick with Prairie Star..
Can anyone find a SUZIE Q from around the 1930ies.
NEW SHOWN & GOLDIE all mares.
and searching MOOCH ,BUM, Year of Births.....don't comlicate things keep it simple..Thanks..
and will go with Prairie Star, other must of been a typo error...
and just had my Hunter Improvement Reg.Vol IX.1900 - 1901. delivered...
Thanks Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 18 Oct 2007 12:35:52 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 9:27:51 PM
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Got my H-B Stud Books Vol VI & VII today.
Don't know if you want this Suzie Q, bay mare 1955 out of her 6 offsping 5 are chestnuts 1 brown born 1960-1965. I have put her on allbreed but her progeny will not show for a few days. Nothing to do with Golden Trail though as to late.
Also found Bendillo, chestnut mare born 1950 owned by Mrs Howell, Kingsettle, Salisbury, probably the same as Kingsettle Stud listed with lots of palomino stallions. She has got 2 chestnut colts, 1 chestnut filly and chestnut filly twins listed as being born 1961-1964 all by Golden Trail (Arab). No names given on offspring.
I've put Bendillo on allbreed too.
Will take a while to look through books. |
Edited by - Melynda on 21 Oct 2007 11:00:03 AM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 12:56:18 PM
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Thanks for that Melynda.Ditto I've just gone through my new?old Hunter Imp. from cover to cover, could do with the next few Vols to bring us up to Fiona & Sylvia etc etc.
Bumped into the Twylands lady yestereday (Mrs Grant Parks) and going off to checkout all her old photo's etc.she kept a few Palomino's & Arabs as well as all the riding ponies.
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 21 Oct 2007 12:58:23 PM |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 1:07:29 PM
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Hi Sue
I got my information from old pedigree charts compiled by some friends I met who have siblings of my old mare.
Most of them are verified by copies of letters from Breed Societies so I have pulled out the paperwork and found a few more things out.
Both Wahoo and Jensens Whirlwind it would appear were actually palomino. They were both registerd with the PHBA Palomino Horse Breeders of America.
Wahoo(PHBA) is definitely by Bum out of an un-named Sargon mare.
Bum was by Mooch out of Susie Q (Thoroughbred)
Jensen's Whirlwind (PHBA) was by Vans Golden Glow who is listed as by Apollo (Thoroughbred) out of Goldie.
Jensen's Whirlwind's dam is listed as Prairie Star (Thoroughbred) by Daystar out of an un-named Thoroughbred.
As all these horses are American I bet the PHBA will be able to confirm. Their records seem to go back forever!
Hope this helps. This thread is fascinating. We couldnt trace our own family trees this far back.
Best wishes
Debs
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 10:38:34 AM
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PHBA Palomino Horse Breeders of America was formed in 1941 so not sure how well records were established then and how accurate they may be.
AQHA American Quarter Horse Association was formed in 1940 and first show held in July 1940. Prior to 1940, Quarter Horses, also called Steeldusts or Billys, did not have an official breed name.
An American TB Apollo was born in 1879 he was gelded according to records but has got some off spring. Still seems to be long living horses in that pedigree of Golden Trail.
Sue,
I got Hunter Stud Book Vol VII (1914-1915), Vol XVI (1939-1950), Vol XVII (1951-1953), Vol XVIII (1954-1957), Vol XIX 1956-1959), Vol XX (1960-1963) if you want me to look something up for you. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 2:10:27 PM
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Ref. Apollo 1879, don't think we can include this one as he would have been 21 in the year 1900 and our Apollo sired the Palomino Vans Golden Glow in 1932, I bet this Apollo was on his knees in 1931 after 55 starts & 24 wins..he would have been 52 years old...so I think we'll give him a miss.....Got any others around the 1920's 1930's...
and also now after Sylvia VI & Fiona. nothing in my Hunter Imp. Book for them???..
Need to turn up all the previous lines on these two mares....
Sue
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Sue
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 5:51:42 PM
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Found another Golden Trail off spring in H.S.B XX called Joy (allbreed Joy68). Golden trail has been listed as American Plomino in there.
Please just remind me about Fiona.
Also found a Goldie mare on Weatherbys for 1900 breeding unknown. |
Edited by - Melynda on 23 Oct 2007 5:53:17 PM |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 10:04:38 PM
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Sorry to ask a stupid question, but does Palomino crossed with Palomino not cancel out?! By that I mean would it not end up cremelo? If that is the case then I think there is a mistake with Wahoo's line. When I looked originally on All Breeds for my boys ancestors it had shown that Bum was TB x QH. Now his details have been changed and it's showing only TB. If Wahoo was Palomino, surely one of his parents had to be chestnut, but on All Breeds now, both parents are Palomino!
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here! I wish that I had printed off Wahoo's parentage off All Breeds at the time now, as I can't remember who it actually had listed after Bum. There certainly wasn't all the gaps in that line that there is now though. |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 3:26:10 PM
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Hi qui Gon, Some of the lines on the Golden Trail were impossible due to the dates of birth, so the ones that are there at the mo are almost certain for this horses pedigree. If that makes any scense.
We had a few wrong horses in there and better have gaps untill we can confirm the true lines. The Sargon Mare , may be Fadih 1924, see Bia's note.
Although a lot of folks keep saying he was part American or Canadian Saddlebred or QH, there is nothing in the breeding so far that shows this.I have emailed the American Palomino Society and hope they'll come back with Golden Trails breeding lines and hope it confirms our & the rest recorded.
We're now trying to confirm breeding for Sylvia VI ( Mr Sun Tan's dam) and Fiona, who I believe are Hunter Improvement mares and possible Irish bred....all to be confirmed.... Keep at It and Good Luck..
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I thought this might be the time to add the breeding as it looks at the moment....
Golden Trail (1946). 43%TB,25%Arab,32%Other.
Wahoo. 37.1/2% TB.25%Arab.25+%Other.
Jensons Whirlwind. 50%TB.25%Other.25%US.
Bum. 75+%TB
Sargons Mare. 50%Arab.
Vans Golden Glow.50%TB.
Prairie Star.50%TB.
All to be confirmed and added to...
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 25 Oct 2007 12:53:47 PM |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 09:35:53 AM
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| Message about Mr. Sun-Tan deleted by me because I had put it under the wrong thread!! Sorry |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
Edited by - saddlebred on 28 Oct 2007 11:24:22 AM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 12:08:32 PM
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Thanks for that Saddlebred, we already have SYLVIA VI (1942) 's HIS registration No. 10592,and her breeder, she won a HIS Premium in 1955, thanks to Melynda. and still trying to fill a few more gaps.
See the link below Ref. Apolo(TB) & Goldie.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/vans+golden+glow |
Sue
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 11:56:17 AM
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Hi Sue and Sheryl
Here is proof from Summer 1968 Palomino magazine that Golden Trails parents were both Palomino.
At least we know that we definitely on the right lines there. One of the biggest problem is that he is imported. The Suzie Q mentioned will therefore be registered in one of the American Studbooks. Hopefully Sue's e-mail to the PHBA will resolve this mystery.
Best wishes
Debs |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 2:24:51 PM
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Hi all, Just heard back from the US Palomino Society,they tell me their records only go back as far as 1980, but, have confirmed the breeding as we thought. will pst the copy here and will also try to get a bit more info out of them....
> Good afternoon, I have gathered some information on Golden Trail
Sire: Wahoo
2nd Sire Bum
3rd Sire Mooch
Dam Susie Q
Dam: Jensen's Whirlwind
2nd Sire: Van's Golden Glow
Dam: Prairie Star
3rd Sire: Apollo
Dam: Goldie
Sire: Day Star
Wahoo had only one horse registered here and that was Golden Trail
Jensen's Whirlwind had 4 horses registered with us.
Golden Trail
Peggy Rey
Whirlwind's Pollyanne
Reyette
I'm sorry we don't have show records available from that time. Our records only
go back to the 80's.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 29 Oct 2007 2:26:36 PM |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 7:18:13 PM
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| Well done Sue. I don't know where you find the time to search for all the fabulous information you are coming up with!! I wouldn't even know where to start! |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 10:10:36 AM
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Without all the efforts of everyone here we'd never got so far..
Have now asked the US Palomino to dig up any past breeding for all the blank spaces, Goldie,Apollo,Susie Q,Mooch,Wahoo,New Shown.
Fingers crossed we get a response..Have a nice Day..Sue
A bit of a negative from the US folks..so back to basics.
> Im sorry there is not any additional information on any of these horses listed with us. none seem to be registred with AQHA. You might check with the Jocky club on Prairie Star, Apollo, Goldie and Susie Q. We do not have any registration numbers listed |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 30 Oct 2007 7:31:05 PM |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 7:54:38 PM
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Thanks for all your efforts Sue. It is great to know that this information is 100% accurate. I know it can be frustrating when there are errors on Allbreeds. I have put a lot of the palomino stock on there but everything I have added is from reliable source i.e. BPS and I always put a ~ before the year when not 100% sure. Trouble is if there are errors in some of the parents details it can send us all off on the wrong track and I am aware of one occasion when I have clicked the wrong parent.
This is getting really exciting now. I have nearly got pictures for all of my youngster's rellys for 6 generations. Bumped into her breeder yesterday as well and she is giving me some pictures of her as a foal with her dam.
Thanks to everyone who has helped - particularly those gorgeous colour pictures of Zalaman, Moonshine Vision and Ready Token Lucky Coin.
Best wishes
Debs |
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