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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 1:48:06 PM
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Was just wondering, who has a strict gelding policy on their stud farm, whether small breeder or not??
It seems to me that there an awful lot (whether arabs or not) of colts for sale, most are not stallion quality! 'Most' people do not want to buy colts, probably because (especially in britain) if you mention the word 'stallion' the buyer instantly thinks of a fire breathing dragon!!
99.9% of my colts are gelded on their mothers UNLESS a prospective buyer requests otherwise, and I will always advise whether the colt in question is suitable stallion quality or not. In my many years of breeding I have only retained one colt and hopefully he will be going to do a successful endurance career this year.
Everywhere I look there are colts for sale, would it not be better to geld them all??? Do people think there is no market for geldings anymore??
I understand that there isnt enough 'hype' for the gelding in the halter ring, but what about ridden? Whether showing, racing, endurance or just the family pet??
I will say that all my gelding foals sell quickly yet I see the same colts repeatedly readvertised!!
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 1:55:23 PM
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There are lots of fabulous geldings out there. I'm sure lots of people will say it's kinder to geld and let the horse live a sociable life.
But in the ridden ring it means the gelding classes are very heavily subscribed and the proportion of geldings is much higher in ridden classes than mares and stallions.
So it's much more of a competition getting your gelding going forward, say to HOYS. |
Roseanne |
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NPA Arabians
Moderator
United Kingdom
2980 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 2:09:31 PM
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Although we dont breed that many foals (roughly one every couple of years!) - I always say that foals are "born" geldings on my yard.
I really hope that my mare has a colt this year, as i would like another "in-hand" gelding.
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Jayne Armstrong - NPA Arabians
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 3:46:12 PM
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The gelding classes at some shows, ridden and in-hand, are getting huge. We need to start dividing them into ages.
I know we have the successful BAC, but at our other shows, geldings need to be brought more into the main ring, split into ages where the class warrants and maybe prize money given. Geldings don't come under the ECAHO ruling of no prize money at C shows. ( I know some do give prize money for them)
Geldings are becoming big business now, a lot of people prefer to geld just so they have a superior animal to have fun with in-hand. I love this idea too.
We have only ever sold four colts entire, one I bitterly regret doing so.
It is difficult, if you see them advertised as colts first, people do have a choice to geld if they so wish. Who are we, to say which is a good colt or not. Which one should be gelded? we all like different horses and bloodlines.
If the home you are selling to is not set up to house a colt then I would say geld it, or don't sell it to them.
Perhaps the best option is to offer to geld if someone wants it when advertised as a colt. You can then offer a price difference in the sale. (not sure which way though!) |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 5:05:58 PM
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Hear hear Sue! There is a split for junior and senior geldings at the Nationals but if you are sensible and take your time backing and acquainting your horse you only have a year or two in juniors. I reckon there are plenty of geldings who will never get the chance to go to HOYS because of the large classes, that are actually better than a proportion of the mares and geldings. (Please don't shoot me down everyone - I know that all the HOYS horses are gorgeous!)
And you're quite right about not selling to a colt to a home that's not geared up to a stallion.
However, there are some Arabs (and Egbert has referred to this plenty of times in her appraisals of certain bloodlines) that really don't come into their own looks wise etc until they are quite old. I know one of mine (gelding) has got better and better with age. So you could be gelding a top stallion. How on earth is the decision taken? Glad I don't have to take it! |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 5:32:28 PM
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If Kuraishiya has a colt next year, I would probably geld no matter how fab it was. I've no facility for a stallion and no particular desire to keep one or campaign it in the vigorous way you doubtless need to in order to attract mares. I'm sure it is an enormous undertaking and responsibility to ensure that any stallion is kept happy and useful.
Jen
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 6:05:31 PM
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I bred my first arab foal 7 years ago. A colt was born and at 11 months he was gelded. He is now doing very well under saddle, I ride him purely for pleasure, but a good friend of mine schools him and is bringing him out under saddle in the show ring this summer. He has a lovely life, and lives happily with another arab gelding, two arab mares and my welsh sec d mare.
At present I know his half brother (born same year) is for sale, he is still a stallion, only lightly backed and his owners are desperate to get rid of him. He does not have the life my boy has.
I think what others are proposing is the best way forward, after all more often than not the gelding turns out to be the ambassador for the breed out in the big wide world.
We bred a filly last year, which we shall keep and next year I hope to have one more foal (mare going to stud at Easter). If it is a colt it too will be gelded and we will keep him too. I can't bear to part with them!!!
Nicky |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 9:20:34 PM
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Hi
I definately think that it's more likely to be that most people do not have thier horses at home or on thier own land, and most livery yards do not have stallion facilities, limiting people to buying geldings or mares, so I think that if alot more colts were gelded sales would be better, the gelding classes are huge now, but I think alot of classes are split according to entries, making it much easier for qualifiers for BAC and HOYS, I also think they are much much much harder to win than they were.
B (France)
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 9:32:44 PM
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I would like to point out though that a lot of colts I have seen repeatedly advertised are nice horses, but there are only so many stallions needed in the world and I am firmly of the opinion that only the best of the best should be kept entire. Its not so much how full gelding classes are for BAC or HOYS as I would imagine 95% of geldings never go to these classes, its the idea that some breeders seem to think their colts may be future stallions, although in reality this just isnt so. Its a pity there isnt a gelding incentive (apart from cheaper registration prices) to encourage people to promote their stock as geldings and not entires. And not feel that they have gelded him because he was second rate in any way.
I would like to point out before someone gets the wrong idea that I am talking about horses world wide of all breeds and types and not having a go at anyone in particular. |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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Silvern_Scepris
Gold Member
England
1084 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 10:43:38 PM
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| I went to a stud yesterday and the owner of the stud didn't 'believe' in gelding horses! They had lots of colts aswell!! |
  
London/Essex Border |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 11:10:13 PM
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You mustn't apologise for your opinion Pashion. I used to geld every living thing here with testicles, my husband runs for cover
I do feel that maybe I should have tried hard to keep some entire, but, as you so wisely say, it is the quality of life for the animal and finding the right home for an entire, is not easy, especially today.
We seem to have become a nation of smaller breeders, some only having one or two arabs and still competing at the highest level, some keeping arabs in mixed livery yards, some can not keep colts at all, some have no idea of what is involved in keeping a stallion happy, so with everything changing so very much, to me, it makes sense for us to change our shows to accommodate this 'newer' type of arab owner/breeder.
Promoting the gelding classes by splitting them more and offering prize money might encourage more to geld colts and more people to view them as a prestigious quality animal with a healthy show ring advantage. Thus helping to sell colts and offer a good gelding incentive from the show classes alone.
Sounds ideal in a perfect world!!
We do suffer from some older breeders who still view their colts as too well bred to geld.
How many times do we see colts or stallions kept in dreadful living conditions because of ignorance from the owner, or even fear from that owner. They shut them in a stable for days on end because more often or not they are afraid to lead them or handle them.
I worry that I sometimes jump the gun and geld too soon, what I view as not good enough has been pointed out to me, or more than one occasion, as 'stallion' quality, and what on earth did I do that for! Once I didn't tell a friend I had gelded a colt for a year so silly.
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 10:30:15 AM
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It is a bit tough for those in gelding classes. Because there are so many, the show gets a good proportion of entry fees from them, but the competition among them is very strong and difficult. And if they do split the classes because of size, there then has to be a competition among the junior and senior to find the qualifier. Can't see how else it could be done unless, even at HOYS, there was a senior and junior gelding class, and four groups in the championship (mares, stallions, junior and senior geldings).
It's worth mentioning that some people on this site (I'm not a breeder so can't comment) say it is a disaster that some of the older bloodlines are being lost, so gelding those colts might be a loss to the breed. |
Roseanne |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 10:49:11 AM
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Some of our classes for males have become almost un-balanced, at some shows the colt and stallion classes have only a handful in, where the geldings have loads. This to my mind may push a colt or stallion forward who is not really of Champion quality, where as the gelding class, which is probably well supported, has many, so many, that the resulting final Champion is really very, very good indeed.
I agree with what you say Roseanne, some good potential stallions are lost by owners/breeders being too quick to geld.
I go back to what I said before, finding the right home is the most important factor in selling colts. Now that is the hardest thing to do.
I have regretted selling an entire and never regretted selling a gelding....but regretted gelding a colt!!does this make sense. |
Edited by - SueB on 24 Feb 2007 10:55:42 AM |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 1:00:23 PM
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Again, hear hear Sue! If you look at the numbers this year in novice stallions and novice geldings and see how many are coming forward for the first time. You'll find it will be a far more rigorous competition in the gelding class. You've got to be seriously good to win in open competition on a gelding now.
As far as the selling of colts or any other offspring goes, I was always advised that you should only breed if you wanted the foal that comes out of your mare, rather than going for the 'lucky bag' principle in which you can't resist seeing what you get from certain breedings, and then getting stuck with a horse you don't want, and worse, being stuck with a colt or stallion because you can't bear to geld an entire which you consider has such good breeding! (Hope that hasn't lit the blue touch paper!!!)
The added difficulty with Arabs is that quite a few people breed avidly for non-riding horses, which seems to be unique in the horse world, apart from miniature horses perhaps, and that must cause problems. |
Roseanne |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 1:22:15 PM
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I am getting a filly, who I hope will become my foundation mare. I hope to breed good, honest, all round riding arabs, not specifically for one discipline or another, but for all round pleasure...if they excel in hand, or rdden..it is up to the people who buy the foals, but if I genuinely think tht one colt has stallion quality..I wuld probably leave him until 2 years old..then decide whether to geld or not..sometimes you get an exqusite yearling, and then you get them to 2 and they turn into something that isn't quite as good.
You must consider quality of life, and also, you must be totally honest with yourself..and get a outside opinion if possible! |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 1:31:14 PM
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Hi
Although I have never had that many horses, I would always go and find a horse to buy rather than breed, simply from my point of view that I would rather see what I am buying, not what I'm breeding, so I think if more people bought instead of bred the balance would be much better, Crikes I even geld/spay the cats for fear of not being to re-home the kittens, also sometimes the breeders live in Cuckoo land with thier prices for their youngstock, I know all about the cost of breeding etc etc, but it makes huge sense like Pashon says to breed but be objective and geld before they leave the breeders, realistically priced these animals stand a lot better chance of being bought by a person who will have them for a lifetime, and yes I have seen the the conseqences of people buying colts and not really being able to handle them.
B (France) |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 8:27:13 PM
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Silvern Scepris - I can't believe a stud farm would say that!!! Surely they don't think ALL their colts are future studs??????
I like to think I breed quality usefull horses, some as always are better than others, thats the way of the world. I don't want to see the stallion pool go down, and in certain breed lines they certainly should be preserved, but whatever the wee beasties pedigree, if he is conformationally or temperamentely incorrect he should not breed hoping he will 'throw back'.
I just wish more breeders would geld before selling, this would help as mentioned by someone above the problem of people buying the 'sweet colt' who turns into their own personal nightmare, maybe through inexperience, maybe not, and giving the world happy sane horses that can hopefully live a normal life.
As mentioned by Jaybird there is also the problem of price, some are priced to the ridiculous, and everyone knows that breeding is not profitable, so make prices that people can AFFORD! |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 8:28:07 PM
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i dont breed ( obviusly!!) but as did post on here a while ago were had all the geldings gone??? as the sister of a prospective buyer 6 months down the line and still no horse!!
i am pleased to say we have found the dream gelding!! but cant reveal yet as isnt officially ours , or more importantly toris just yet well, maybe a 1/3 is! going back to the subject inhand p[eople do tend to hang on to their great geldings because they are just that!!
its a shame as there are some colts out there that would make fab allround ridden geldings and have the best life ever to boot ( not saying people dont care of their stallions/colts) but its not a easy life for a stallion at the best of times
promotion of geldings in a sense would help @ the promotion of shows etc we have so much equality in life it seems we should reflect this into our perfomance classses as all our arabs are - beautiful and worthy of admiration whatever their sex
i do belive there is a big market for geldings still especially for the ameture rider where they can have a wonderful quality horse and be confident that they can compete with the best of them , surely it does make sense?
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 9:12:36 PM
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Ditto Dito Ditto Beryl
Very well put,
Unfortunatly, I have just not been able to catch John YET!!! |
       
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 08:19:09 AM
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Madmare
NEVER decide to geld at two (unless he is really horrendous) as so many colts go through an "ugly duckling" stage at two. I am all for gelding, have never sold an entire, and had my stallion gelded at five to go as a riding horse and they are over the moon with him. He is at a DIY livery yard and everyone loves him. He was a very gentle laid back stallion anyway.
I don't breed many and have had mostly fillies but will keep a good colt to see how he turns out and if not tip top then it is the chop. I agree there are far too many stallions who should be geldings and so many stallions that have thorughly miserable lives. If you don't have the facilities and the courage to handle your colt/stallion then don't have one. My stallion is quite happy in his box in winter but he has to go out for at least a few hours a day as I think it is bad for them to be shut up all the time.
Barbara |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 10:08:27 AM
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I completely agree about the two year old ugly duckling! As I said earlier, on Egbert's Tail Female Line thread she highlights certain bloodlines where the offspring don't achieve complete maturity til a third the way through their lifespan - and then are exceptional.
My own gelding was a rangy, lanky, not very attractive lad at all at two; possibly because he was destined to reach 15.2hh or so and was just outgrowing himself. He is Polish/Russian. No one thought him attractive (except me!) especially in comparison with the compact little English Arabs of the same age in the fields with him.
But he is now rising 10 and has blossomed over the years into a very elegant, big, powerful and graceful horse. You wouldn't think they were the same animal. |
Roseanne |
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Silvern_Scepris
Gold Member
England
1084 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 4:53:05 PM
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| Pashon, the man the owned the stud is from the Middle East, and it's not in their nature to geld apparently. I think it's a macho thing. The groom there didn't agree with him though, and although all the horses were beautiful, not all of them were stallion material (imo). |
London/Essex Border |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 5:23:56 PM
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It seems silly to keep all colts entire, but maybe middle eastern men are a little insecure?? (sorry if any middle eastern men are reading this only joking!!)
I do agree that some lines 'blossom' later in life, my own senior stallion is a good advocate of just that............but............and it is a big BUT...........I really think they should be showing some very good potential as a foal/yearling to warrant leaving them entire. Maybe I am just too fussy??? |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 6:08:20 PM
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If the Middle Eastern guys were breeding for racing or endurance perhaps they feel leaving a horse entire will help to give them a competitive 'edge'.
I know the Spanish don't geld their horses and they think we're very wimpish for doing so. Their horses are expected to behave in other company. |
Roseanne |
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Silvern_Scepris
Gold Member
England
1084 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 6:28:24 PM
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Hi Roseannem
they were all in-hand and ridden horses. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2007 : 6:44:44 PM
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Well perhaps they live in fantasy land. High cost + impressive pedigrees = a stunning stallion? Not necessarily of course!
Maybe they have the money, staff and facilities to keep loads of stallions. Are they all standing at stud or are they just not cut? |
Roseanne |
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