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jo H
Bronze Member
 England
91 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 7:05:09 PM
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I have just bought a beautiful filly and intend showing her this summer.
Can anybody give me some tips on how to teach her how to 'stretch' ready for our first show?
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 08:19:16 AM
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There was an article by Emma Maxwell in the AHS Yearbook - everything you need to know about teaching the show pose. Maybe you could borrow a copy from someone?
Marie. |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 12:47:25 PM
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If you mean the head-up stretch, it does not make your horse look attractive and is disliked by many judges. There is a strong move away from it.
You are better getting her to stand well without figetting, then get someone who knows about horses, not just Arabs, to look her over and tell you what are her weak points and how to adjust her pose to minimise them. Every horse is different, so it is pointless trying to make them all stand the same way.
The 'stretch' was invented to disguise the defects of bad horses, so why do something that screams you have something to hide? Just a thought...
As Marie says, read Emma Maxwell's article for more input...
Keren |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 1:36:08 PM
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That is not strictly true Keren. (Quote - "If you mean the head-up stretch, it does not make your horse look attractive and is disliked by many judges. There is a strong move away from it.")
Many of the professional trainers are still using this method and at a 'C' show you will not see many, if any, horses at the top of the line that are not stood up in this way. I suggest that Jo H teach her filly both ways so that she has the option to use either.
Jo H, Emma Maxwell's article was great, if you haven't got a copy I am sure you can buy a copy from the AHS.
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 2:13:26 PM
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Is there someone out there who can enlighten me as to why we have to stick our horses heads in the air. I can see no advantage to this as when you come to ride them the muscles are developed under the neck and you would have redevelop them on top. I also agree that it is very unattractive. I think it may help towards the dislike other people dislike the arab.
Personally I preferred the old way of showing when you could see a good head, neck and body. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 2:30:44 PM
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| I hate the stretched pose with head in the air as well. The high head and the resulting hollow back, and hind legs left out behind are exactly the opposite of what is wanted in a ridden horse and it also looks ugly. |
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jo H
Bronze Member
England
91 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 3:22:55 PM
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Thanks to everybody for your suggestions. I too do not like the 'head up' stretch but like the other pose whereby there is a nice arch in the neck and head stretch out (not up).
I want to be a real contender for the class C shows this year and don't really want to go and make a fool of myself when I have a beautiful arab filly that could do extremly well.
The food idea is a good one and the most obvious but i am afraid I will make her nippy from feeding her by hand.
I will endeavour to get hold of the article many of you mentioned. |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 9:54:08 PM
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| Trouble is to get the arch you need to go up first just like a stallion will do when he's challenging, the best neck are seen when they do the nose to nose thing which can be a bit hair raising at times!! |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 1:04:30 PM
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| Originally posted by tamila
Is there someone out there who can enlighten me as to why we have to stick our horses heads in the air. I can see no advantage to this as when you come to ride them the muscles are developed under the neck and you would have redevelop them on top. I also agree that it is very unattractive. I think it may help towards the dislike other people dislike the arab.
Personally I preferred the old way of showing when you could see a good head, neck and body.
The head-up stretch was invented in America to disguise horses with bad profiles and small piggy eyes, since the stance makes it harder for the judge to see the exact facial profile, and any horse that has its head forced up HAS to close its eyes and squint down to see its handler, which makes even the most glorious eye look small and unattractive (this was clearly explained in an article by the acknowledged breed expert Gladys Brown Edwards in AHW some years ago). Likewise, the practice of stretching one hind leg out and rotating the pelvis is designed to disguise croups that are short/steep or higher than the withers. That is why I say they are not *good* techniques to learn if you have a good horse as judges are well aware of these "tricks" and will take it you have something to hide.
I really would not recommend an amateur owner to try these things out, as you have to be very experienced to get the horse correctly balanced again to be able to move off easily when you have interfered with its natural posture: you are much better getting your horse to stand *naturally* balanced (and well-behaved), and if you need to stretch the neck, get the horse to reach down and forward: it gives a much better "picture", as well as developing muscles correctly for later work under saddle (this is Tamila's "old way").
Angel, I think you will see more judges asking for horses *not* to be shown in this "goose hangs high" posture in the coming seasons.
Keren |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 2:03:23 PM
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Thanks Keren for the info. I had thought that this was why it was developed and had something to do with why I stopped showing a few years ago. Now that the old way is coming back I will have another go with my new babies next year.
Also thanks for explaining what I meant. I tend to forget there are people on here who may not know the old ways. |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 2:05:38 PM
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Keren, we will just have to wait and see on that one :))) I think you know as well as I do that an 'amature', as you put it, will be down the bottom of the line if they stand with their horse in a 'natural, square, foot in each corner pose' so I think it is a little unfair of you to recommend that 'amatures' do not try to stand their horses up in the same manner as the 'professionals'.
We all know that over time life moves on, just as the Arab breed has. If you took one of the top stallions from the 50's or 60's do you think they could compete against the likes of Eternity Ibn Navarrone? No they couldn't. Methods change over time and I have to admit some are not always for the better but I will go as far as saying you will not have a winner at Nationals this year who is shown in the 'old fashioned' way, wearing an old fashioned style
in-hand bridle with a horseshoe stallion bit! :)
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 2:17:53 PM
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Jo,
if you intend to show at C show level this year, you will need to get your filly trained and used to the stand up position.
The best way to do this is to either have someone who knows what they are doing come to your yard and working with both you and your horse, or, you could go to a showing seminar like the recent one at silverdale, where they will demonstrate the best ways to train and get the most out of showing your horse yourself.
You can start to do little things now that will help you and your horse prepare for the training. Teaching her to 'stand' or 'whoa' on command is helpful, and everytime you do it, make sure she stops with her back legs 'split' - as in, one in front of the other.
I used to train all my horses myself when i was younger (and should have been at school  ) but I used to go to a lot of shows and study the trainers.... you can do it with practice, as soon as someone points you in the right direction.
getting the horse to stretch and 'give' its neck is taught when you are confident that the horse has the standing position mastered.
You can decide exactly how much stretch you want in your horses pose, over stretched horses don't look good but nor do those who are just stood there looking like they are waiting for a bus!
Don't be misled into thinking that the judge will asume you have something to hide if you pose your horse, if you show at C show level or above almost every horse in the class will be presented this way and you won't be penalised for it.
Where abouts are you Jo? maybe there is someone nearby who could give you a few pointers or help you out? |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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Edited by - Michelle on 08 Mar 2006 2:21:29 PM |
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jo H
Bronze Member
England
91 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 3:53:19 PM
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Thanks Michelle 
At last a simple answer to a simple question!!!!
If I had written asking for peoples opinions on this matter I would be pleased with all the responses. However, yours Michelle was the only one of any real help! (Oh, apart from those who suggested the AHS Year Book and I am pleased to say that I requested a copy today).
 I am so privaleged that I have been able to purchase one of Silvern Risalm's foals, that I want to do everything in my power to do it right!
 I am not a complete novice....riding since I was four and owned horses since I was about nine, shown part-bred Arabs in class C shows, qualified for ponies UK ext.
I know what is expected in classes I aspire to win, but lack the experience of the 'professional arab showers'.
My plea was in acknowledging that fact and hoping that somebody would be kind enough to assist!
Cheers mate your a star....and if anybody else would like to give me any more tips, they will be truly welcome.
P.S If anybody can point me in the direction of a forth coming event that will help, again I would be greatful - Im in Essex!
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 9:38:44 PM
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| When you split the back legs watch as one leg comes off the ground and then give your whoa/stand command so she has to put that foot down but that she is already thinking of stop. If that makes sense!! |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 12:56:34 PM
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Jo, I am sorry you consider my input to be "opinion" when it is actually based on experience both of what is currently happening in Arabian showing and also of being an amateur myself.
As an AHS/ECAHO DC, I am of necessity closely involved with judges, and I can say that the vast majority would prefer to see horses shown (especially by amateurs) in a natural, balanced stance rather than the unnatural, unbalanced pose that is the current fad. If all horses in a class are shown in this way, then of course the judge has to place what's in front of them, but as Angel says, fashions change and there are strong indications that the fashion for the unnatural pose has had its day.
Shows are already beginning to state in their rules (especially amateur shows/home produced classes) that they will require horses to be shown "unstretched", therefore it seems to me irresponsible, Jo, to recommend that you teach your horse a stance that will not be in her best interests - or yours - in the showring. Since you have shown PBAs, then you will already know how to get a horse to stand correctly for the judge, and I suggest you make sure you filly is grounded in this BEFORE you try any of the "fads" on her. After all, if a horse knows how to produce a balanced stance to begin with, you have something to fall back on when the fads change! It also gives you the opportunity to show your horse at open shows, where the unbalanced pose is regarded with distaste by nearly *all* the judges!
Angel, do you *really* think that horses such as Irex, Rangoon, Naseel, Fadjur, Raffles or Khemosabi would not be competitive tody, no matter how they were shown? Because I don't think you would get many takers on that! Yes, we have more extreme heads today, but sadly this has all too often been at the expense of good legs, deep heartgirths/ribs and overall balance. In fact, I was at a C show with one of the world's acknowledged experts on the breed last year, and she gave it as her opinion that the only horse there that really fulfulled the breed standard was in the gelding class!
Keren |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 2:01:55 PM
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I am totally on Keren's side. The old stallions were as they should be and hade good bodies and legs. As has been said many times before these are the most difficult parts to get right and until you do there is no point in worrying about the head too much.
I remember very clearly being told by George White, who was head groom for the Abel-Smiths, that you must get the confirmation correct and then put on your head.
I persinally thinbk that all horses whatever breed should be capable of being ridden or doing any other discipline. But that is just my opinion. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 2:23:30 PM
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| Tamila---it's turning into a very strange world if it is "just your opinion" that all horses should be capable of being ridden---but sadly the world is strange. I am in complete agreement with Keren and you. |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 4:33:19 PM
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Zan, I am sure most horse people will agree with me and you but I have come across those who say this one would be good as a 'show horse' because they will never wish to ride it. Unfortunately this also happens in the dog showing world. I feel very sad when I see, for instance, gundogs who win in the show ring but would never survive out shooting.
In my previous post I was clumsily trying not to offend anyone. Being honest I have definitely seen many horses' who you could never put under saddle, win in hand. I have many a time heard the 'old ' grooms that a particular horse would not carry a rider very far if at all. These were the type of horses thsat were winning when I gave up showing. |
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max
Silver Member
England
376 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 9:36:41 PM
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If a stand up/pose is done correctly then it is not ugly and the horse does not hollow, but it must be trained the right way, you will not go wrong by emmas ways, give her a ring get her out to train you and your filly, it will be well worth it in the end |
Sam Clyma
WKD Arabians
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Taylor
Gold Member
England
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 10:43:51 PM
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I know its a bit cheeky to ask but would anyone be willing to scan a copy of the article and email it to me Id really love to read it!
Many thanks |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 08:28:57 AM
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| I like to see a horse stand up nicely sometimes this is over done and the horse looks worse but when it's done right most horses can be made to look stunning - just my opinion though! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 09:35:30 AM
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This is one of those things like a bridle path isn't it? If you don't have one, or you don't do the 'stretch' then you can't really be professional, even though the traditional, knowledgable owners would rather stick to the old, tried and tested, natural ways which show off an Arab the way it is, rather than the artificial way it can be made to look - as it can!
The problem is that the judges do actually place the ones that are being 'stretched' and I know of people whose success in the ridden ring has accelerated since creating a bridle path. I've even been told I should do that myself this year to accentuate my Arab's head and neck 'set-off'.
It would be great to send a questionnaire to all the panel judges asking their honest opinions of what they want to see and why.
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Roseanne |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 12:51:45 PM
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It may also be worth noting that on the AHS judges' course, it is emphasised that the correct silhouette for the breed is a series of smooth curves from nose to tail. The 'stretch" completely distorts this and present the horse as a series of angles. Of course, this is to the benefit of those horses which are naturally angular to begin with, and *not* to those which have the right curves in the right places!
The Bedouin did not breed their horses to show, but as *naturally balanced* riding animals. I personally find it completely paradoxical that whereas the majority of the equine world is embracing various forms of "natural horsemanship" techniques that enable horse and human to work in harmony, part of the Arabian scene seems fixed on clinging to a mode of showing which is exactly the opposite (I grant you that IS my personal opinion, unlike my previous postings!)
Keren |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 2:15:11 PM
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I will stand by my statement that in todays 'Showing World' some of the old stallions, if shown the old fashioned way would not fair well in the ring with some of the current younger or european judges.
I am also not saying that a Arab should only be pretty, of course conformation comes into it! I have a 4yr old filly that has been EM trained since she was 2. She has done well in the in-hand show ring, being shown as most professionally trained horses are, stretched. She has now been professionlly backed ready for a ridden career and I am told by a professional rider, she should do very well because she is nicely put together, of good size and has plenty of bone. She is also working very nicely in the correct outline, as do my other ridden Arabs and this is without the use of draw-reins and gadgets etc.....So I think this proves that the 'stretch' does not ruin a horse's future ridden career.
I will also tell you Keren that the 'stretch' is not used just for ugly horses and those with bad conformation!! I am sure the owners of, to name a few, LVA Maximus, Psynergy, Aliha etc...will be pleased to hear that they have horses with "bad profiles and small piggy eyes!!"
Natural horsemanship, my thoughts on that?....I have seen horses seriously hurt by people who think that because they have read a book and been to a seminar that they know all there is about looking after, handling and riding horses the 'natural way' so as I said, just because a method is 'in fashion', which this is, does not mean that everybody has to follow it. My point in my 1st reply.
I was not going to let Jo H think she should teach her filly to stand one way only, Jo H would have looked very silly in todays showing world if she had took your advice, I think it is only fair she hear both sides and choose for herself. This is of course just my opinion.
I am sure that in a few years Keren you will be telling us we should be using a totally different method of horsemanship....This is called a change of 'fashion'. It is also nice to see that in previous posts you apparently speak on behalf of all the Arab showing community, I don't quite think that is true, do you?
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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