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Evie
Platinum Member
 England
3513 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 11:29:56 AM
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My mare has just gone back to living out all the time in the last week. I go and feed her every morning before work and I have to catch her as the other horses in the field don't get fed at the same time, bring her out of the field so she can eat her breakfast away from the others. I want to do this so she associates me with food and will come to me as I have had a problem with catching her in the past. All last week she was fine and even came up to me on Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning. On Saturday I brought her back up to the yard so I could ride her, then she stayed in Saturday night, I rode her on Sunday morning, then she went back out on Sunday afternoon.
Yesterday morning when I walked across the field to get her she walked off, so I just opened the gate out of her field into the next one and let her walk over to her breakfast on her own. Then while she was eating I put her headcollar on.
This morning though was a different matter and she wouldn't let me near her at all. A friend has been teaching me some join up and that if a horse goes away from you when you want to catch it to chase it away. So I spent 20 minutes chasing her round the field in the rain! Just what I want to be doing before work! I didn't feed her this morning and am going to see what happens tomorrow morning when I go to feed her.
Has anyone got any suggetions on what to do so she will let me put her headcollar on, lead her out of the field to her breakfast so she learns that she has to be caught before she gets her food?? 
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Bristol |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 3:38:25 PM
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| sounds like she isnt hungry.Keep persevering,and dont get annoyed.Horses love it if they can rattle you!talk to her calmly and queitly and dont make an issue of anything.I used to catch Herb by walking in backward!! |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 4:14:32 PM
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No miracle cures, I'm afraid. BUT, when I had difficulty catching my pony (years ago ) I would walk up to him and walk away before he gave me any signal that he was going to run off. Unbeknown to me, probably doing a bit of join up... It always used to get his interest as he couldnt make out what I was doing and curiousity always got the better of him.
If my Arab decides that he isnt going to come in (like yesterday when the farrier arrived) I never look at him and walk almost sideways towards his shoulder, talking soothingly and then once I actually put my hands on him he will stand still.
Sometimes our neddies can be little  's but as frustrating as it is, I never let them see me lose my temper. You always take steps backwards at this point and its best to walk away.
On a less serious note, put your trackie suit on and the 20 minutes running around each day will keep you fit. Sorry, couldnt resist |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 4:18:27 PM
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| From what I know about join up it's more about body language than chasing--the main aim being to get the horse to submit so that it wants to come to you and you then change your body language to allow it to do what it wants. I would think it would also need to be done in a limited space,without other horses there, hence the round pen, otherwise you just land up chasing it off back to its friends, which entirely defeats the purpose of making it want to be with you. I have to add though, I've never done it myself. I'm afraid I haven't really got any great advice, because it's not a problem I've ever had to deal with, but showing her the food, rattling it and then walking away so that she follows you might work? If not, maybe you'll have to do some work on your relationship generally with her. Good luck. |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 4:58:35 PM
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Yeah we do have a round pen at the yard, but first I have to catch her to be able to put her in it!!
I know about the not looking at them and that, I think I was just a bit frustrated this morning with the lack of time due to having to get to work and that.
I will see what happens tomorrow I guess. |
Bristol |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 5:01:08 PM
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| Also I think I would like to get in touch with a natural horsemanship instructor as I really don't have any idea what I am doing in this regard!! Can anyone suggest someone good in the Herts/Bucks area, or where I could find details of someone? |
Bristol |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 6:22:42 PM
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| There is something in this natural horsemanship,mine went to walk away from me tonight,so i turned my back on him and stood there,trying not to laugh,he thought eh up this isnt what i want from mumsie wumsie,and walked straight up to me then i caught him and indoors we went! |
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mazey
Gold Member
England
501 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 6:26:31 PM
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Hi Evie, Don't know any natural horsemanship trainers in your area (I'm in Cornwall) but if you type it into Google you should get on to sites that'll give you trainers in your area. Try Intelligent HOrsemanship that is Kelly Marks - Monty Roberts accredited trainer. Also there are American trainers such as Mark Raschid and Leslie Desmond who come over here every year and do clinics. Deboniks who posts on this site is a mine of information on natural horsemanship and could probably help you.
Also I've seen trainers doing join up in fields, so you don't need a round pen, though obviously it is much easier initially. You just have to keep the horse out and going until he is showing signs of wanting to come in to you and then take your eyes off him and turn away inviting him in- so you take the pressure off him and you become the comfort zone.
I play with my mare at liberty in a field and it's great fun - when she comes in she gets a reward (lots of strokes) and then she'll follow me round like a dog. We run round, changing directions, changing paces, stopping, starting, backing up, over poles, (I've done lots of Parelli training with her on the ground and at liberty) |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 7:02:51 PM
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Thanks Mazey
This is when I need a lot of time as being an Arab my mare doesn't tire easily and sending her away from me until she wants to come to me usually goes on for a long time!! |
Bristol |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 7:26:06 PM
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| When she walks away from you, try walking away from here and see what happens. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 9:58:32 PM
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Hi Evie,I've just caught up with this thread
I would stop chasing your horse for this reason, if you are not absolutly sure of what you are doing ie; body language and more importantly when to stop(timing)all you will acheive is pushing your horse away from you.You will never catch her. Look at it from her point of veiw She has gone from a stable enviroment to FREEDOM! She is back in her herd eating grass and socialising Along you come and at first she's pleased to see you but soon learns that you are going to take her away from all that and work herWhat would you do in her position??
I would go into her feild as much as possible without a head collar. Offer her an apple or groom or scratch her and walk away. Do not attempt to catch her.Spend time 'chilling' with her. When she is ok with that do the same but carry a head collar,rub her with it even put it on and take it off again and leave. Soon her attitude with you will changeDon't just take her out of her 'comfort zone' to work Take her out groom,massage,feed her as well as train/ride her.When you come back from a ride don't turn her straight out leave her tied up for a while,that will teach her to stop rushing back to the feild(you only need to do this with horses that are impatient to go home)
All this will be a foundation to catch her easily.If you make 8 out of 10 situations possitive for her, twice you will catch her without her realisingmaking 10 out of 10 possitive
I hope this makes sense |
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jdavis
Bronze Member
England
72 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 10:01:03 PM
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| Is there anyone else's horse you can feed at the same time? My girls compete to get to the gate first as soon as they see me and I wonder if a little 'competition' might encourage her to come especially if she thinks her mum's attention is focused on someone else - just an idea - good luck. |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 10:45:28 AM
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Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
Debbie I wish I had the time to do what you have suggested, but unfortunately I only have half an hour at the most in the mornings when I go to the field to feed her. The three other horses in the field are fed in the evening at about 5 pm as that is when their owner can get there, but I can't get there in the evening until 6 pm at the earliest. This is why I have been feeding her separately. I was hoping that she would associate me with food and want to come and have her breakfast every morning.
This morning I stayed calm and spoke to her in a calm and quiet way. I took the bucket of food into the field with me and walked towards her with it, holding it in front of me but she just walked off as usual and didn't want to know. She was eating what little grass there is in the field. When I left the field and walked along the fence she did come towards the fence but if i went closer to the fence she just walked off again.
I think I may have to go back to having her in at night. I have emailed a couple of natural horsemanship people so will wait to hear from them. |
Bristol |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 10:47:47 AM
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| I like Deboniks sound advice.That makes perfect sense,and what i used to do with mine to catch him .go in chill out for a bit in each others company then walk away,so he was never sure when i wanted to catch him or not. |
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 11:32:12 AM
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not being funny evie, but i hear what you have said about 'not having time to do it that way' all the time. look at it this way, you also say you don't have time to chase her round before goingto work. if you don't change the pattern you will never change the behaviour!
the answer is make the time. if she doesn't want to be caught to have her feed then leave her! don't exagerate the problem by opening gates for her and rewarding her for what she is doing. if she won't let you catch her then don't feed her, food should never be used as an aid to catching horses. she should just want to come to you. do as debbie says, instead of feeding her just use the time messing with her. you don't have to spend all your time riding her. cut your ride down in time and give her something that she would really want, physical contact. spending this time doing this now will save you hours in the future. if you haven't got the time to give her soemthing she will benifit from then you need to look at whether you have time for her full stop. i don't mean owning a horse, just this one. she has issues that you need to sort out for the benifit for your relationship with her, and more importantly her's with you.
i'm not trying to have a go at you, just pointing out that you do have to put in the time, even if it means you are not doing what you set out to do.
suzanne |
suzanne walsh
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 11:39:03 AM
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Evie - I have watched Lewis Blackburn work with my friend's horse (including catching issues among other things). I cannot speak highly enough of him.
He is based in Essex & travelled to us in West Sussex, so I don't think Herts is too far. He didn't charge the earth either.
His website is http://www.blackburnnaturalhorsetraining.com/ and his contact details are on there.
I posted a more lengthy reply on Shah's thread about how he works.
Catching a difficult horse relies mostly about you responding quickly to the horse's body language. What you aim to do is make it being coming to you & being caught the easy option. So if the horse walks/runs off when you approach, you don't need to actually run after them, but you put pressure on them by adopting a bold upright posture & swinging your leadrope while looking directly at their hindquarters to keep the horse moving. The minute they display signs of even wanting to stop (lowering the head, flicking an ear in your direction etc) you stop twirling your rope & take all pressure off, stepping backwards, adopting a more relaxed posture etc. Hope I have explained this in a vaguely comprehensible way??! It is obviously best to be shown, as the cues you use & respond to are very subtle, but what you are teaching your horse is coming to you to be caught is a far easier & more pleasant option than running away.
Horses are of course extremely sensitive to bodyt language, as this makes up such a large part of how they communicate.
Best of luck with your mare, I'm sure with a little patience & perseverence she will be fine. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 8:11:24 PM
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Hi Evie, Suzanne is right~it's all the 'little'things which make the whole picture
You don't want her to associate food with you either otherwise she will become really in your face and bargy. Both Suzanne and I practise Natural Horsemanship if this is the route you want to take it's the best advise I can give.She is obviously not starving couldn't you just feed her at night? There is a great guy in Kent his name is David Grojec he might travel to help you also.Lewis Blackburn's site looks ok to I've never heard of him but he does most of same stuff we do You will usually pay alot of money for them to help you. If I were you I'd buy the Parelli Level 1 from ebay and get started on that. Or be prepared to part with alot of money! Clinics are very helpful and usually give you great motivation.If you want details of them I can give them to you.
Good luck if you try the join up method in your open feild! I remember watching Monty join up and catch the wild Mustang. Obviously a larger space but he did have a horse to do it on. You'd need a couple of days maybe to catch a horse that didn't want to be caught in a feild! Also you don't want to be putting any pressure on your horse at the moment you need to build a relationship first.Remember pressure can make you look like a preditor if done wrong causing your horse to flee. She needs to rely on you to mean what you say and put the pressure on at the RIGHT time and release at the RIGHT time, you must learn this. Then you can become Partners/leader. Your main problem is time, you'll need so much of it!! But it will be worth it in the endHorses react naturally, it's us that have to learn how to cause the reaction!It can take alot of time and practise. Good luck I hope you have found some of the advise useful...Roll on the lighter evenings... |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 15 Feb 2006 8:13:38 PM |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 10:54:07 PM
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Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.
I must point out that I have owned Tara for eight years now and it has only been in about the last 2 and a half years that she's started being naughty to catch. I don't think I could ever part with her.
I will make more time and not just concentrate on riding her. I have contacted Lewis Blackburn and he is coming out to see her on Sunday - yes this is going to cost me! but i think its worth it if it helps! I'll let you know how we get on. |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 11:53:14 PM
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Over the last 19 years I have tried all of the methods mentioned apart from a roundpen, which I don't have access to. I used to go to the field with a feed, feed her from a distance and leave, if I caught her I would groom and do nice stuff and leave. It got to the stage where I never rode in the summer for fear of upsetting her!!!
We eventually came to an arrangement....she would come when she was good and ready and if I wanted her badly enough I had to empty the field but as a 'newly grown up' 22 year old with companions and babies in her herd she has changed completely and is often 1st to be caught??? The only difference is more neddies for me to fuss over and I believe she didn't like the presure of being my "No 1 & only, all important"
If I could turn the clock back we'd be straight in a roundpen  or maybe this is a project for the future |
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 10:51:09 AM
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i would personally stay away from round pens. it is a very agresive position to be in where the horse is concerned. i have explained this on the other tread about barging and such. a horse needs to be given choice and a round pen gives him nothing but 2 direction in a circle and you. it's not a good option for 99.9% of horses and a really experienced person is needed to do it.
we somebody come and give a demo at my friend riding centre. it was horrendous and we have never had such bad feed back from a demo ever. however we did also have richard maxwell come and got rave reviews. he has stopped using nearly all the monty stuff and now does mainly parelli inspired methods. we had a good chat afterwards and he told me that he watches alot of the parelli demos and likes it better.
pat parelli uses open round pens that are bigger than the monty ones. but these are for teaching horses to be caught and not for a forsed join up. pat is extemely experianced and can spot all the signs straight away. i personally would recomend that people start from the basics and learn what they are doing first instead of thinking that a round pen will solve the problems.
edited to "remove names" - we dont want legal action for naming "someone!" as being horrendous - do we? |
suzanne walsh
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Edited by - NPA Arabians on 16 Feb 2006 11:35:30 AM |
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Evie
Platinum Member
England
3513 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 1:33:27 PM
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I am reading Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling's book 'Dancing with horses'. Also this man that is coming on Sunday says that he can work in a field and doesn't need to work in the round pen even though I told him that we have one at the yard. It will be very interesting to see what he does with Tara and what I can learn from him which will hopefully help me with her.
This morning I didn't even take any food in the field with me and i just walked around for about twenty minutes not looking at her, whenever I got within about 50 metres of her she just walked off though.
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Bristol |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 7:23:42 PM
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Hi Evie,
Really pleased you contacted Lewis. If you don't mind I'd be really interested to hear how you get on.
My e-mail is gill.frost@adur.gov.uk if you have time I'd love to know how it goes.
Thanks,
Gill |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 7:53:30 PM
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I think it's great you've got him to come out Well done and good luck. I hope you will let us all know how you get on. It would be great if you could get someone to video it for you as you will learn so much when you watch it back I got really hooked when I started to learn You'd never guess though!! Now I help others! I've got 4 huge shelves full of books video's, dvd's and folders I have created myself.I've even got my own lounge so my OH isn't surrounded by it allSo if you ever need any info............. |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 16 Feb 2006 8:00:55 PM |
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 4:12:07 PM
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sorry admin about the above never thought, just putting my point over about some peoples so called natral horsemanship compared to others.
debbie you are as bad as me. i could start my own libary with the amount of books i have. have you had much feed back about the chap you want to come over here?
evie, as debs says it would be great if you could video it or get someone else to. that way you get to watch it back to examine what he did with your mare. we don't always remember everything at the time, but this way you will have everything. it will also be a good tool if you work with her as well as him and then compare reactions on all parts.
good luck, hope he's some use and you get loads out of it. |
suzanne walsh
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 4:56:23 PM
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| Thats where these up to date mobile phones come in handy, complete with video,its wonderful rode my baby the other day and my husband videod him off my phone its great i could see exactly what he looked like! |
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