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Arachnid
Platinum Member
 England
1872 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 11:00:42 AM
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I am sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere, but does anyone have any experience of treeless saddles? My gelding has been rubbed by his Fieldhouse GP which was properly fitted by a saddler and I am thinking that I might have to look at alternatives (as well as getting saddler back to suggest what we might do about the new saddle I bought from him six months ago!) I have been on the 'Torsion' site to have a look. My thoughts are to get a treeless as well as sorting out the gp so that it DOES fit. In the meantime I have invested in a thick sheepskin numnah. My horse is (obviously) short in the back and I wondered whether the treeless ones were shorter? He is only in a 16.5 inch at the minute.
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SEZ
Gold Member
England
1101 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 11:37:00 AM
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Hi - I have had a Torsion for a few years and am very happy with it. It cost £450 from http://www.hue-hott.de/ and it fits both my Arab and The Tank (my Ardennes X). I would like to upgrade to a Freeform for the The Tank as I like the more traditional shape of it for shows etc. They also do a SB version for horses short in the back (like The Tank). I would urge you to go to http://www.nagtrader.co.uk/forum/ and ask about treeless there, as there are a collection of people who have used various treeless saddles for many years. You can organise a try before you buy with some treeless stockists. Good Luck. |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 11:38:57 AM
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Hi!
I have a treeless for my youngster. I didn't want to have to be continually worrying about fit while he's changing shape, and probably having to buy a new saddle frequently! I bought a Barefoot Cheyenne, and I think it's great, for what I need it for now. The first time I rode in it was the first time I rode Jack with a saddle, (very green backed), and he moved like it wasn't even there, and was more than happy. It is incredibly comfy too!
But - I find it quite difficult to position correctly - takes a while! And if the pad isn't exactly straight and level under it, the saddle goes skewiff!
The other thing I've noticed is that, on the very few occasions I've done rising trot, Jack can obviously feel the tightening of pressure between the stirrups across his back - he doesn't panic, because he's a star and he trusts me, but I don't like the fact that he can feel it at all. This is the area that a lot of people report pressure in..... Judith, who posts on here, can attest to pressure from a treeless!
I will keep riding Jack in his, though I am staying away from rising trot. I will probably get a treed saddle when he's grown up though, which is a shame, because I love the feel you get through the treeless, but I just do NOT want him to have pressure. Then again - this is new to me - would he feel the pressure in a treed saddle? Is he just reacting to is cos it's new, not because it's much worse than a treed saddle? New thread, me thinks!
On a size note - I think Jack could manage a 17" saddle, but you can get away with a longer treeless, as there is only pressure where you sit, so even if the back overlaps the loins a little, there's no pressure on there. Jack is in a size 1 Barefoot, which I think equates to up to a 17.5" treed - check the Horse and Harmony website if you want to be sure.
I do like the Cheyenne, and from research I did when looking, it seems to be a very well thought of, quality, good value saddle. |
Kelly
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 11:46:47 AM
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This is the result of a treeless (same both sides) & why I don't like them! |
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Caro23
Gold Member
United Kingdom
617 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 12:46:23 PM
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| I have a Freeform sb (short based) treeless saddle from Goldfinch for my arab mare and use it with the new HAF numnah which gives spine clearance. She has a short back but this saddle fits both of us. She is far more relaxed (used to be very tense in her the base of her neck in her treed saddle) and can now stretch and relax when doing flatwork. It is also substantially lighter which helps as there is not a lot of her! Her back has lifted and she has more muscle since we started using it but I am still slightly cautious about using a treeless on endurance rides of any distance. At the moment we have been hacking out for 3 hours as a trial and all is well. I would love to know what saddle would be ideal for us but everyone has such differing opinions. |
Caro
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
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Nicky F
Silver Member
England
289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 6:54:15 PM
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| Judith S: that's awful - what saddle caused this? I used to have a Bob Marshall Trail Rider treeless which was wonderful - soooo comfortable to ride in and Tanni loved it. Would buy another one without hesitation. |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 7:40:20 PM
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I think they are called Hoobee saddles, apparently they are made on a half tree, dont know if they would be any good?
What about Wintec saddles, the majority of them come with the interchangeable gullet system where you can measure the horse with their guide and then fit the correct gullet for you horse. They also have the Cair air system which provides more comfort for the horse by spreading the riders weight and reducing pressure points. |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 8:33:11 PM
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Just to add more confusion to the mix:
Personally, I would steer well clear of Wintecs with CAIR. Not only have there been a lot of bad reports about them, but just because you can adjust the gullet size, if the actual tree doesn't fit your horse, it won't be comfortable. The CAIR panels are drum tight, no give in them at all, and I found that they just bounced on my mare's back & made her sore.
I have gone in roundabouts, circles & back again with saddles, & spent hours & hours reading & researching. Arabs are often hard to fit as they are generally short backed but wide, & you need quite a small seat, which can end up concerntrating your weight in too small an area if you're not a tiny person. I used treeless saddles for over a year, initially the Freeform & then a Fhoenix (awful, awful!) Then I started doing some serious research, and now would be concerned about whether treeless distribute weight well. I think for a well balanced rider, over short periods of time, a treeless is fine, but like Caroline, I wouldn't be convinced about them for endurance.
The absolute best person I can recommend to you is Vicki from Better Saddles. She stocks a range of treed & treeless saddles & is a mine of information. She will bring different saddles for you to try, & can fit a tree to you & your horse if that's the route you choose. She also stocks Saddle Company saddles, which are excellent for Arabs (they are also fully adjustable by a trained fitter), and what I would choose for my next horse. She is also the only saddle fitter I would really trust.
If you'd like her contact details I'll e-mail you. Hope the leg is getting better  |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 9:24:39 PM
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Hi Gill,
I have just bought a nearly new wintec 2000 without cair and felt somewhat miffed with what I may have missed out on in the cair. Your bit of research has put my mind totally at ease. Freddie's first saddle was synthetic with just the normal flocking and he never had any problems with it. I was the problem in that when I took him on from my son, my butt didnt fit the saddle. I then bought leather (second hand) and although I have had it checked and reflocked annually, I never felt Freddie was 100% with it so was determined to return to synthetic. I would have been gutted to have the latest cair technology and experience your findings!!!. Its such a minefield, took me ages to sort myself, saddlers and their opinions vary so much too.
A girl on our yard uses a fully qualified reputable saddler, or so I thought until he fitted her rather fat horse with a brand new saddle stating that as she lost her weight, the saddle would fit!!! weight now gone and she has bought a special pad to go under it to stop the saddle from slipping, surely thats never right?? Also coincidentally, the saddle she was using for her previous connemara was fitted by the same guy onto her daughters very heavy cob and she has just been out and bought a sheepskin numnah to stop that slipping as her cob has now lost weight.
Whilst I turn myself inside out worrying about the damage I may be doing to my horse by an inkling that perhaps my saddle isnt the best fit, others will stick any old gismo under theirs to make it fit and the rest dont have their saddle checked from one year to the next???? Reality check please!!!!! |
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Jules-Apache
Silver Member
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 10:20:12 PM
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Hi,
I have a barefoot cheyenne too, which I think it fine for the odd hack or short schooling session, although I would hesitate to use this for something like endurance (even if I did have a suitable horse!). Saying that I do think that the barefoot has a much better weight distribution from the stirrups that many treeless saddles.
I've been told by reputable saddlers that my treed saddles fit fine, but both, my horses go so much better in the treeless.
And, being about to swap treed saddle number 3 for a new one, as horse as changed shape yet again, I like to have the treeless to use as a fallback.
But I do need a good treed saddle for the showring.
Jx
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 10:42:55 PM
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I have no experience of treeless saddles, but the concept worries me a bit.It seems to be taking a step backwards in intelligent saddle development. Saddles with a tree were developed for the sake of the horse, and I can understand how a tree does that---distributing weight so that there are no pressure points.Everyone says how comfortable treeless are, but the comfort of my horse is more important to me, and I don't see how there can NOT be pressure points. As for saying they are fine for short periods, but not endurance---well to me, either a saddle fits or doesn't, and if it can damage the horse a lot on a long ride, it can damage it a little on a short ride.
I may have been lucky, but both my Arabs,one rotund and Crabbet and the other 16hh and finer, have gone really well in Ideal dressage saddles---fitted by a master saddler, and I find them really comfy too. |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 10:54:29 PM
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Dear everyone
Thank you sooo much for all that. Judith, that picture is v scary. Gill, I may well need the number of your saddler if original one does not solve the problem. What many of you have said is that treeless are not good for long distance and although I dont do long distance, I think this is rather telling. I liked the idea of a Wintec too but we tried one out and didnt get on very well with it (I think we both found it a bit uncomfortable)Pity because I liked the weight (and the price!) I think I am going to see if the saddler recommends the Fieldhouse gp is reflocked/ changed for a different one once Spider is back in proper work and if this doesnt work its back to the drawing board.
Thanks again
Julia  |
West Sussex |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 06:11:20 AM
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I think that a well fitting treed saddle will still distribute weight better than a treeless, but as arabic points out, there aren't that many people who genuinely have theirs regularly checked, or even fitted in the first place. And then there's the whole 'finding a decent saddler' fiasco too! It's a minefield!! However, I did love my Freeform, and there have sucessful trials of it in 100 mile rides in th USA, so once more research comes to light about treeless in general, I wouldn't rule them out.
Julia, if your saddler recommends changing the Fieldhouse, the Saddle Co ones are synthetic underneath & leather on all the bits that can be seen, so smart enough to compete in but quite light. They are also reasonably priced, & can be adjusted by a trained fitter, so can always be tailored to your horse's changing shape.
Gill |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 08:30:27 AM
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I used to have a Torsion, which was I was fairly happy with up to 65km rides - I didn't feel that I could do much more than that with it and not cause some discomfort in the long run.
I then got Hebe, who is very short backed and came to me in a 16" saddle! Since my bottom requires a 17.5", I was in a bit of a pickle...
Luckily, a few endurance riders / arab owners nearby had already sussed it out for me and were all riding in Reactor Panel saddles, so that's the one I went for: the seat is 17.5" for me, standard panels for my horse, and a large weight bearing surface which moves with the horse and does not impend his movements.
Thumbs up for RR and since I bought a second hand one from Dean at Saddle Exchange, it did not cost the earth either.
I found the RR the best compromise between the freedom of the treeless and the security of the treed.
Good luck in finding your perfect saddle!
Marie. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 11:42:43 AM
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Rowan still bears those marks two years down the line! We had a brief fling with treeless because hes the wrong shape for my Ortho-Flex - I tried treeless as I didn't know what else to do - despite in the past seeing the damage done to an Arab mares back from pressure from the strap the stirrups were attached to - at an endurance ride - 50km - not a pretty sight! The treeless that caused the marks on Rowan was correctly fitted, had a good gullet & also I used a Skitto pad to give even more spine clearance - as you can see - Rowan still got pressure problems!!! If any one wants to know which treeless it was & also another one I tried that had pressure issues - email me: judith.striling1@btinternet.com I have also heard from other endurance riders that have tried treeless & all have had pressure issues! Moonfruit - I would be very interested to hear about your experiences - esp with the HM.
Now Rowan has a WOW - which seems to suit him very well - I am lucky in that the saddler I use is only 1/2 hr away & he was in on the design of the WOWs & know all about them - fitting etc - I take Rowan back to have the saddle checked - over last seasons endurance he went down three sizes as he got fitter - after his winter holiday - we had to put him back in the wide fitting - so that just shows how much a horse will change shape - thankfully the WOW is just so adjustable!!
The other saddles I use are the original flexi-panel saddles - Ortho-Flex - they self adjust & I've used them on many different horses for more than 10 years - never had a sore back, muscle wastage or white marks doing endurance or the many hours riding out over the hills! If anyones interested in them email me. At the moment I've got a lightweight small Cutback here that a friend wants to sell - she does Parelli & shes outgrown the saddle (two kiddies) - horse fine - rider not! Cheap saddle (for a 2nd hand Ortho-Flex!) if anyones looking!
Judith
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Edited by - Judith S on 21 Feb 2006 12:16:03 PM |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 1:45:42 PM
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Gill, do you mean the Freeform was bad, or the Fhoenix, or both? I quite fancied the freeform.....
I think that when Jack is more grown, I will look at Saddle Company Saddles. I like that they can be adjusted/retemplated, and the saddles themselves look lovely. And they seem good value - haven't heard a bad word either.
I would be sad to give up the feel I get in a treeless, but Jacks back is far more important to me! If I feel that a treeless isn't right for us, I will have to make another decision!! |
Kelly
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 2:18:24 PM
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Forgot to add - I also got put off the idea of the adjustable Wintecs, as I understand you can only adjust the front of the gullet, which restricts you and means that the back is still as narrow. Also read the same as Gill re the 'hardness' of the CAIR - I thought the idea was great at first, now I don't!
Anyway, the point of the post - there is a nice Saddle Company Saddle on ebay at the mo - brown GP version with suede seat and knee rolls. Either 16.5" or 17 - it states both!
I would be interested, if it was next year! |
Kelly
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 4:54:49 PM
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Judith, I'll e-mail you re the HM.
Kelly - the Freeform I loved! My friend uses a 17" Saddle Co on her very short backed 14hh Arab, and it fits well, so it possible to get those not-so-petite behinds into a saddle which also fits your Arab! |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 7:11:14 PM
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| oooohhhh I was so pleased with my Wintec but now you are all making me feel I've made a big mistake!! |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 8:57:31 PM
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| Moonfruit, please can you let me know of your problems with the Fhoenix? alison.mann@cwctv.net I was considering trying one soon. |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 9:22:14 PM
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Sandie, if the saddle is comfortable for Freddie (no discomfort, bucking or anything) and for you, it sounds like a reasonable one. A lot of the discussion here is connected with people who do very long distance and I know many endurance riders who have never-ending problems finding saddles that fit for 25 - 100 mile rides, which is very different from normal use.
It is a good thing for everyone to get their saddle fitted by a decent saddle fitter, to ensure your horse is happy in it, but if there's no evidence that it's not right, there's no need to feel unhappy about other people's views on the brand name! |
Roseanne |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 9:32:24 PM
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| Thanks Roseanne, For putting things into perspective, Im such a doubting Thomas - if I didnt have anything to worry about, I'd worry!! Can hardly put my hour ride in the same bracket as endurance - what a plonker!!!! |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 08:30:43 AM
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Roseanne
You are quite correct - endurance riding/long distance riding whatever you want to call it - does show up saddling problems - that happy hackers never encounter!
Judith |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 12:17:41 PM
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Thanks Judith,
I like that title, sums it up beautifully, may even have to change my user name!! ha ha
Sandie |
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