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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 01:13:50 AM
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Pangare and seal brown are not the same thing. Seal brown is caused by one of the agouti alleles (At) and has no effect on chestnuts. Pangare on the other hand alters both black and chestnut based horses, as demonstrated by this lovely Haflinger.
It should be noted that Haflingers are often mistaken for palominos, but it is pangare in combination with flaxen, not cream that lightens their coats.
Exmoors have Pangare too and MH is right that some heavy european Draught breeds also have it. The mealy muzzle of a horse with pangare is much paler than a seal brown horse has, but they both have the effect of the paler areas coming up from the undercarriage (normally up from the armpits and up onto the stifles/flanks) but these areas can be big or small. The Haflinger above in his winter coat has a very pale belly too
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 01:24:42 AM
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| Originally posted by TAE
Whilst there are several colour experts on here perhaps you could answer something that's been puzzling me.
I thought that chestnut was very recessive so only produced when you have two recessive chestnut genes, as in a chestnut bred to a chestnut can only produce chestnut.
but I keep seeing ads saying chestnut mares are black bred and can produce black.
I thought that being recessive any horse receiving a chestnut gene from its mother and another colour gene e.g. black brown or bay
from its sire would be that other colour, so surely any chestnut mare could produce black. Or is the black gene recessive to chestnut?
I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks Tara.
You are right, chestnut is recessive to black and a horse needs two chestnut genes to *look* chestnut.
This means that horses can carry chestnut, so if they have one black and one chestnut gene, they could have a chestnut foal if the other parent also passed on chestnut to the foal. this is why you can have surprise chestnut foals.
RE breeding black from chestnuts, you can breed a homozygous black to a chestnut and know that 100% of the time the foals will be black as each will inherit one chestnut gene and one black gene, so they will *look* black.
However, chestnuts can carry genes that don't alter chestnut pigment (eg Agouti) butv do alter black pigment. If you want to breed black horses, you don't want agouti or your foals will be bay, brown or wild bay (depending on which version of agouti is involved).
So I always assumed that the 'will breed black' means that the chestnut horse doesn't carry any genes that alter black pigment. |
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TAE
Bronze Member
232 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 08:37:51 AM
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Thanks Faracat.
So Bay is not a specific colour gene but black diluted by the agouti gene ( which does not affect chestnut so can be carried secretly).
If I can ever afford to breed from my boy it could be interesting then as he and his parents are grey, but his dad produces chestnut so he could carry the chestnut gene and produce chestnut, his base colour is bay (from his mother )so he must carry the black gene and agouti gene, so could produce black or bay, and of course being grey he has at least one grey gene so could produce grey (though he is becoming so heavily fleabitten he changes colour ever time he moults).
It seems as if by using a chestnut mare without the agouti gene I could get a whole range of colours. |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 09:34:55 AM
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There isn't a gene called 'bay' but you are right that the agouti gene does cause bay coloured horses by restricting the black pigment to the points.
Agouti has three versions A = bay, At = (seal) brown and A+ = wild bay.
I have seen wild bay arabians.
Ignore the boots. You can see that unlike a standard bay, the wild bay has much less black on the legs. It is restricted to the fetlocks and below, with just a touch on the knees and hocks. Go back to look at the bay horse on page 2 of this thread and see just how black his legs are when compared with this arab.
With greys, if they have one grey gene, it's 50% odds for then having a non grey foal if the other parent isn't grey. If the grey has two grey genes, then it's going to always have grey foals even if the other parent isn't grey. |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 11:11:44 AM
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Arabi is a very similar colour to the Arab above and he also has a dorsal stripe hence the nick name of donkey boy |
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Edited by - pinkvboots on 05 Oct 2014 11:12:10 AM |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
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TAE
Bronze Member
232 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 4:21:06 PM
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Thanks Faracat.
As a foal Li's colouring was closest to the wild bay. I guess I'd be happy whatever the colour so long as it inherits his temperament, but it would be nice to have a colour that doesn't stain so easily. Though with the increasing number of fleabites he's working his way back to that anyway. |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 08:54:54 AM
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Found this very interesting as I have just brought a cremello mare can't see any making and checked both sire and dam out to make sure she wasn't grey! Looking at her passport I think she is a Sabino welsh after reading this. She has 4 above knee white legs with the back going up to the addomin, large white blaze, mussel and jaw going back to her neck line, blue eyes.
Hopeing to breed her next year. |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 12:15:14 PM
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| Glo you can always have her tested to make sure she will not produce grey. I once had a colt who was cremello but when tested he was carrying grey so foals would grey out, had him cut and he has a lovely home as a ridden pony. I haven,t bred so far from my chestnut sabino as in pallies they do not seem to like the sabino ones as they do not do well in the pally classes. I like the sabino,s myself |
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Sabino Arabians
