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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 3:50:09 PM
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| No, as the maximum sabino doesn't carry cream. Palomino is chestnut plus one copy of cream. |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 11:41:04 PM
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My buckskin pony had a palomino welsh dam and a bay tb sire (photo by Radfoto) |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 09:45:19 AM
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I thought that I should explain the difference between sabino and cream a bit more as it might be helpful.
If you look at Abida and a cremello (chestnut plus two copies of cream), you can see that they look very, very similar.
Abida (sabino)
Cremello
They both have pink skin and very pale fur. You can see how people could imagine that they are the same colour.
Genetically they have some differences though.
First i want to show a photo of Abida from when she was a foal, this will help to show the differences.
Abida as a foal.
Here is a cremello foal.
You can see how Abida had a small amount of chestnut fur when she was born which has now been replaced with white fur. How could that happen? If we look at this photo of her with her Dam, you can see that her Dam is grey.
So it is likely that Abida inherited grey from her dam and the small amount of chestnut that she did have, has now greyed out. Sabinos can also get more white hairs as they change from their foal coats to their adult coats, so this could have removed her last bits of chestnut, but grey is the most likely cause.
Sabino is a gene that causes patches of white fur with pink skin underneath. It can also cause roaning/white flecks (not to be confused with a true dark headed Roan) in the coat. Many horses with white socks and markings on their head have sabino. It is because they have sabino that they have white markings. So you could say that Abida's white 'sock' is so big that it actually covered nearly all of her body. Imagine that you start with a chestnut horse (as Abida is genetically chestnut) and then you have some white paint and you paint her to match her foal photo. The paint covers the chestnut up.
Cream is a dilution gene. It is semi dominant, which means that one copy has a mild effect but two copies have a strong effect. So with a cremello the chestnut isn't covered it is DILUTED. Imagine that you washed a chestnut horse and some of the 'dye' ran out and you were left with a palomino, you washed it again and more 'dye' ran out, so now you have a cremello.
Another thing to bear in mind when looking at colours is the breed of the horse. Some breeds only have certain colours. We know that Abida is a purebred arabian. Cream is not in the arab beed, so Abida can't have it. For my example photos I have chosen Welsh ponies as the Welsh cobs/ponies have cream in the breed. This is why palomino/buckskin/smoky black/cremello/perlino/smoky cream 'arabs' are always partbred, even if they are 99% arab, that 1% is where the cream came from. |
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Edited by - Faracat on 02 Oct 2014 09:49:01 AM |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 09:54:29 AM
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Sorry I can't get two of the photos to work.
Here are a couple of alternatives.
Abida as a foal with a tiny bit of her dam in the background, hopefully you can see that the dam is grey from this (the other photo was better).
Abida grown up.
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 12:40:33 PM
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| Thank you Faracat, that is so interesting and what an excellent explanation! |
East Yorkshire |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 1:41:20 PM
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| Thanks Faracat its so interesting your so clever you know so much about colour, sorry got another one how do you get a cremelo then ? |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 1:47:47 PM
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| I think looking at that site I want a silver dapple buckskin, what a lovely colour quite rare I would imagine though, and looking at brown and dark bay horses I always thought my mare was dark bay but I think she is brown as she gets lighter on the flanks and muzzle. |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 6:49:52 PM
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RE (seal) brown, it's one of the most commonly misidentified colours. It didn't help that when I was a child, I was incorrectly told that you don't get brown horses. I'm sure that I'm not alone with this. Many 'dark bays' are really seal brown and I've also seen ads for black horses that are really very dark seal browns. It is easier to tell seal browns when they are in their winter coats as they have more contrast. A nice arabian example of a seal brown is Afri Khawn, but most photos of him show him with his muzzle shaved, so his lovely brown fur on that area is gone. In this photo you can see his brown armpit giving away the fact that he's brown despite the shaved muzzle.
Silver dapple gives attractive colours. It only works on black pigment, so it is carried by chestnuts (it doesn't alter how their coats look). In the UK the colour is usually seen in Gypsy cobs but it is more common in american breeds (Rocky Mountains, American Miniatures etc...). I have seen a couple advertised that were incorrectly called flaxen liver chestnuts, but you could see the darkening of the points on the legs and ears giving away that the horses weren't chestnut.
Going back to cremellos, you need a horse with two chestnut genes so that it is a chestnut, plus two copies of cream to give the double diluting effect. |
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stirling321
Silver Member
327 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 7:13:30 PM
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Abida is beautiful ... how strange seeing a maximum sabino with the grey gene giving the illusion of a cremello pure arab  |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 8:35:01 PM
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| Ah, I always thought dark bay was my favourite colour, but now I realise it is seal brown! I love the contrast of the rich dark chocolate coat and lighter brown muzzle, especially good with white socks and some white on the face. Afri Khawn is lush! |
East Yorkshire |
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garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 8:47:14 PM
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I find the genetics of colour fascinating!
Black? horse with auburn highlights in feathers? Is he black? Sam at Addington - courtesy of E.S. Photography.
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 9:37:41 PM
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Liz - I like seal browns too as I used to have a mare that colour who was really, really sweet tempered, so the colour always reminds me of her.
Garnet - I can't see any hint of seal brown in that photo. It would be nice to see a head shot without the blinkers. The two most likely reasons for black horses having 'copper highlights' are sun bleaching or a lack of copper in the diet (which is often low in UK grazing).
ETA - Callisto, I wanted to say how beautiful your buckskin is but I forgot earlier. Sorry. |
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Edited by - Faracat on 02 Oct 2014 9:39:34 PM |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 10:07:05 PM
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So, sorry to hijack this thread, but it is SO interesting ...
I am pretty sure our Jack is bay because he's too light to be seal brown, but he does have that lighter brown nose, girth and flank area. In summer he goes a bit dapple, although it doesn't show very well in the pic. The summer picture was taken a couple of years ago and I'd forgotten how fat he was then 
He is bay isn't he? |
East Yorkshire |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 10:37:30 PM
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He's certainly a pale one, but I'm leaning towards him being brown rather than bay as he has the brown markings, just with a paler contrasting body colour.
Compare Jack with this bay.
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 06:44:21 AM
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Thanks Faracat, I've learned something new. I've always wondered why Jack has those lighter coloured areas.
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East Yorkshire |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 11:38:16 AM
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| It could be Sooty causing the 'dark paint effect.' I believe it was named sooty because it looks like someone has put soot on the horse. ;) |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 12:30:30 PM
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I wondered if that was it, Faracat - it is definitely Sooty looking  |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 2:19:07 PM
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| Great way of putting it MinHe and easy to remember. Will Sabino always be passed on when breeding from one, i have a chestnut with sabino markings welsh sec b mare and am thinking about covering her at some point in the next few years with my cremello sec b stallion, i know i will get a palomino but will the sabino markings pass on ? |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 3:30:57 PM
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My mare looks the same as Afri Kawn in the summer so she is brown and just looking on her passport (its in German) it says Dunkelbraun so am of to google but it sounds like brown.
I thought it was dark brown and it is so yes she is brown and not dark bay. |
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Edited by - pinkvboots on 03 Oct 2014 3:34:29 PM |
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TAE
Bronze Member
232 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 6:31:13 PM
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Whilst there are several colour experts on here perhaps you could answer something that's been puzzling me.
I thought that chestnut was very recessive so only produced when you have two recessive chestnut genes, as in a chestnut bred to a chestnut can only produce chestnut.
but I keep seeing ads saying chestnut mares are black bred and can produce black.
I thought that being recessive any horse receiving a chestnut gene from its mother and another colour gene e.g. black brown or bay
from its sire would be that other colour, so surely any chestnut mare could produce black. Or is the black gene recessive to chestnut?
I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks Tara.
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Topic |
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Sabino Arabians
