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bagface
Bronze Member
Wales
99 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 3:41:32 PM
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Hey everyone,
Im desperately trying to trace my horse that went on loan to Scotland in 2010 as I was in dire straights personally and needed to get my horses out on loan to keep them safe. My beloved boy Brujo has since been taken into hiding by his loaner who refuses to give him back and has ceased contact. She has moved since the start of the loan and I have no contact details for her, other than facebook and she has ignored my requests for an address for her or Brujo. His last known whereabouts were he was being stabled in or near neilston on a yard called capelli lodge, she has since taken him into hiding and I have no idea where he is. I haven't slept since the beginning of this nightmare and just want my boy home safe and sound. He is a bright bay 15.2 hh 11 yo Hispano arabe gelding and is very distinctive being bright bay with a
small star and snip, 2 hind socks and small belly splash on his nearside. Pls pls can all our Scottish members keep their eyes peeled and if you hear of anything pls let me
know. I'm desperate and sick with worry and just want my boy back. I've tried to post a pic but don't have flickr
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 4:13:19 PM
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| Stupid question, but cant the police help? Presume you have contacted them? |
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SuziQ
Gold Member
England
922 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 4:51:22 PM
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How awful for you Bagface, do you have a copy of the loan agreement? Was it filed with anyone eg AHS
I am guessing the loaner has the passport since this is supposed to stay with the horse. I wish you luck tracing your boy an I hope that maybe the police can help as he is effectively now Stolen. |
Everyone in my life brings me happiness, some by arriving others by leaving. |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 5:21:30 PM
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| Aah he looks lovely, at least now you have a photo up people can keep a look out for him...good luck |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 6:30:07 PM
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| How about putting him on Facebook, i know a lot of people don,t like FB but its great for getting their picture shared with details and many animals have been found because of it, this must be very upsetting for you, will keep my fingers crossed for you that somebody knows him. |
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scooter1
Bronze Member
Wales
94 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 6:42:07 PM
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I am sorry to hear this nat. hope you find him soon he is a lovely boy.where about in Scotland did she live
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 7:11:08 PM
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If you haven't already done so, contact MHOL straight away. They have delt with this many times (they helped get Tim the arab returned to his owner) and know what steps to take to get your horse back.
http://missinghorsesonloan.webs.com/ |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 7:54:08 PM
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| I'm in Scotland, but he doesn't look familiar :( Why don't you get in touch with The Scottish Regional Group Arab Horse Supporters either via their website or on FB and give them the details.....someone in Scotland must know where he is. Bay arabs are not common and he would stand out. Good luck in finding him. |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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zaminda1
Bronze Member
177 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 8:56:16 PM
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| I'd try local FB groups too. A person on here whose horse was missing on loan I traced very quickly as the woman who she had loaned the horse to had a history of selling horses which didn't belong to her, and was local to me. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 9:09:51 PM
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I am so sad for you.....
But when we put out neds on loan...unless we keep a VERY close check, with regular visits etc....
We are at the mercy really of the "loaners" to be true to their word etc......
Most loaners are totally genuine....
But many are not so it seems :(
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 9:48:22 PM
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Hi Nat, glad that your keeping your spirits up.
Ref Debs question about the Police: Horse Loan theft by the person borrowing the horse is one of these areas where the police sit on the fence struggling to work out when the case ceases to be a Civil matter and switches to full blown theft. Under the Theft Act of 1968; theft is defined as when someone intends to permanently deprive a person of their property.
At present the English police interpretation is to wait until the horse has been sold or slaughtered by the borrower! Fat lot of good to the owner or the horse in the latter case.
In Scotland where Brujo has been moved into hiding, there is a slightly more flexible stance in that proof that it is the borrowers "intent" to deprive the owner of the horse is evidence of theft!
Which brings us to the SuziQ comment about contract.
Written contracts are most certainly the best thing to put in place but only in that they speed the civil court proceedings... no darn good if the thieving scum have slaughtered the horse!
If there is no standard contract but a verbal one; it is still a binding contract in law but more often than not supported by incidental evidence of communications in writing or witnessed arrangements, prove of some form of regular contact between owner and other party/horse as well as lack of evidence from the other side of anything other than a loan arrangement. The result may be a bit more protracted for the Civil Legal system to sort out but sure as anything actions by a party deliberately trying to commit the crime of wrongful deprivation of the horse from its legal owner will be clearly seem and justice served.
If the party carrying out this action is deliberately stopping the legal process of civil action, because she has denied the owner details of her whereabouts as well as those of the horse, what she thinks is being clever in fact has provided supporting evidence of intent to obstruct the course of justice. Courts have a saying about seeking justice with clean hands.
It is however back to that old chestnut of getting the police to make up their minds about what point of time they will decide to act.
Unfortunately with the horse deliberately taken into hiding there is now a very real concern for the horses welfare (been in same situation with a beautiful mare of mine who when eventually retrieved was in a really bad way) hence the need for the real horse people who do care about animal welfare and protecting the rights of ownership to help trace this horse as quickly as possible and for it to be returned to its legal owner or if necessary put in protective care away from the borrower until the Civil Courts are able to adjudicate.
In the UK the numbers of horses going out on loan seems to be on the increase and equally there are more unscrupulous nasty people out there waiting to take advantage for their own profit. Fulcrumtv have for the last year been putting together a documentary dealing with these sorts of cases and providing legal advice to help owners. Alongside this the Horse Watch and Horses Missing on Loan organisation have been pressuring for more proactive police involvement and prosecutions before the horses end up dead. All these organisations are helping owners to take steps to safely trace their horses and legally deal with the would be loan horse theft.
Nat, apart from Fulcrumtv looking at your case, my contact in the British Equestrian Federation is now planning on working with Fulcrumtv. The BEF recognise there is a real problem here involving a rising crime of theft of horses and slaughter of horses on loan through the perversion of justice by these perpetrators using loop holes in the legal system regarding the Theft Act and the Civil Law status of loan situations.
My BEF contact (I’ll pass you her full details) has asked for copy of all the details of your case and how it progresses so they can look at the potential of future proactive co-ordinated data basis etc to protect both horses and owners.
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 9:56:32 PM
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| God, thought you would get more support than that... |
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Gail
Gold Member
993 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 10:07:16 PM
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That is awful you must feel very worried. I'm in Scotland but haven't seen him. I've never heard of the yard he was at in Neilston. I agree about contacting the Scottish Arab group, not any people come on here now. Facebook with all it's faults can be really useful.
There are not that many Arabs about compared to other breeds so someone will know the horse if everyone shares it. There are about 30 horses on my yard and only 2 Arabs, my boys.
Worth a try, lovely photo in summer coat and he will be in summer coat now.
Fingers crossed,
Gail x |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 10:45:41 PM
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While the drive behind desperate hunt to retrieve Brujo is the devastatingly emotional distress to Nat, and to any owner that this happens to; we sould not loose sight of the sole incentive behind the perpitrator of this kind of crime.
Brujo's loan while necessary for Nat while going through a traumatic event that meant for the short term she could not keep her horse with her, at the other end provided the loanee with a competition horse of the calibre she could never afford to purchase for her self. Instead of savouring her fortune and appreciating the unique oppertunity she was given and being grateful for that, the motivation for any person to deprive someone of their legal property is greed.
A sports horse of Brujo's calibre is valued between £5,500 to £8,000 possibly more, and on top of that his saddle and bridle are also highly saleable commodities. A nice days requisitioning! So waste no time wondering at the mental state of mind or reasoning; make no mistake there is only a financial agenda when someone endeavours to deprive the owner of their horse. |
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Vik1
Platinum Member
1711 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 11:29:29 PM
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Neilston's not too far from me..about a half hr drive. Pure breds arent popular in this area so if he was to go to a show (locally anyway) he would stick out like a sore thumb.
What kind of thing does the loaner do with him? dressage? sj? Ill keep my eyes peeled for him. There are 2 main centres that he is mostly to compete at if he is still in this area. |
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 08:36:36 AM
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So sorry to hear this, it must be devastating for the owner, I hope she finds him soon.
Not sure I agree with "make no mistake there is only a financial agenda when someone endeavours to deprive the owner of their horse." I' m sure in these cases it is often the case; but I doubt its the only reason someone would do that. |
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Sahir
Gold Member
England
847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 11:53:57 AM
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I am very sorry to hear this - you must be beside yourself with worry. Whilst I agree with most of what other people have said you should be aware that dishonest people, devious enough to move your horse without advising you as well as not responding to your messages are quite likely to go to extraordinary lengths to disguise YOUR horse if they intend taking him anywhere. As Pintoarabian has stated the splash mark will clearly identify him, but it's highly likely that the person who has him in hiding will probably use hair die to disguise it  and quite possibly his small star too. I really do hope he's found quickly & you have him back home with you - where he deserves to be. Good Luck & keep us informed but remember the "loaner" of your horse may be reading this thread too - so choose your words carefully. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 2:19:26 PM
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| Post a picture on facebook I will share it on my page and I am sure all Arabian owners in Scotland will share it too. |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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TC
Gold Member
Scotland
621 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 3:45:38 PM
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I'm also in Scotland. Central so will keep lookout. Post on Facebook Tracie Costello and me and all my horsey friends will share.
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maromito
Bronze Member
Wales
94 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 4:15:40 PM
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| This woman who as taken Brujo into hiding needs to be aware that many people are keeping an eye out for him and he WILL be returned to his rightful owner Natalie and now hes on facebook it has widened the search ,if she is reading this she should also know that the horse world is a small world when it comes to stolen horses and the Hispano Arabe world is even smaller so do the right thing NOW and return Brujo you will not be able to hold your head ever again with honest horse people and you deserve the vilification that is going to come your way way |
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Pandora
Bronze Member
77 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 5:37:55 PM
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The gut wrench for any victim of crimes like this is contemplation of the long and costly protracted dealings with lawyers. In most cases the owner loaning the horse is going through some sort of financial change of situation and is trying to bring their horse home because they are on the recovery and stabilising their home life but more often than not at a very much reduced level of income.
In over 40 years of owning horses the predominant reason for horse owners to contact me seeking to loan out a horse is due to impending divorce and the desire to endeavour to keep their beloved animals while also needing space and time to sort out new lives for themselves and children.
So by definition the owner is vulnerable in many senses and easy prey for calculating opportunists. It is not a given that every potential loan home has from the getgo or at anytime an intent to deprive an owner of the horse. There are many genuine, untroubled happy horse loan scenarios. There are also a few genuine cases of abandonment or simply the owner was not interested enough to maintain contact and retrieve their horse and cases where borrower has genuinely in the fullness of time become the owner.
Unfortunately in some cases there are scammers who from the start are making their living borrowing horses to sell on, (sadly too late for the owner the sale is to a slaughter house!). The other type of deviant somewhere in the course of the loan becomes an opportunist and arrogant enough to think they can at some point bully the owner into believing they have no right to the return of their horse.
The individual making a business of borrowing horse to deliberately deprive the owner for good is a straight forward thief; it’s a business to them. It is often a swift cold blooded grab for a horse to quickly dispose of with little if any relations with the owner.
The one off opportunist is more callous. At some point they made a conscious choice to take advantage of a vulnerable person who during the course of the loan had become a ‘friend’. The development of the friendship is a genuine social course over the periods of contact and discussion with the owner about the welfare of the horse and the progress of the owner’s life to stabilise their home ready to retrieve the horse. The person who then decides they could manipulate the vulnerability of another human being who through time has come to implicitly trust them as a friend is something else altogether!
These social pariah will twist and turn whatever knowledge they have gleaned about the vulnerable ‘friend’ to justify their belief that they have every right to deprive them of their horse. It is not a spur of the moment knee jerk reaction to the owner notice that the loan period has expired. They have spent time plotting their twisted constructs convincing themselves they have more right to ownership of the horse than the vulnerable sap they perceive the owner to be. They’ll concoct a catalogue of conflicting stories and ploys to bully the owner with, justifying their intent to deprive the owner of their property. Unfortunately as with any lie the reality is that no matter how much they convince themselves they can corrupt the truth and the law, there is always somewhere the evidence proving the loan and showing the lies.
The main reason these morally corrupt individuals think they can get away with crime is because they see you the owner as a pathetic hopeless mess who hasn’t got the backbone or finances to fight the barrage of illogical lies they throw out. In some cases they pull it off; after all collapsing into a stunned heap of distress when faced with the sudden unexpected reversal of what had been to all intents and purposes a reasonable loan and friendship is a natural response. It can also seem after whatever battle the owner has just fought through to put their lives back on track that suddenly the rug of their happy future has been ripped away and facing yet another battle is just too daunting.
Along with the nightmare of torturing yourself as to how this impasse has come about and frustration at the blaring insanity of the other parties behaviour, comes the crumbling awareness that suddenly you could be dealing with horrendous legal costs which might potentially outweigh the financial value of your horse and cripple your finances to start on a new life.
Mostly the barrier is in your head and the bullying perpetrator of all this is counting on your fear to make you walk away abandoning your rights to your horse.
All the owner needs to do is to logically collate all the facts, every scrap of proof of the loan and its progress, every step of the way and sort it’s time line. Most lawyers give you an initial free hour advice and can check through your evidence and status of ownership. Horse Watch and Horses Missing on Loan can give you advice to help start your case. You can, when ready have a lawyer deal with it all, when written communication between you and the other person comes to deadlock or breaks down.
When your evidence is sorted you can also take action yourself through the Small Claims Court Online
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/when-should-i-use-the-small-claims-court-/
or for cases in Scotland
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims
and http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/ordinary-cause
a lot less stressful.
Of course any Civil Legal action requires an address for the true place of residence of both parties for the serving of either your lawyer’s letters or the Court Notice. Both parties also if the borrower’s claim was genuine should have details of the horse’s whereabouts for the evidence.
Proof of pudding is when the perpetrator decides to do a runner with the horse and endeavours to prevent the legal system operating to establish the true ownership of the horse. The owner likewise, even knowing where the horse is on loan cannot without proof of ownership simply ‘lift’ the horse when there is a legal dispute.
Horse Missing Stolen from Loan is another ball game: as said what clearer intent to deprive owner and pervert the course of justice!
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 6:37:20 PM
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| Have you put the photo on Facebook , if so where so we can all share it, we may need to add you as friend to share photo but the more its seen the better. |
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Ari
Platinum Member
1657 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 7:40:23 PM
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What a nightmare you must be so worried. I agree with earlier posts, publicity must help and he could be anywhere in UK so get the word out. Horse community aren't good at keeping secrets, somebody somewhere knows of him and hopefully will be in touch.
I wish you all the very best |
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Sahir
Gold Member
England
847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 8:02:26 PM
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Bagface - I have sent you a PM, read it asap & hopefully reply 
Elaine. |
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Lucytoo
Bronze Member
Scotland
174 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 8:07:28 PM
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Im in Scotland, although not near where your boy was, im also on the Scottish Arab Group committee, its a very small horsey world and im sure he will soon be found if the word is spread, you could put some info on our Facebook page. Scottish Regional Group of Arabian Horse Supporters.
Hope you have some good news very soon.
L.x |
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Horse on loan missing
