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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 4:48:02 PM
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I believe the figures are that 1 in 4 people will suffer at sometime in their lifetime from mental health issues. Does this mean then that they are free to neglect their duties to others and can blame everything on their mental health issues? No, in my book it damn well does not. Many , many people struggle on daily with mental and physical health issues, but most do not expect to be excused of their responsibilities in life. I accept that for everyone of us ourcircumstances can change for the worse, life is not a bed of roses all the way, but we have to deal with what life throws at us in a mature and responsible way, and if we have another living being, be it animal or human that depends on us for all it's needs in life, then these needs HAVE to be addressed before our own. There are very few people who are so clinically depressed that they can't face up to these responsibilities, and loathe as I am to judge people without knowing them, the Skippers do not appear to fit this category. They have had a fair trial and been found guilty, I cannot bring myself to have any sympathy for them. Yes ok, I may not know the full facts, but having been on a jury for 4weeks a couple of years ago I do know that the jury would have had the FULL facts to enable them to reach their verdict.
Lesley, you told us all months ago through this forum that the whole story was not known and that we would all understand better once the case came to court. Well I have to say that I for one have no clearer understanding of WHY you allowed this to happen to your lovely horses. Poor poor Nivalis, your friend for virtually his whole life, how could you bear to see him in such great pain each and every day. I really do fail to see why we should any of us have any sympathy for you or your husband in this case, any more than we did in the notorious Jamie Gray and Spindle farm case. You were better known than he was before his case was brought but that does not make your abuse of those horses any less cruel.
I was the owner of two of your books. They are now sitting in our recycling bin waiting for the next collection. I would never be able to look through them again and look at pictures of Nivalis knowing how he would suffer in the future. I don't know who the other horses were but at least their suffering is over thank God. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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jackiedo
Gold Member
England
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 5:30:33 PM
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I think that my point is being missed entirely.
I was hoping we could learn from this and be able to respond accordingly. |
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 5:49:32 PM
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Simpilistic - yes a spade is a spade.
They have caused cruelty to horses and deaths. FACT!
Ive crawled outside on my hands and knees with painful injuries, Ive dragged myself out of bed with flu, vomiting as the cold air choked me. I always managed to throw some hay, defrost water and throw in some clean straw, deep litter is not so bad in times of need.
If this is all to do with financial problems then it seems they have had enough time to re-home horses.
Im also very well aware about mental health problems but it doesnt happen over night to them both.
Seems in some cases mental health issues is a bit of an old chestnut!
Its not right on a forum to express a lot of I would like to say, I just hope the remaining animals find loving happy homes.
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 5:54:44 PM
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What are we supposed to learn Jackiedo?
That people can pretend to be something they're not? Hide behind pretty words. Be too mentally I'll to muck out but still be capable of posting on an Internet forum and writing their magnum opus? That a bout of flu and inability to muckmout can last from -20 temperatures in December until a horse is euthanazed in June?
I'm struggling to learn anything.
As for those who say "there but for the grace of god go I" erm NO I may get depressed or made redundant or life deal me a crippling blow but my horses will be cared for. My husband, family and friends would not allow otherwise. If I had no friends or family my farrier comes every 5 weeks, he would have no problem telling me what to do! My vet is a regular visitor etc etc
I would never be afraid to ask for help, here or elsewhere but then I don't care what others say about or think of me when it comes to caring for my animals. |
Heléna
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 6:02:29 PM
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| BUT......their mental issues card seemed to have been played late. Intially the horses HAD BEEN neglected, no question however you read it....they had flu, it was -20 and they couldn't muck out. Then they are found guilty and their mental state is questioned. It's all too convenient but sadly not for the horses. If you are that ill then don't have them, end of, you are not fit. |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 6:14:18 PM
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| Exactly Delyth - the plea was not "guilty with mitigating circumstances". |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 6:14:49 PM
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Annette - fantastic post 
Justine - ditto....as anybody else with the responsibility involved in caring for horses would also acknowledge - if you have no other help you HAVE to do it yourself !! It doesn't matter how ill you are, you do it. I've put off major surgery for years because it would leave me off my feet for 6 weeks, and I couldn't ask someone else to take care of them for that long. Likewise, I've suffered from depression for over 20 years - no matter how black things have been my horses have always been taken care of, in fact at times I have kept going purely because I knew they needed me.
Depression can be an all consuming thing that distorts your rational perspective on life - but there is help out there, and if you have responsibilities you owe it to them to get that help to enable you to function. The problems with these poor horses did not happen overnight - some times people might be guilty of allowing an animal to continue a short time longer than they should because it is such a tough decision to make - but to allow your animals to suffer like this for months....??!!! Come on !! This is just despicable, particularly coming from someone who knows better 
Maybe James Grey was suffering from depression too....will that make HIS behaviour forgivable ? 
NB - if depression really was a factor - writing a book would be the last thing she felt like doing !!! |
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jackiedo
Gold Member
England
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 7:54:03 PM
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we are supposed to learn that however high a profile people have things can go wrong. We are supposed to be a little proactive and offer help. If help is not welcomed. or people are clearly deluded we are supposed to step in before thinngs get this far. And YES... We are supposed to be more aware of MH issues and how this can affect people.
When My husband was ill, one of the times he did not accept that his military career was over. HE WAS suffering from Delusions.
He set off to troublespots around the world to sort them out himself
Twice he was brought back from Israel trying to resolve the Palestinian crisis. Once he took the roof off a relatives house in order for him to be taken out by helicopter.
Once he set off to the Pakistan Afghanistan border convinced he could find Bin Laden
Once he set off to join the French foreign legion and got to Marseilles before he had a moment of clarity
This was his delusion.... his career had been over some time ago. BUT to him it was very real at the time. I believe that the accused had a very real belief that they could cure laminitis this way. I am NOT excusing this - just saying can we not read the signals before something else has to suffer?
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Vik1
Platinum Member
1711 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 8:22:04 PM
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'if they had any rational real friends who were visitors, they could have stepped in before it got so bad.'
exactly what my point was! Where were they?! I find it hard to believe they never had visitors leading up to it. Yes they neglected their horses for whatever reason they did but I also point the finger at friends/family who didnt intervene before it got so bad.
I understand if they did try and this pair pushed them away refusing to accept that anything was wrong as some people are genuinely deluded even when they do know better. If they did push them away then the friends/family should of taken it a step further and been more blunt about it. Why didnt they?! |
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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 9:15:11 PM
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Jackiedo I am really sorry that you and your husband had to go through this awful spell in his life, and I sincerely hope that he has come through it now. However, there is no suggestion that the Skippers were BOTH suffering from a crippling form of depression that would have MAYBE absolved them from some of the blame in this sad case. I care not whether the parties involved in cruelty cases are high or low profile, the end result for the horses is the same whatever the person's name. This couple appear not to have asked for help from anyone, I don't know why, most likely their pride got in the way.
I have in the recent past suffered from depression myself, so I do have SOME understanding of it, but you do just have to get on with everyday life, however hard it seems at the time and not wallow in your own misery. I had to take care of 2 very disabled parents in their late eighties, hold down a full time job and take care of the horses as well and I can honestly say at no time did either my parents or horses ever experience neglect through me being depressed. They were my priorty, and nothing would have got in the way of me caring for them even though at times I was so mentally and physically exhausted that it would have been the easiest thing in the world to give in. My life has turned around now, and although sadly my parents have passed on, the blackdog days have for the most part left me. At the age of 60 my horses are providing me with so much happiness, I am just so glad that I had the mindset to keep going when it would at times have been so so easy to rollover and give up. At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own actions and have to accept the consequences of those actions. |
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Sahir
Gold Member
England
847 Posts |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 07:57:53 AM
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They were found guilty of neglect and the horses were undoubtedly neglected. I don't think anyone on here is trying to excuse or defend them for that. I believe some people on here are trying to understand the why of the crime, to learn and to share that learning with this close knit community. I wish I could be more positive, but humans just don't learn and more often don't WANT to learn. But at least YOU learn trying! 
Fee
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 09:32:23 AM
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"I believe some people on here are trying to understand the why of the crime, to learn and to share that learning with this close knit community"
That's probably because you have actually read and tried understand the points made. It is an unnatural pattern of behaviour that previously kind people should change so dramatically.
The sometimes direct and sometimes subtle attempts to discredit these views, by implying that these views make the authors of them are less horrified by the plight and suffering of these horses, speaks for itself, in volumes.
Some people just accept things - 'Yer, they are what they are' and others have more enquiring minds "Now how on earth did that happen".
Some people have enquiring minds, some people just follow a straight line of thought. Some people take things on face value, some people just have to know more, and why.
Do not continue to misunderstand, there is a substantial different between an excuse and a cause.
•"If you prove the cause, you at once prove the effect; and conversely nothing can exist without its cause."
(Aristotle, Rhetoric)
Anyway, you would have to be mad not to ask for help eh? |
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Edited by - Pop on 08 Sep 2012 09:34:39 AM |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 10:08:20 AM
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How do you know it was an unnatural pattern, maybe it was maybe it wasn't, it doesn't change anything - does anyone on here know them personally? Someone must have alerted the RSPCA initially as they don't normally just drop in.
The whole facts are unknown. But what is known is that a couple, who have horses, have been found guilty of neglect. I'm sure their mental health wasn't so bad they neglected to feed and clothe themselves.
I, for one, cannot believe anyone with half a brain in their head could allow their horses to become neglected. Child or pet you have a responsibility. |
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 10:17:27 AM
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| You don't see the unnatural pattern? From priviously reported behaviour to that of now? Oh Well ...... |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 10:21:19 AM
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| I don't know the couple at all Pop - just know they've been found guilty of neglect, fact. Who reported there previous behaviour? |
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 10:37:57 AM
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Their previous behaviour is extensively commented on .... on this forum, by people whose opinion I had accepted as good opinion. (and other testimonials freely available on the Internet).
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 12:57:21 PM
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You can happily believe and question all you read on this - the fact remains the same. You can speculate on all sorts of things that may or may not have caused this, you may also take into account laziness and lack of funds, as well as physical and mental health, as they could cause a change in behaviour too.
I adore my children and I adore my animals and I have little time for anyone who can neglect or harm either. Call me cold hearted but so be it.
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
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zooscat
Gold Member
United Kingdom
882 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 6:19:10 PM
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I suffer from a severe and enduring mental illness. I have lived with it for almost all my life. I have ensured that when I feel the dark side creeping back to disable me A the P, the Misses Dog and Cat are wholly looked after by their utterly devoted and commited professional team. I've always had that in place for all my animals. Perhaps I should not have animals? They are one of the reasons I make every effort to stay alive. ( and if I fail in that endevour, there is a clear plan, known by all professionals involved, to ensure their safety and welfare).
What I want to know is the why of the matter? I am horrified angry and heartbroken for the suffering of the horses - but knowing the why and how may alert me and others, mentally ill or not, to realise before it is too late that different actions must be taken to ensure animals' welfare.
Please note, that due to the stigma of having a mental illness, a lot of people find it very difficult to own it and ask for help. I have nothing but kindness, concern and support from ALiners when I have been struggling, and feeling hopeless about my worth to have A the P. I have no problem talking about my mental illness. It's part of who I am. But ' famous people' have a lot more to lose and may not realise the state they are in. This in no way to condone their behaviour. I want to know why and how to prevent more of the same happening to other animals.
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 6:29:14 PM
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Zooscat - bless you, your a very brave and must be wonderful person.
Non of us are perfect. I believe my animals keep me sane! OK, there are times I want to live in a pristine luxury penthouse with a goldfish but how I would miss all the muck, heartbreak and joy :)
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jbassindale |
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cmj
Silver Member
France
383 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 6:56:10 PM
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Zooscat - you are obviously an ideal person to have animals because you have planned and acted responsibly. You give them unconditional love. Regarding making plans, well it is not really much different from making sure that someone can give your horses hay and water if it snows and you can't drive there. Plans like not breeding more than you can look after or afford etc. You are a shining example of how someone who knows they are susceptible plans for bad times. I respect you. I don't respect LS or feel any sympathy whatsoever for her. What the two of them allowed to happen disgusts me. She seemed to "talk the talk" and "pen the page" and I think this is what really sucks to me on top of the suffering they caused.
I know from a family situation how dreadful mental illness can be, Sectioning etc.......but at no time were the children or dog allowed to be in danger.
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 8:07:48 PM
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| cmj.......... agree with you wholeheartedly! |
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Sahir
Gold Member
England
847 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 8:27:42 PM
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Lesley Skipper is a disgrace, no matter that she & her husband were apparently suffering depression, a bit late in the day to bring that into consideration, she's made a lot of money from her books, pity she didn't use some of it to pay someone to look after her horses. I've no sympathy for her or her husband, as I said earlier on this thread "There is no excuse" WHATSOEVER !!
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what is happening?
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