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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 01:20:49 AM
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I'm lost, not that it matters, but I was interested in Freddie's % Crabbet, who is on loan to me, can't work it out! Can anyone help, parents I believe are both on line, Lahir Pertama (Freddie), parents, El Hadiye (CDRS Kid Shailin/Amira al Noor) x Ha Ayeeshah (Now and Forever/HT Lamia), passport says DNA tested. Many thanks just interested. Stud book reference AHSB v21 if that helps! Thank you, Sarah :)
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Edited by - connormum on 08 Nov 2011 01:31:37 AM
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Mags
Silver Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 07:01:33 AM
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Not much help, although I did have a stab at Mia's and it wasnt much, but as the half brother to Mia i really do think more pictures are required  |
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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 5:25:41 PM
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I didn't know where to start! I promise to get some pictures of him in his winter woollies over the weekend, I haven't got any recent ones. We survived the final jab of his initial vaccination course yesterday with no one being hurt just a bit  . How is Mia getting along? And ditto more photos :) |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 9:33:00 PM
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Sarah, I can have another go at Freddie's Crabbet % if someone doesn't beat me to it, I can usually work them out quickly as long as the right info is on allbreeds.
Just to add, Freddie's grand dam Almira Al Noor is Kes's dam!!! Which is weird considering they are the same age I think, Freddie is 6 also? |
    
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 9:42:53 PM
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Carole, I remember you having a stab at it when we first got them! Feel free to have another go Freddie was 7 in April so he's a year older than Kes, too late for my head to get around their parentage  , lol, although he acts about 3! Probably due to the fact he's not done much in his life to date .... It's not important that I know how much Crabbet he has, I am just interested :) |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 5:05:44 PM
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Wow Sarah, I know why I had trouble with yours last time. I'm already onto great great great great grandparents and still haven't got anywhere near the figures I need to calculate Crabbet %. So far I have worked out the Crabbet % of 3/5ths of his great great great grandparents, that's how difficult his is!!!
You seriously owe me a beer after this 
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 5:17:45 PM
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Just realised that I am also working on this one  , if you want to carry on with it Carole then I'll quite happily start on one of the others on the list on the other thread 
If its any help Theegyptian Prince is 20.32%, Ansata Nile Pasha is 26.02%, Melchior is 24.22%, Crystal Shadow is 87.1%, Ralvon Elijah is 75%, Shaikh Al Kuran is 27.34%, Bey Shadow is 98.44%
El Shaklan is 13.28%, Ludomino is 100%, Ibn Moniet El Nefous is 15.63%, El Shaklan is 13.28%, Ansata Ibn Halima is 18.75%. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 10 Nov 2011 5:18:51 PM |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 6:04:18 PM
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| Another one - ET Crown Prince is 21.85% |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 6:16:23 PM
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Right I'm completely lost!   Thanks Callisto/Carole ..... this seems really complicated, I'll leave it to you two :) Many thanks and a drink promised for the one who works it out! Many thanks, Sarah. |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 7:23:12 PM
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If you want Linda I really don't mind, I won't have time to do anymore tonight though so depends on how busy you are/want the satisfaction of finishing it? I can probably finish it tomorrow night, I have attempted this one for Sarah before but that was before I really sussed out how to do them properly and quickly so failed dismally. I have to say though, this is probably about the 14/15th one I've done and it's the hardest so far. There really is a severe lack of info on this horse's pedigree.
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 9:57:47 PM
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| You carry on Carole - one last offering:- Simeon Shai is 28.71% And yes this is a toughy - it's all the Egyptian/Babson blood,whoever leaves the info on Allbreeds is generally not interested in pointing out the Crabbet lines |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 10 Nov 2011 10:04:11 PM |
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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 10:15:18 PM
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| Linda, I think Gina/Alan have also asked for his dams percentage on the other thread ... might give you a leg up on that one! Thank you both for your efforts! I look forward to the result. And excuse my ignorance but what is Babson blood??? |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 10:08:30 AM
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This is from Wikipedia, possibly not the best source of info, but it gives you an overview:-
Henry B. Babson (December 1, 1875 – October, 1970) was an entrepreneur, investor in phonograph technology, and notable breeder of Arabian horses. He first moved to Chicago at the age of 17 at the urging of inventor Leon F. Douglass.[1] While working at the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, better known as the Chicago World Fair, Babson first encountered purebred Arabian horses brought from the Middle East for exhibition, and decided that some day he would own such horses for himself.[2]
Though Babson himself was not an inventor, he became wealthy by selling innovative products, particularly the Victor Phonograph, and was acquainted with inventors like Leon Douglass and Thomas Edison. He made many successful business decisions based on new designs or technologies, choosing, for example, to sell a new design of milking machine, or investing in new phonograph companies.[3] However, his interest in the new, innovative, and beautiful was particularly reflected in his personal life. He hired the famous architect, Louis Sullivan to design his country estate, enjoyed racing custom sailboats, and, in the 1930s, began to import Arabian horses to the United States.[2]
Babson obtained Arabian horses from England, Poland, and most notably, Egypt. He began to travel in search of the finest quality Arabian horses in 1930, traveling to England, France, and Spain, but was unable to purchase horses of the quality he sought.[6] In 1932, when he was 57 years old, he made his first major importation from Egypt of two stallions and five mares, and built a farm near Grand Detour, Illinois, for his horse breeding operation. In 1938 and 1939, he imported four Arabians from Poland to cross on his Egyptian-bred stock. In 1940 and 1941, and again in 1958 he imported a small number of English-bred Arabians via farms in Canada and England. Over the years, Babson-bred horses excelled in the horse show ring in both halter (horse conformation) classes and various performance disciplines under saddle and in harness.[6] Respected for his contributions to the Arabian horse breed in America, Babson served as President of the Arabian Horse Registry, now part of the Arabian Horse Association from 1949 until 1957.[2]
The most notable of Babson's imports was the stallion *Fadl, who went on to sire the champion Fa-Serr, who is a major genetic source of the color black in modern Arabians. Fadl's most famous son, however, was the half-Egyptian, half-Polish stallion Fadheilan, sire of the legendary champion of the 1960s, Fadjur, grandsire of Khemosabi, a national champion in both halter and performance, who was one of the most significant Arabian sires of the 1970s and 1980s.[7] Today, *Fadl is found in at all "straight Babson" (or "Babson Egyptian") pedigrees.[6] The best-known horses of his Polish imports were the stallion *Sulejman, who sired many champions, and the mare *Azja IV, who became the dam of the major American-bred sire Azraff.[6]
By the early 1960s, Babson decided to concentrate his breeding program solely on the subgroup of Arabian bloodstock now known as "Babson Egyptian" bloodlines. He kept his breeding stock that was descended from his original Egyptian imports and sold his non-Egyptian bred horses. He then began to cross some of his stock on the "new" Egyptian imports that began to arrive in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s, primarily the descendants of the stallion Nazeer. After almost 40 years of horse breeding, Babson died in 1970, and his breeding operation continued until 1999.[2]
Babson's most enduring legacy was his contribution to the Arabian horse breed. Babson bloodlines are noted for producing Arabian horses of substance with calm, steady, trainable dispositions, used for dressage and endurance riding as well as many different horse show disciplines in both the United States and Europe. Horses strongly influenced by Babson breeding are generally darker in color, mostly dark bay, liver chestnut and black.[2]
Approximately 230 Arabian horses today are pure, direct descendants of the Babson Egyptian imports and are referred to as "straight Babson" or "Babson Egyptian" horses.[6] However, Arabians with "Babson-influenced" bloodlines number in the thousands, both in what are known as "Domestic" pedigrees (Arabians with ancestors imported to the United States prior to 1944) and "Straight Egyptian" pedigrees (Arabians with ancestors all tracing to Egyptian bloodstock).[2] Both the "straight Babson" group and the "Babson-influenced" group of bloodlines have preservation breeders working to preserve the Babson influence. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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connormum
Bronze Member
175 Posts |
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hazelcat74
Silver Member
472 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 10:53:35 PM
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| Following this with interest as my girl is half sister to HA Ayeeshah but unreg'd and don't know her sire, and I wouldnt have a clue how much crabbet she might be |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 10:26:29 AM
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Linda (and Sarah), I didn't get a chance to pick up where I left off yesterday with Lahir Pertama but hopefully will do this weekend.
Linda - why is it we see easily available %'s for some lines and not others? As I said above I have done a fair few of these now and this one is so difficult. I worked out one for my old first pony (NF x Arab) and even though I had to follow hers back to way before Crabbet inception, about Abbas Pasha and Ali Pasha Sherif, it was all there. So if I can follow a part bred back over the centuries (1800's), why is it I can't easily do a pure bred who was bred 7 years ago??
Is there another database that is better than allbreeds? I also use the Al Khamsa site but that can get really confusing with the breakdown of % into Inshass, Blunt, EI and EII bloodlines.
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 11:47:20 AM
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Hi Carole, this horse is a toughie. I am really looking forward to calculating a Crabbet percentage for a horse of British breeding - much easier! As I said before, it is only people who are interested in the Crabbet lines who post the info on allbreeds. People interested in Straight Egyptians don't seem to have any interest in the Crabbet horses, there is only a little Crabbet blood that went to Poland, so you mostly draw a blank there, and in France. As I said before, it is amazing how many Crabbet horses went to the US, so quite a lot of influence there, and of course a number were involved in the Egyptian breeding program and in Russia. I have stopped using the figures on allbreeds but as I said, I have started my own Excel spreadsheet, recording each horse, it's sex, breeder, country of birth, any info on it's life, Crabbet percentage, Sire and Dam. Then I trace all of them back until I prove whether they have any Crabbet blood or not...very time consuming as you can imagine, particularly as I should have done it ages ago as opposed to filling up a notebook with just names, year of birth and percentage which was my previous method. The Crabbet Organisation have a booklet telling you how to calculate the Crabbet percentage which lists all the original Stallions and Mares which is a help. You can download this online.
Right off to continue looking at my latest project! |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 12:05:50 PM
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Hi Linda, yes before I started working out %'s I downloaded and printed off the calculator but still do it myself anyway.
You are the only person I know of that has this (albeit not complete but extremely useful nonetheless) database of Crabbet %'s, I would say what you have there is valuable in terms of time and availability. Are there any published works aside from the AHS vol's that are a compendium with every horses Crabbet % listed? (I haven't seen/got any AHS vol's so guessing there). Like I said, the Al Khamsa site is good but sooooo detailed it makes quick reference impossible, it is also a US site so not exactly biased towards our English lines which can make ascertaining Blunt breeding sketchy as best sometimes.
When you finish your database of Crabbet %'s sell it, make your millions, never have to work again and pay someone else to do your mucking out
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 12:13:31 PM
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I think the Crabbet Organisation might have something to say about that...they charge £20 to certify your horse's Crabbet percentage....
Oh and I have Vols 1-17 of the AHS stud book, and I would be delighted if they had each horse's Crabbet percentage, but they don't
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Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 12:43:15 PM
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oooops, maybe don't take my advice then
I'm stuck Linda, can you help please? The horse BINT ROGA AL ZARKA born 1895, it's a bit vague in the info section as to who bred this horse. The Blunts Egyptian stud, does that make the horse 100% Crabbet still or not? I've not come across this before. Help!!!
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 1:34:35 PM
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| ok, I've got as far as I can get with this one. Of the 8 great grand parents I have the Crabbet % for 5 of them, meaning I also have the Crabbet % for 2 of the 4 grand parents. Of the 16 g,g grand parents I can only work out 8 due to what is written, I can't interpret whether horses are Blunt bred or not. Yes there is Babson and Polish but the lines keep following back to the same horses which I can't work out. Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 2:33:36 PM
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Carole, the definition of Crabbet includes the horses that they bought to start their stud/improve their breeding program, e.g. Skowronek, so this would make Bint Roga Al Zarka's progeny 100% Crabbet (unless they were bred by someone else before she bought them).
ETA
The definition of Crabbet includes all the horses they bred at their Sheykh Obeyd operation in Egypt. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 12 Nov 2011 2:34:58 PM |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 2:46:50 PM
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Linda, that's the problem in a nutshell, the text (no numbers) is a bit hazy. It says who the horses came from and that they were in the Sheykh Obeyd catalogue, it doesn't say the Blunts owned or bred them. So that could make some horses either 100% Crabbet or 0% Crabbet, pretty big difference on total outcome wouldn't you agree. If I give you the names of the horses I can't figure can you help?
I haven't come across this before and I think this is why I failed last time. It's not a case of obtaining %'s, it's deciphering text. It only takes me to read it incorrectly and I could assume 100% instead of 0% and vise versa.
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 3:09:17 PM
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| Carole, give me the names and the progeny you are interested in and I will have a look - not saying that I'll be able to work it out either... |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Kes
Platinum Member
England
1819 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 5:50:30 PM
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Ok, still working on Lahir Pertama; can't work out:- Simeon Shai, AK Asal Moniet and Kerrilyn ibn Amir. Of those 3 following back Amir El Shaklan is 12.988281% and Theegyptian Prince you know at 20.32%
Carole. |
Carole & Kes, West Sussex. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 6:51:58 PM
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| Carole, I already worked out Simeon Shai as 28.71% (See earlier post above), as off for dinner but will look at the others later |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Crabbet %
