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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 09:45:35 AM
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"what about a couple of ring stewards that are professional handlers with the whips...for the unlikely occurence of a loose stallion...??"
Unfortunately two people (or even six) would never be able to cover the whole ring and I firmly believe that stallion handlers should be allowed to carry whips, long ones, reach further to ward off a loose stallion. At the end of the day the safety of horses and handlers is paramount. I would hate to see a stallion fight in the ring because of a whip ban due to abusive handlers.
Barbara |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 10:17:20 AM
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The ears tell the story
They never stop pointing at the handler despite all the bags and screams from all around . |
    
blue moon |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 6:43:25 PM
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Perhaps the audience should use the red and yellow cards! 
Keren |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 7:21:33 PM
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Hi
Keren...that could never work...sadly..xx
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brighe
Bronze Member
England
55 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 9:25:41 PM
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| I am confused as to why stallion handlers would need a long whip for protection but yet none of them, in arab showing never wear a hard hat! |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 08:08:33 AM
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Can you for a few seconds imagine what you'd see if there were hidden cameras at the yard of these trainers. The first people to sit down and watch the video should be the owners. For 5 minutes of glory for the 'trainer' (laughable to call themselves 'trainers' anyone could train a horse by standing in front of them whipping them with a whip) and the owner they destroy horse after horse. Please don't tell me the horses move on from that and are ok, yes the very few who find a good, experienced understanding home to rehabilitate them, even then the horse never forgets and can never be fully rehabilitated. And the others? Passed from pillar to post until they sooner rather than later meet mr meatman.
I haven't read the previous page, Delyth et al is there somewhere even non showing, non Ahs members like myself can write or email to protest against this cruelty and ineffiency of the people who are meant to safeguard the horses at shows?
Fee |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 10:41:16 AM
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Long lashing whips needed for handler protection in arab stallion classes.....What a feeble excuse to support the use of whips!!!!
Instead of the flimsy halters which can so easily slip off over the stallions` ears...Lets get back to `proper` stallion bridles which are far more secure....That and a good stout cane seems well able to serve the purpose in all other breed stallion classes......So why not suitable for our arab stallions???
Wise up owners....Stop patronising the cruel and unacceptable training methods of those professionals, whos only motive is to make big bucks and not consider the care and welfare of your horse
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 2:39:00 PM
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Right I'm bowing out on this discussion because as so many balanced things on here it is loosing direction.
I have shown at the highest level and enjoyed it. I have only ever used Mark Gamlin and Emma Maxwell to show my horses. All has worked well, all parties, in particular the horses, have been happy. I will always believe it is down to the owners to protect their horses by treating them to the very best care and handler and not immense pressure to this difficult job.
I will continue, with others, to approach ECHAO and try and make changes and improvements. I will praise positive action however small, I won't look for problems that aren't there. I won't blow things out of proportion, I won't complain for the sake of it and I will never put one of those old fashioned godforsaken thick leather, brass buckled bridles on my stallion !!!!!! If my excuse for the use of a whip in a stallion class is feeble then so be it. I love the exuberance of this breed and will not drag it down to show it as a hunter - sorry !!! |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 4:10:02 PM
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Well said, Delyth. I see no problem with a whip for safety, not to intimidate a horse.
Many moons ago a handler/owner was sent out of the ring for hitting another person's stallion with his whip after it bit him. To me, the wrong person was sent out of the ring; the handler who allowed his horse to bite another handler should have been sent out of the ring as he clearly wasn't keeping his attention on his horse, and hopefully his stallion had a timely reminder of his manners.
Barbara |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 5:48:11 PM
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Well said Delyth!!
Isnt the whip suppose to be used as an extention of the arm anyway, not to beat the living daylights out of our horses!! A cane is no use no ornament if there is a loose stallion in the ring!!
The sound of the the whip may keep him away from yourself and your horse, A cane wouldnt!
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 6:05:37 PM
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If a horse has natural presence and the Wow...look at me attitude.....cant really see that
by using secure bridling, an Arabian stallion will go into "oh gosh....must plod round like a hunter now, mode"
The Arabians of yesteryear exhibited all the natural flair and flambouyance whilst displaying
the breathtaking floating on air paces Arabians are so famed for...without the need for long swishing whips,to make them show off
Whilst money talks and win at any cost regardless prevails, sadly for the horse....can see no resolve to what goes on behind the scenes and is becoming evermore observed in collecting and Show Arenas
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.,uk |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 7:39:32 PM
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It is perfectly possible to have a secure but discreet rolled leather bridle WITH a throatlash - I remember The Shah wearing a very spiffy one in 1978, so no need for hunter bridles.
The only positive difference I have ever seen between American show rules and our own is the fact that they *require* a throatlash on show halters - now if only they specified a FUNCTIONAL throatlash, then bridles would be a lot more secure.
Keren |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 7:54:33 PM
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| I don't really see what difference the halter or the whip being used would make, the issue still lies in the fact that some trainers mistreat the horses put in their care and judges and other officials turn a blind eye, and sadly so too do some owners... Changing a halter, whip or adding a throatlash won't really fix the problem |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 8:17:10 PM
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We do seem to be losing direction rather - the issue of REAL cruelty lies with the horses that are subjected to beatings and worse while being 'trained' to achieve the 'frozen pose' that is sickeningly popular these days. The frozen pose needs to be banned (Alistair made a very good comment about the horses' ears being fixed rigidly on their handlers, whatever was going on about them). DC's need to uphold the rules vigorously, judges need to penalise handlers whose animals are obviously afraid - Emma's system sounds fantastic.
I don't believe that abuse is anywhere near as prevalent in this country as it is in others, however if it is stamped on I believe the UK & Europe could lead the way for a much kinder showing environment - where the horses are allowed to relax and enjoy themselves - and others will follow.
All it needs is support from ECAHO and the courage of those who have the admittedly difficult job of judging and DC'ing to stamp out the offenders, for the tide to start to turn.
I also agree with Delyth that the ultimate responsibility for the wellbeing of these horses lies with the owners.
NB - perhaps the long whips are required because Arab stallions are encouraged to be flamboyant and excited in the ring - I certainly would not fancy trying to fend off a loose stallion with just a cane - by the time it came near enough for me to use it, it would be too late ! |
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 1:06:22 PM
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me 
Showing is an art, ok there are a few shanking issues but what is so cruel about a horse trotting around a showring with loud music and an excited crowd?
My foals are born with the radio blasting out and kids galloping round on ponies screaming and shouting.
Very rarely have I seen show horses with whip marks/injuries/blood.
My ex stallion Jazzmeen was show trained in Europe, been taught spanish walk, yes with a whip! worn a chiffney etc and he is the softest stallion ever. He runs with mares, does sj, xc, dressage... any aid used in the right way is not cruel, and I mean IN THE RIGHT WAY!
Aachen is a shop window of high class horses fighting for their glory. A hell of a lot of work goes into these horses, conditioning, feeding, training, costing a lot of money! The horses are pampered, they are fit, they gleam.
Yes, there are bast**ds that shank for no reason and stick ginger up the horses ass and they should be punished. I dont know why some of you tar every owner/trainer with the same brush.
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jbassindale |
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Nashiba
Bronze Member
235 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 1:22:52 PM
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The words "rose" and "spectacles" come to mind.Showing an ART???
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 1:55:44 PM
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Yes, showing is an art.
Emma Maxwell walks into the ring with her horse and owns it. She knows exactly how to parade her horse with no force. She looks elegant and is a great runner. She gets a super pose with no eyeballs popping and fixed ears.
Many of us have been around horses for a lifetime but would not take our own horses into the ring. We dont want to let our horses down so we use a pro.
Hats off to owners that do try though, have done it myself so I do actually know what Im trying to get across.
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jbassindale |
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Silver
Silver Member
279 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 2:07:21 PM
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| I dont think anybody on here has said its every owner and every trainer but it does happen. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 2:22:10 PM
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Hear hear Justine, mine have music blasting, tractors, and all manner of noise from day one.
It does seem that some on here are tarring all with the same brush, apart from Emma (who is great at what she does), that is unkind and unfair. I watched a lot of the live stream, and saw extremely little what I would have called excessive shanking. The stallion mentioned earlier that reared and nearly went over was pulled ONCE for not paying attention, hardly excessive shanking, he was extremely excited and over reacted, I saw well done to the handler who held on tightly or the horse WOULD have possibly fell on someone or hurt himself.
I do and still will use a professional handler for my horses, mainly cause I run like a fish can.
I have a mare here I bought from america that executes the frozen pose to the extreme, if I sent her out showing should her handler be penalised for the poppy eyed look? For the feet frozen to the floor and body rocking action?? For flinching when said handler so much as breathes, with or without whip, with or without chain, it makes no odds.
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www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 2:53:24 PM
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ha ha run like a fish, thats me lol
The showring can be extremley dangerous. Sometimes a little shank is needed to say `hey, horse respect my space and concentrate`. After all you have 500kilo on the end of a line.
What do you do when your horse bolts whilst riding? yep, you pull like **** on his mouth before you hit the deck or an oncoming car!
Frozen pose - hmmm, my horses are taught to pose with no abuse, I like a really concentrated pose.
I have one mare, never shown. She is naturally spooky. She will rock into a pose, flat topline, hook her neck and pop out her eyes. This mare has never ever seen a whip!!!! |
jbassindale |
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george
Gold Member
Wales
1353 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 3:49:42 PM
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Glad I'm not the only one who loves the excited look....which "CAN" be enhanced, without abuse!!  |
George xxx
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 5:59:01 PM
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| Wow, I have only just caught up with this. I wil read the whole topic before replying. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 7:23:17 PM
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I have never condoned abuse, BUT some horses are more sensitive than others, hence the rearing stallion, my mare rocking and appearing frightened. I can't say its from abuse or her natural temperament. I love the pose, not a frozen stance, there is a difference. I wouldnt want them to going back to standing slouchy and a boring shuffle trot round the ring.
I want to see them for what they are, spirited, exciting and above all beautiful creatures. |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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Livestream Aachen
