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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 10:33:30 AM
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OK so lets do something about it
Who is the UK representative of ECAHO?
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blue moon |
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Tzarina
Platinum Member
England
1997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 10:51:14 AM
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I am so glad that people who are highly respected at top level showing have added their comments. As Emma was clearly there and saw it and to say what she felt shows the despicable level European showing is sinking to. I've commented in plenty of places that it was an absolute joy to watch Emma show Premier - it lifted my heart and still believe that a horse can have fun. Erik showing Almasa and Jan showing Piligrim were about the only others I was delighted to watch, apart from England's Louise Brian winning the Handlers Cup - well done Louise.
I am probably stood up against a wall here waiting to be shot, but a star like WH Justice - all those 20's and he still only had average leg marks. What is ultimately going to hold these horses up. Legs are being sacrificed for the sake of "extreme" heads.
I have to agree with Emma's and Jane Kadri's comments, everything they have said is true.
To me it is obvious why and how it has got into the state it is in, but sadly I think it is a long haul problem that will not ne solved overnight.
Emma, Jan, Erik, Mark-G and the few others. Keep showing us these beautiful horses the way you do, it is refreshing to see that some handlers arent sheep and follow the pack |
    
Tzarinaarabians@yahoo.com
"The horse is God's gift to mankind."
"The daughter who wont lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable."
"All horses deserve to be loved by at least one little girl during their life" |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 11:33:14 AM
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I didnt watch it I was away all weekend but it saddens me that still they insist on Shanking these poor poor horses!!
Its a habit, if you can call it that, I call it bullying, that when they are just walking round or standing them in line without the judge anywhere near they shank them!!
And all this, *woo, I can stroke its forelock down so I dont beat it* is frankly quite embarrassing!! You do beat the living cr*p out of them, you can tell when the whip goes anywhere near their legs or body they whince!!
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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carole ferguson
Silver Member
United Kingdom
457 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 12:32:35 PM
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I have heard that stroking the forelock is a signal to the horse that he can relax for a while after the frozen Saddlebred pose etc.- and watching them - I think in some cases this looks as though it could be true.
I gather one of our judges is not invited to judge on the continent - as the horses will get marked down if they rock backwards - are shaking - or smack their lips in fear. They would get docked a point for all these things - so no more judging abroad. |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 1:42:51 PM
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I feel sick reading this never mind seeing it! Shameful! 
Fee
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janice
Silver Member
United Kingdom
373 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 1:47:30 PM
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| I'm prepared to stand up and be counted - as a horse lover |
you can't kid a kidder!!
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Tzarina
Platinum Member
England
1997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 2:00:49 PM
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| Emma straightens the forelock and there is no way she could be accused of adopting the frozen pose - io think in a lot of cases its just a habit they've got into |
Tzarinaarabians@yahoo.com
"The horse is God's gift to mankind."
"The daughter who wont lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable."
"All horses deserve to be loved by at least one little girl during their life" |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 2:11:34 PM
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WITH YOU ON THIS ONE ALISTAIR.....`WHO IS THE ARAB HORSE SOCIETY UK REPRESENTATIVE FOR ECAHO ??
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....THIS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!! WE ARE BRITISH...SO WHY DO WE FOLLOW LIKE SHEEP AND ALLOW THIS DISPICABLE CONTINENTAL FASHION, TO BE EMULATED IN OUR SHOWRINGS
FOR THE LOVE OF OUR BEAUTIFUL ARABIAN BREED, WHO IS GOING TO INITIATE A CHANGE IN SHOWING RULES, TO ONCE AND FOR ALL, STOP THE SHANKING WHIPPING, WHIRLING AND OTHER ABUSE TO BE WITNESSED IN OUR BRITISH SHOWRINGS
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Scarlet Arabian
Silver Member
England
339 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 2:27:49 PM
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WITH YOU ON THIS ONE ALISTAIR.....`WHO IS THE ARAB HORSE SOCIETY UK REPRESENTATIVE FOR ECAHO ??
" ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....THIS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!! WE ARE BRITISH...SO WHY DO WE FOLLOW LIKE SHEEP AND ALLOW THIS DISPICABLE CONTINENTAL FASHION, TO BE EMULATED IN OUR SHOWRINGS
FOR THE LOVE OF OUR BEAUTIFUL ARABIAN BREED, WHO IS GOING TO INITIATE A CHANGE IN SHOWING RULES, TO ONCE AND FOR ALL, STOP THE SHANKING WHIPPING, WHIRLING AND OTHER ABUSE TO BE WITNESSED IN OUR BRITISH SHOWRINGS"
Babs
OH WHY IS THERE NOT A LIKE BUTTON BEHIND YOU GUYS ALL WAY, COUNT MY VOTE IN i see a crusade coming on |
    
stacatto wind...... kharibe........salana A/A........julien p/b........scarlet...
whitsbury/new forest
www.scarletarabianbridles.co.uk |
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 2:48:08 PM
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| Totally agree with you Vygoda....we need to link this conversation with Face Book!! (where they do have LIKE buttons!!) |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 3:24:14 PM
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Delyth has it on her FB page Suyents,I agree something needs to be done about the obvious abuse.It always concerns me if this behaviour is tolerated in public,,then what happens at home in private  |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 3:28:24 PM
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Indeed there were some beautifull horses there , some of which were natural show offs with that lovely natural carriage & tail carriage .
Although i thought some looked a bit flat after their initial entrance into the ring being spun around on the lead with a bag on a stick chasing them !
Some of them looked like rocking horses without their rockers...back & forth back & forth ,there was a lovely bay mare who was continously jumping back from her handler & all his shanking |
     
Brixham (South Devon ) |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 3:47:39 PM
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| What happened to the yellow and red cards that Pat Maxwell proposed? |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 3:52:12 PM
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Well I stand corrected then if it is to make them relax but.... they shoudlnt need to be groomed like that in the ring to make it look like they are relaxing because some of them arent. They may relax then a minute later they are being shanked!!
For what???????????? relaxing!!
Tina, I Know what you are saying about Emma and I didnt mean her at all. Think the majority of them handlers should look to Emma and see what it means to handle a horse properly and still win!!!
Janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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Tzarina
Platinum Member
England
1997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:11:14 PM
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 Jan, I know who you are referring to re *the forelock* thing, yes its a pity that they cant look to Emma as to how to do it.
I know Erik-D has said that there were occasions in the collecting ring when red and yellow cards should of been dished out, so where were the DC's (turning the proverbial blind eye??)
This wrapping the lead rein round and round is quite frightening, obvious why they do it, but ultimately dangerous to them, and there was one handler in particular who seemed to do it regularly. As someone has written somewhere on the internet, it is only a matter of time before there is a serious incident with one of these horses and then who will get the blame - the poor horse |
Tzarinaarabians@yahoo.com
"The horse is God's gift to mankind."
"The daughter who wont lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable."
"All horses deserve to be loved by at least one little girl during their life" |
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Emma Maxwell
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
222 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:19:03 PM
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The red and yellow cards were suggested by the late Jorgen Frederiksen and my father instantly saw the sense in them. I wrote a list of offences to spell out clearly to both handlers and DC's what was and was not acceptable, so that fouls could be dealt with on the spot without anyone having to make the rules up as they went along. This list got repeatedly shouted down. This was over ten years ago when my father was still Chairman of ECAHO and while the cards came into existence they have never had offences defined, which was the whole point of them.
So here they are again, what I can remember of them
Horse mouthing to handler. RED Card, instant dismissal
Horse falls to knees RED
Horse shanked on chin, while already standing still. NOT to be confused with pulling a moving horse which is out of control, or reprimanding a stallion threatening another. the YELLOW CARD, a second to bring dismissal for that handler.
Horse backs off three paces from handler YELLOW CARD
Horse rears and strikes at handler with pinned ears YELLOW CARD
I might add, horse which rears and staggers back, as we saw in Aachen when junior stallion nearly fell on the judges RED
Now many of the handlers had hissy fits about my list because most of them have horses which have displayed this behavior at one time or another, and of course it is not their fault, and what if the horse was trained by someone else first, blah, blah blah. oh and some horses are really naughty. etc etc.
Personally I stand by my list, and if I ever got caught out by it someone else had roughed up first, well tough, I would have to take it on the chin.
I actually think that there would be fewer disqualifications than you might think. Handlers are not stupid. They are competitive. They will do what they can get away with. If you give them a clearer code of practice they WILL work with it, because if they don't they lose. |
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ambassador
Bronze Member
France
102 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:21:41 PM
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| Please please lets start now and do something positive do you think a petition to the uk representative would help, I remember posting on here 2 years ago after watching in horror at Paris, being out of the showing scene for a few years moving to France and it made me feel distraught this is what things had come to the paralyzed fear just brainwashed all the personality and natural exuberance that you must see it sick end me to my soul I came away and vowed I could never witness that again, guiltily thinking you'll never be able to change it , but the time is now please lets get together |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:22:02 PM
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I saw that wrapping leadreins round their hands at Towerlands and by BRITISH handlers!!!!!!!!! I didnt know they were using it to abuse the horses!! My thought when I saw it was *how stupid* what if the horse suddenly bolted.....
problem is these young up and coming handlers see whats going on with these that abuse the horses and think that they can get away with it aswell. Not all of them I must say but some of them.
Years ago, many handlers did it for a bit of extra money, these days its a business and big business at that!
Janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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Emma Maxwell
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
222 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:31:20 PM
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Solution number 2
I have often suggested this one as well. Again, my father's idea and something that he did do once or twice as a judge. I did it once as well in New Zealand and it works.
If you have a horse standing in front of you to be judged and you think the handler is unnecessarily intimidating it, you ask the ring steward to ask the the handler to put his whip on the floor or you will not judge the horse. Hander will have a hissy fit but they do have to comply. Then you judge their horse. You have made it clear to the handler and to the audience that you are not prepared to judge petrified horses. Handler will curse you endlessly but they will be very careful with all the rest of their presentations. Job done. |
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Tzarina
Platinum Member
England
1997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:42:57 PM
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Jan, I know who you are referring to re *the forelock* thing, yes its a pity that they cant look to Emma as to how to do it.
I know Erik-D has said that there were occasions in the collecting ring when red and yellow cards should of been dished out, so where were the DC's (turning the proverbial blind eye??)
This wrapping the lead rein round and round is quite frightening, obvious why they do it, but ultimately dangerous to them, and there was one handler in particular who seemed to do it regularly. As someone has written somewhere on the internet, it is only a matter of time before there is a serious incident with one of these horses and then who will get the blame - the poor horse |
Tzarinaarabians@yahoo.com
"The horse is God's gift to mankind."
"The daughter who wont lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable."
"All horses deserve to be loved by at least one little girl during their life" |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:47:24 PM
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Absolutely fantastic solution Emma - and as you say guaranteed to work. I have read somewhere before that word does travel amongst handlers that certain judges like things done in certain ways (eg no excessive stretching (as Christine Jamar demonstrated a few years ago when judging at the Nationals)- and they then adjust their handling accordingly - so again it does come back to the Judges and DC's.....if only more had your courage Emma !
The situation is getting worse & worse, something needs to be done and we can all play a part in it - but where do we start and who with ? |
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RUTHIE
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1238 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 4:59:15 PM
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Tried the link posted but it dosen't play....am I doing something wrong? Need to see what you are all talking about as its new to me...shanking and what is a DC? Sorry to sound ignorant |
     
In Memory of Crystal Flash 2010-2012 |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 5:19:12 PM
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| Emma's solutions are there and ready to be implemented but it still takes judges & DC's with the balls to carry them through - how can that issue be solved? |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 5:35:30 PM
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| The whip thing is fantastic - bring on the hissy fits !!! |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 5:46:43 PM
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Not wanting to loose direction here. Lets focus for now on what happened in Aachen and not at our National Show. This was extreme in my humble opinion. Also the runners with the bags, people may not like it but lets concentrate on the shanking, the threatening use of the whip, the actual use of the whip and the fear that was just so obvious with some of these horses.
If the red/yellow card could be utilized it could save so much. Back to the DC's - where were they ??? I've been to Aachen when Anthea was actually on ring side shouting to a handler overstepping the mark. The judges continued to judge which I found incredible. An awful lot of questions need answering. |
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Livestream Aachen
