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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 1:10:24 PM
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| It's Minhe on here that you want. She is a veritable mine of information about these things. |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 6:13:48 PM
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| Just checked. Amazon have got The Courthouse Arabian Stud... £18. .... Rose Ennik |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 12:13:43 AM
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| IT is interesting to note the amount of white on the imported stallions. I believe there is a great prejudice against white markings in some circles these days. |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 06:17:16 AM
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| Toothless ...... I'm not sure whether the comment on white refers to early or later imports, i.e., Courthouse in this instance. Certainly I have always understood that in the desert white markings were supposed to be more susceptible to sunburn. I always tended to avoid a lot of white where possible because of it's vulnerability to photo-sensitivity, sunburn and mud-crack. But that's only my experience and opinion! Don't know how white fares in Australia where the environmental factors might be slightly different! ...... Rose Ennik |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 1:19:10 PM
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How old are you?
I was referring to the amount of white in the description of the 3 stallions in the reference above.
The presence of white markings was well regarded by the Bedouin. Remember that the life span in the middle east of a horse was and is relatively short, because of losses due to colic. It is common knowledge that mares spent time in the shelter of the tent.
In my 30yrs+ experience I've never had problems with sun-burnt white noses and I know in Britain it is considered a heat wave if the temp goes up over 25 degrees but here, in the last week, 3days were over 40 degrees, and last summer was the hottest on record (no sunburn).
At the beginning of my involvement in the breed the prevalence of white markings was notable. My dark bay, 99%+ Crabbet stallion had a white star in the middle of his forehead and 3 3quarter canon white socks. Many of the stallions and mares then had large white blazes. Again no sunburn . There were trees in the paddocks to shelter under.
Today white markings are far less prevalent. Also nowhere in the Standard of Excellence will you find any comment suggesting these markings are a fault. And despite this A judge at one of our major shows was critical, in writing' of a horse because of it's white markings. This judge along with many who like to be asked to judge around the world should be honest in the marks they give for leg faults
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Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 05 Jan 2011 1:51:17 PM |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 2:01:24 PM
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I had some Courthouse stock
Somrah and filly Somara
Read a lot about it but not an expert .
Mr Musgrave Clark owned it -he is one of the founders of the AHS-
Seemed to used stallions rarely but produced a type of compact typey horses very like the old paintings of the desert .
Most horses have a copper gleam to their coats and have lovely heads and conformation .
Good temperaments too
A master of his trade .IMO |
    
blue moon |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 4:40:00 PM
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Toothless, it sounds as though someone in your neck of the woods has picked up on the late Dan Gainey's prejudice against white markings! This is all the American ban on so-called 'excessive white' (which was rescinded nearly 40 years ago in any case) was due to - one man's PERSONAL dislike, bolstered by some inaccurate information supplied by Carl Raswan. There is NO REASON to penalise an Arab due to 'excessive white' (however you define it), and anyone who lets such a blatant *personal* bias affect their judging is IMO, not a good judge.
Musgrave-Clark had a very clear idea of what he was looking for in an Arab, and though one of his foundation mares was Belka, who stood over 15hh, he preferred a horse of around 14.2h (his personal 'bias'!). He maintained this height in his stock by 'sticking to the Arabian type as he received it out of the desert' (Erika Schiele, The Arabian Horse in Europe). If only more people followed this principle!
Belka was an outstanding endurance performer, and her line at Courthouse went on to produce Bahram, who was widely regarded as 'the perfect Arabian horse'. Musgrave-Clark cleverly blended the lines of his desert horses with Blunt lines from Crabbet to create compact, curvaceous Arabians that performed well under saddle. Bahram epitomised the 'Courthouse look', and not only was his photo used in many publications to illustrate the correct type of the Arabian horse, but he was also immortalised in ceramic by Beswick!
As has been noted, Musgrave-Clark - especially as he got older - bred very sparingly, so some of his horses only had 1 or 2 offspring. This was a great tragedy to the breed, as his stock had irreplaceable lines and qualities. As far as I know, Jane Kadri's Spearmint is the last pure Courthouse stallion left - he is a gorgeous horse, full of quality.
Another of Musgrave-Clark's 'quirks' was to name many of his horses after successful TB racehorses - hence Bahram and Rheoboam, amongst others.
Courthouse maintained the original Blunt line of Basilisk after it had become extinct at Crabbet (Belka's line), though ultimately it too became extinct at Courthouse, and is now on the verge of completely disappearing in the UK. The Basilisk line was one of Lady Anne Blunt's favourites, and Musgrave-Clark adhered strictly to her views on Arabian breeding throughout his life.
It is interesting to speculate what might have happened if Skowronek had remained in Musgrave-Clark's hands, instead of being acquired from him (by underhand means!) by Lady Wentworth. Certainly, the look and history of the breed would have been very different!
Keren |
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Ennik
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1923 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 7:25:34 PM
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| Toothless .... Answer to your question: I'm 74. (Can't think how the devil I got there, must have happened while I was off doing something else!) If my memory serves me right, I had my first Arab gelding Toron, a chestnut with two long whie stockings and a blaze (Indian Magic x Risslana) around 1971 and my Stallion Ranadi, a bay with only a star and coronet spot, (Sengoran x Wadiha) a year or so later. Both lived to the grand old age of 30. I only quoted on 'white' from what was generally said years ago and from my own experience. It had nothing to do with type, standard or conformation. The famous Crabbet stallion Mesaoud carried a lot a white and you can't knock him! ..... Rose Ennik |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 8:47:58 PM
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The Courthouse horses are fairly rare as 'Musgrave-Clark' did not stand his stallions to outside mares, one of the few exceptions to this rule was Lady May Abel-Smith, daughter of Princess Alice. She bred her desert bred 'Nuhra' mares to the Courthouse stallions with great success. Lady May was the founder of the famous Barton Lodge Stud, and bred famous arabian horses such as 'Darjeel', 'Riaz','Kazra','Razehra', Zehraa.......all descended from her one original desert mare, a gift to her mother from the ruler of Bahrain - 'Nuhra'.
We own two of Lady Mays mares, who carry large percentage of Courthouse blood, Shimsha a descendant of 'Bahram' and 'Karera', we also have Shimshas grandson out of her Crusader daughter, but by Zalim, who was bred at Barton Lodge, and is a grandson of Darjeel, making his son Guisburn Zhalim, very interesting from a 'modern' breeder of Courthouse lines, unfortunately he is not being used as a stallion other than to breed to our TB as he is too closely related to our own mares!!!
Anyway her is a picture of Shimsha - - and with her 2010 foal Guisburn Daoud at 24 hours old, she is a spritely 19 years.- although showing the Courthouse inheritance, she has the beautiful elegance inherited via her grandsire - El Shaklan, her colt is by the Crusader/Heloua son - Hussain
All the best
Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
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natntaz
Platinum Member
England
2919 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 11:10:42 PM
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My boy has courthouse breeding, his sire is SPEARMINT.
He also has lots of white including quite big splash
under his stomache.
He is the first two pic on my signature pics  |
   
Natalie Pix. Essex. Tariq ibn Radfan and Taroub |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 12:19:31 AM
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I like Courthouse breeding too, our Sealeah traces to Champurrado, I also have just bred a foal by a Spearmint son,( Spearmint is I believe still available at stud and the quality of his frozen semen is excellent). Mandy (TOMOS) also has a Courthouse mare.
As for white markings , most 'sunburn' is due to plant photosensitisation,all our horses are 'high white' but we have far more problems home here in Wales with our mares than we ever did with the same two horses in the deserts of the Middle East!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 02:08:31 AM
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Love MESAOUD and his influence.
BAHRAM: What an Arabian. Presence, and type to knock one over. |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 06 Jan 2011 06:13:48 AM |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 12:57:30 PM
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Hi,
I love the Courthouse lines, tough, working horses and on the whole very correct, we have the lovely Augusta who carries 50% Courthouse through her sire Rheingolde (Blenheim/Rosemary), she's now retired from stud, but we have retained two of her offspring full brother and sister Elegancia and Gabriel Oak, both by Imad, they both show a lot of Courthouse characteristics and Gabe has also remained bay like his grandsire Rheingolde.
You'll find photo's on our web site, I'm updating the web site at present so more up to date ones on soon.
Hi Lisa, hope the lovely Hassan is doing well
Guisburn, Shimsha is beautiful
Mandy |
"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 10:11:35 PM
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These sound amazing horses, but the big question would a Courthouse type arab make a good performance horse?
More pics of beautiful arabs, Guisbuin! |
    
Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
Edited by - Cinnypony on 25 Jan 2011 10:31:25 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 06:58:39 AM
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Sealeah is an advanced endurance mare, (2010 was not a vintage year due to several minor unrelated disasters) but she still won a 65km performance formula race at Cirencester 2010,in 2009 she was 2nd in the UK EGB awards for a horse carrying a male rider,3rd in the AHS performance awards,she won all awards for which she was eligible in our local group, she has competed very successfully in TREC and carried Harry from Wales to Jordan. As for Hassan(   Love him btw Mandy ) time will tell but I have bred him to do endurance. Mr Musgrave Clarke was a disciple of Lady Blunt and the Bedouin ideas on breeding. He did prefer small horses but felt endurance performance was THE proof of an Arab, as good endurance performance implied undoubted sound conformation and generosity. His mare Belka won the 1921(??) 300mile(?) endurance test (check this ... gotta go late for work!)
I think you are likely to get a sound tough horse but not necessarily height, Tomos and Minhe are more knowledgable than me though!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 07 Jan 2011 07:03:10 AM |
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Mysticsequin1
New Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 11:52:13 AM
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Most arabians of any bloodline are good saddlehorses it is the individual horse & his luck to be ridden by a good rider which will dictate how far he goes.
In Australia I think just about any bloodline has been used as a saddle horse inendurance, racing & dressage. Ann |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 3:06:10 PM
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Well, Musgrave-Clark was someone who RODE his horses, so I can't see Courthouse lines being other than performance horses!
One other thing they were noted for was the size and beauty of their eyes - qualities which are sadly seen less often today. I'm sure Alistair would be able to comment on this, with his personal experience
Keren |
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Claire
Silver Member
England
422 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 3:45:52 PM
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I believe my gelding has some rare courthouse and hough bloodlines- http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mirshid+al+nowak He is a very coppery bay in colour and has beautiful eyes (in my humble opinion!).
He has a very calm and laid back temperament and is happy to almost any activity, we have done low level jumping, pleasure rides and prelim dressage and showing and he has never once gone unsound. He is quite small in stature standing approx 14.2hh  |
      
Suffolk |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 3:58:46 PM
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you are right about the eyes
All very large and well set
Our part-bred Padma inherited her sire's eyes which were about the size of a 50p and very black
Joanna Maxwell used Courthouse stallions and got very good resulys including a World Champion mare! |
blue moon |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 4:09:41 PM
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During 1979 we were very fortunate to have on loan from Mrs MacVie in Berwickshire the very beautiful Raqqasa (Conkie) by Ragos x Calexa
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raqqasa
As you can see from her pedigree she has one or two crosses to Courthouse thru the horses Rheoboam and Champurrado so we looked around for a Courthouse stallion to blend with these bloodlines. Her first offspring with us was Santanna by Rheingold
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/santanna . Santanna sadly died without leaving too many stock. He was a wonderful correct horse with superb movement and a lovely head with huge eye although only 14.3 – ideal Courthouse. But you know the old saying – Use them before you lose them!!! Which is so very true.
Raqqasa’s second offspring was the mare Raqisa by Sorbus http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raqisa she produced all fillies bar one gelding son. Two of her daughters are still at the stud and one grand daughter by Toman. Budour http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/budour is very much in the Courthouse/Crabbet mould and we look forward to showing her in the not too distant future.
Will try and look up some photos to post here.
Sorry Rui I think I need your help in trying to post this photo of Raqisa from my flikr site.
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Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
Edited by - Jingo on 07 Jan 2011 4:23:22 PM |
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Rui
AL Admin
6761 Posts |
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Courthouse arabian - info
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)