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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:48:05 PM
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Love reading all this info. And looking at such beautiful horses!
Just wish my brain would retain! |
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ArabianGlimmer
New Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 9:56:16 PM
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I was reading the back and forth about white markings and I too, don't really understand the issue with it. Actually there is a wonderful stallion here in the U.S. that I think has been tragically under used because his owner is slightly ashamed of his piebald marking.
NYN Shangaza is one of the few Carmargue sons in the U.S. and in my opinion, one of the very best. His dam is a direct Khemosabi daughter who is out of a Baske-Tu daughter. Baske-Tu seemed to have a golden touch on his daughters.
At any rate, Shangaza picked up a dramatic marking over one side of his face that I believe makes his eye look blue. But I tell you, his body, head, legs, everything, he is an immaculate creature and I wish I could breed 10 mares to him this year, just to keep his lines going.
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"After all, the horse of the desert was, above all, a working companion - sound, reliable, and brave - and we should never lose sight of the attributes that brought the breed through many centuries in close companionship with man." - Jan Senneker |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 11:26:25 PM
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Good one of Nina Campbell Jingo
Her is our double Mehzeer colt - he was later sold and gelded by his new owner - Guisburn Ibn Mehzeer
Her is our Mehzeer daughter out with my OH 2010 - heavily Courthouse and Nuhra bloodlines
Guisburn Shameerah
Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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ArabianGlimmer
New Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 02:49:28 AM
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Originally posted by MinHeOriginally posted by ArabianGlimmer
I was reading the back and forth about white markings and I too, don't really understand the issue with it. Actually there is a wonderful stallion here in the U.S. that I think has been tragically under used because his owner is slightly ashamed of his piebald marking.
NYN Shangaza is one of the few Carmargue sons in the U.S. and in my opinion, one of the very best. His dam is a direct Khemosabi daughter who is out of a Baske-Tu daughter. Baske-Tu seemed to have a golden touch on his daughters.
At any rate, Shangaza picked up a dramatic marking over one side of his face that I believe makes his eye look blue. But I tell you, his body, head, legs, everything, he is an immaculate creature and I wish I could breed 10 mares to him this year, just to keep his lines going.
Khemosabi's line is responsible for producing some very dramatic sabinos - which just goes to show how silly the prejudice is. A good horse is a good horse - whatever the colour. Keren
Do you know what I think is extremely funny about all of that? There is a lady in the U.S. that breeds purebred sabinos with dramatic markings. I can tell you that she sold a weanling filly last year for $12k. While there are several other very fine Arabians with no markings but technically superior pedigrees from the standpoint of many breeders, that aren't moving on a quarter of that.
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"After all, the horse of the desert was, above all, a working companion - sound, reliable, and brave - and we should never lose sight of the attributes that brought the breed through many centuries in close companionship with man." - Jan Senneker |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 10:09:49 AM
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Re high white, I was last night by chance reading a letter from Mrs Garvin E Tankersley to the AHS news of autumn 1967.
She is contending that white legs and feet are a feature of many top class Arabs and should not be avoided or bred away from.
I quote ....
'' I do not feel that we should try to breed for dark feet.''
''I would love to hear comment on the following observation which several American breeders have made- that of colour linkage. We find in many lines that horses of one particular colour are superior to horses of another to a startling degree..........(re Rissalix blood)........the greys and chestnuts are far superior to the bays; the chestnuts being best of all''
This reflects my own experience wrt Crabbet/Courthouse /OE horses, I personally am not a great fan of chestnuts with high white per se... BUT all my horses are chestnut with moderate to extreme amounts of white ... the reason is as Keren so rightly points out colour is irrelevant, I look at THE HORSE, his conformation and character, it has been my experience that some of the best horses in these lines are chestnut with white (Mesaoud, Rodania etc to blame, well in fact to thank for being the progenitors of so many wonderful horses who happen to be chestnut with white.)
re Courthouse I have just found an article from 1968 , will read and report any points of interest  .
There are some threads wrt this stud on the Daughters of the wind blog as well.
Cheers
Lisa
Re-reading this I hope that I have not given the impression that I personally don't like bays ... the opposite is the case! More I was trying to say that though I don't LIKE high white it is extremely common (and very often with chestnut)in the best Crabbet/ Courthouse lines and I DO like good horses of these lines, so my horses have high white !!!
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Jan 2011 1:05:12 PM |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 11:34:22 AM
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Whats with the discussion on white markings ?.
I thought the thread was Courthouse
We had snow white greys of Courthouse breeding .
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blue moon |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 12:01:24 PM
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In THE light of Bazy Tankersley's comment: I know Lady W and probably Lady Anne and Wilfred Blunt were of the same opinion, as they believed that the chestnuts and greys produced better than the bays. They also commented that they never saw a black that they liked on their journeys. F A C T S. I'm stating facts. All in print.
Add the fact that the bay gene disappeared in Pure Crabbet horses in your country, and the story repeats itself. Now an effort is being made to reintroduce this bay gene in pure crabbets in GB . I feel that wrong choices have been made in the bloodlines. I've never been a fan of Banderol or of his sire Sindh ( Chestnut)by : SILVER VANITY X SILFINA). BUT then again who am I to comment. I know I will get caned for this, but I'm not alone in my view on those horses, although they too have their fans. I liked the bays that came through Royal Domino, a Blue Domino son out of an Irex Daughter.
Of course there has been a great resurgence in winning bays on the international scene, but for me nothing has changed, only fashion. This could be my Last Post (trumpet please: Daaah da da) |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 08 Jan 2011 12:13:26 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 12:08:59 PM
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Alistair, what is ''with'' the discussion on white markings is a conversation initiated by the 5th post on this thread. Admittedly my examples were Crabbet, but as you know Crabbet horses were the foundation of Courthouse. To state the obvious 'snow white' greys may also(or may not of course) have had a a lot of white as young horses! Further, I was quoting Mrs Tankersley, it goes without saying that some of the most lovely Crabbet horses, indeed Arab horses ever have been grey. As I said, colour itself is irrelevant the point being made was that certain colours may be linked to certain stamps of horse. This may make scientific sense in terms of gene loci position.
Cinnypony, I am sorry if I and others have gone off thread, back to Courthouse... I read the article from 1968.
It described some of Mr Musgrave Clarke's early life and adventures in Texas and New Mexico, including endurance riding feats.
A later example was his regular use of his stallion Mansur (14.3hh) to ride 52 miles to visit his friend , vet, Mr Bloxham, and back a day again a day later.
He was at the first ever meeting of the committee that established the AHS and was massively influential in the early history of the society but always turned down the honour of being president. He expresses his huge admiration and affection for Lady Blunt and says she is the best judge of Arabian horses that he ever knew, others he respected were Wilfred Blunt, Lady Wentworth (surprisingly generously considering her treatment of him),Lady Anne Lytton, George Ruxton and Reggie Summerhays. He said that he felt Bahram was the finest horse that he ever bred.
He did indeed win the 1921 300 mile endurance test on Belka. The interviewer asked him if it was true that he had refused Ł5,000 for her after the race ( Ł5,000 in 1921!!!!) 'yes' he replied 'I would not have taken Ł10,000 for her.'
The article also mentioned the large number of overseas visitors who had visited the stud from Spanish and Iraqi royalty to new breeeders from Australia and Argentina.
It pays tribute to the involvement of his wife Audrey and mentions his beautiful collection of art.
Toothlesss don't go!!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Jan 2011 12:26:31 PM |
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kathleen
Platinum Member
England
1835 Posts |
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misterei
Silver Member
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 12:47:17 PM
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This thread seems to cover both Courthouse and colour issues - interesting. I also have a book by R S Summerhays where he analysed the Crabbet Stud horses, and found in (almost) his words (i.e. paraphrased). The most common colour was Bay, as it was in the desert, followed by Chestnut, followed by Grey. Interesting as I have been to a lot of HOYS qualifiers over the last two years, loads of greys entered, and occasionally in spite of capability, being placed ahead of chestnuts and bays. I am hoping we will produce a bay next year, but will have to let nature take its course.
I am so pleased that Spearmint passed into the care of Al Waha, where he is so well looked after. We saw him a couple of years ago, and you can see something there a bit different and a bit special.
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Here they are
Emira......Mazie...Fharida.....Shahi......Mazie.....Saffee..Malika...Emira
More at www.purespiritarabians.com |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 7:02:58 PM
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Toothless, don't leave!
A lot of people enjoy your posts and the pictures of your beautiful mare.
As for the colour discussion everyone has their views (mine being that colour is the last of my concerns!) but as you said, you were simply stating the undeniable fact that grey and chestnut horses of Crabbet lines have been overwhelmingly more 'successful' than bays, and that despite an initial prejudice of the Blunts against grey and that high white is a feature of many of the best Crabbet lines.... hard to disagree with!
Cheers
Lisa
PS after I posted this the pic of your mare and foal came up ... my internet speed is prehistoric!
You can't stop posting ...I want to see that lovely filly grow up! |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 08 Jan 2011 7:06:44 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 7:24:11 PM
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Toothless - Lady W 'lost' the bay lines from Crabbet, so one suspects that her prejudice in favour of chestnut and grey may have been a slightly tongue-in-cheek utterance! She clearly did not despise bays as she went to the trouble and expense of re-importing a bay Basilisk line filly from the USA, which sadly did not breed on (no produce reg. with the AHS). Certainly the bays produced elsewhere by the Dajania line were all quality animals, as were the Courthouse bays.
Interestingly, it was a stallion of the lines of Musgrave-Clark's old friend Henry Babson that made the greatest impact as far as reintroducing bay (and brown) into the UK - and he traced back to Blunt horses, including Queen of Sheba, who may well be the source for the colour.
Keren |
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kathleen
Platinum Member
England
1835 Posts |
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zebedeedeb
Gold Member
England
516 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 9:32:57 PM
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| hi my little lad is one of mareschals grandsons, so therefore is of the darjeel line,, its lovely learning all about the history of these fantastic horses...his name is isnthelovely... indie to me ...deb |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 10:04:49 PM
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| Toothless you definitely cant disappear... |
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ArabianGlimmer
New Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 10:33:05 PM
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Apologies for getting off topic. I just saw a particular post and it touched on a fact that I've thought about a lot over the years. :)
Next time, should I respond with a new thread? |
"After all, the horse of the desert was, above all, a working companion - sound, reliable, and brave - and we should never lose sight of the attributes that brought the breed through many centuries in close companionship with man." - Jan Senneker |
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natntaz
Platinum Member
England
2919 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 10:34:26 PM
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Toothless, your opinions are always worth reading whether
we agree or disagree we should always have our opinions.
Misterei, I don't know enough about Courthouse lines but what
i will say is that my boy out of spearmint has presence to
burn and is the cheekiest horse i have ever owned. He has an
alluring personality and he is of a lovely quality. I am truly
grateful that he come into my life as i love him to bits he
has challenged me with his attitude but has given me great
joy at the same time |
   
Natalie Pix. Essex. Tariq ibn Radfan and Taroub |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 01:22:19 AM
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The LAST POST bit was said tongue in cheek, because I thought I would get blasted out of the water because of the comments I made.
I'm not prejudiced against bays ,only stating facts as I have read them made by some prominent people of the past.
As far as the number of bays at Crabbet well really its about type and quality not numbers; and it was Lady W who made the comments .
My first horse was a dark bay stallion as stated earlier. He caused quite a stir when I brought him into the state, because at that time there was a predominence of greys and white faced chestnuts.
I suppose it has a lot to do with what's going on in your life at the time. At the birth of R's filly I was so happy when this blazed face popped through the canal, and then to have 3 white socks capped it off.
This passion takes a lot out of me and I need some balance. I can't go crook at my family when I see them continuously on the mobile phone when I'm on the computer .
I know this is all off topic, but human beings wander everwhere in their thinking, and in black and white things have a habit of being taken the wrong way.
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 07:53:53 AM
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Thank you for all your kind comments about Spearmint. He is alive and well, still covering mares at the age of 29 – he loves the ladies.
When Mr and Mrs Oppe were alive, I tried to lease him but it fell through when she hired her own trainer. Then after the death of Mrs Oppe, whose husband had passed away before her, we heard that he was going to be sent as a teaser to a thoroughbred stud  .
Well with that news, it was action stations: phone calls and when it was a yes we could have him, we went to collect him – I think it was the same day!
Spearmint was like a forgotten horse so it is only in his older years that breeders have woken up to his very special and rare bloodlines. We are so lucky to own him.
Jane
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 06:20:09 AM
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A little more about Spearmint who is 100% Courthouse: he was bred by Mr and Mrs Oppe who bought his dam Sappho from the Maxwell’s, who had bought Sappho from Mr Musgrave Clark.
Sappho had produced Siwah for the Maxwell’s, Siwah being by Shamnar, owned and bred by Mr Musgrave Clark. The Oppe’s repeated the breeding so Spearmint is full brother to Siwah.
Siwah, I believe, was World Champion Mare and Spearmint himself was British National Champion Colt.
I hope I haven’t bored you!
Jane
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Courthouse arabian - info
