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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 12:54:36 PM
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Thanks for posting that pic of Amira Looli my boys grand dam, here is a picture of one of Amira Looli's sons my boys sire
El Kabah
What wonderful old bloodlines they were.
My lads dam lines were predomindantly Maxwell breeding which I also love and I think shold be treasured.
Janet
er, that picture didnt come out to good |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
Edited by - Kazzy on 18 Aug 2010 1:07:51 PM |
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Minty Arab
Silver Member
England
482 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 12:57:00 PM
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very interesting topic and i never tire of gazing at rusleema  or any of the others for that matter! monty and venus look fantastic!
i will try & put some pics on later, my three couldnt be more different in looks if they tried!! minty is very beautiful and has a real SE seahorse head (pity about some of the other bits though ) sunne looks identical to rusleema above (well she would do wouldnt she! rusleema is her daughter) and has a very pretty head but much less extreme than minty and she has much better conformation a much stouter more workman like arab, poppy my new youngster has a very pretty head but its much shorter in length to the other two........but all of them look so different from the arabs i started out on as a teenager......i must find those pics!
loving this topic
Emma |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 1:04:10 PM
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I think one of the first things we notice is the length of leg on some modern Arabs today. I for one have always gone for a shorter cannon bone even in modern Arabs possibly due to my heritage from hunting days etc?
I'm not convinced the longer leg is right or wrong it just depends if it makes the overall picture of an Arab right.
I think it's all about balance with breeding and what we create, I'm trying hard not to to teach granny's to suck eggs on here
We tried over the years to attain our ideal and in doing so used different lines to achieve this. I personally feel the modern Arab is in danger of becoming too leggy, too narrow and lacks any depth of girth. We do need just a bit of heart room.!!!
I love a pretty head but don't need a huge dish to achieve pretty, and love good free movement, high quality and love a straight up tail carriage.
So these are my tastes. We all differ and if we didn't life would be so boring and our Arabs would all look the same
We have many breeders far more knowledgeable and 'better' than me on here so if this is what modern man wants from an Arab then who am i to criticize them?
I can critique my own horse and want to say if you look at the neck set on the Monty pic with Amanda, his neck comes out a bit higher from his chest, he carries himself naturally more upright so when posed in a modern way it is not too difficult for him to look 'modern'!! We wouldn't have been able to pose him this way if he were Golden Cavalier or Amira Looli the older Arabs.
Thanks for reading..x |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 3:27:30 PM
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Have to say regarding Aldebar(Alderbaran) and Platforma, conformationally, much prefer Alderbar
My observations and IMO Aldebar is well put together
Superb limbs with short cannons and good flat bone. Powerful hindquarters (the engine)deep through the girth with good topline, great length of rein and a laid back shoulder. Yes plain in the head (you cant ride a head) and thick through the throat latch.
Conformationally,the picture overall, though being overweight making him look a bit stuffy, is pleasing on the eye and a better bridle, would certainly make a difference. He looks as if he would be able to go all day!!
Platforma....Yes a much nicer head and refined throatlatch. However, IMO rather shorter neck and inclined to be upright in the shoulder. Long cannons lacking in bone. Weak overlong hind leg and quarters also lacking in power. The whole picture, conformationally not pleasing on the eye...would never choose to use a stallion such, however illustrious his pedigree, my personal opinion of course
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Offira
Platinum Member
England
1583 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 3:36:39 PM
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Ooh Pashon that second photo must be a Fari mare I had one that looked just like that! 
Interesting thread. |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 3:57:31 PM
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| 'That' bridle is like Harry Potters cloak.....it doesn't actually exist ;) !!! |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 5:00:56 PM
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Really interesting topic Often have a similar discussion regarding dog breeding and sometimes the subject of type v's correctness can be a difficult one.
Agree with Babs re Aldebar-really like him as a horse, particularly his front-he has a well laid back shoulder, which puts his front legs back under him and gives him adequate forechest. As far as "type" goes though, agree totally that he could be a nice anglo or Partbred as he doesn't scream "Arab"-so "correct", yes-"typey", no!
The shoulder is a very complicated part of any animal as it involves two bones, the scapula and the humerus meeting at the shoulder joint. I have observed that quite a few of the modern arabs have quite a short, upright humerus which causes their front legs to be too far out infront of them, giving a straight up and down appearance. In dogs this can certainly cause a high-stepping front action, so surely the same is true of a horse?
Edited to include shoulder diagrams! Sorry for confusing some people with scientific names! The humerus in the horse is not the forearm, it is part of the shoulder.
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Edited by - Maramoo on 20 Aug 2010 12:00:26 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 5:31:47 PM
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| Originally posted by Delyth
If you look at some of the old photo's collected by Judi Forbis in Egypt mares like Bukra oozed quality. The pics of A. Bint Bukra, A. Bint Mabrouka and A. Ibn Halima when they were shipped show they were quality horses. I love looking at the old vintage shots and, for me, looking at our true heritage from Egyptian bloodlines ;)
I have to say Linda that is some hum-dinger of a vintage shot !!!
PS Keren - Mae West was stunning too !!
That's my point - Mae West was stunning, but today's men would rather have Kylie!!
There is still a big technology gap between Judith Forbis' photos and the one of Aldebaran (AHS name, Aldebar in US). Pre-war, professional horse photographers primarily used large cumbersome cameras which required glass-plate negatives. The emulsion speeds were SLOW, so it was virtually impossible to get a formal portrait shot (as is the one of Aldebaran) without the horse being practically asleep - if it had moved or shown any animation, the shot would have come out blurred.
Go forward twenty years or so to the Forbis shots, and photography has changed radically - it's the sort of photography we are familiar with today. Lightweight pocket cameras using 35mm film with much faster emulsion speeds allow for far more informal snap-shots - and you can take more of the same subject without ruining yourself in materials costs. So whereas the Aldebaran shot might be the 'one and only' taken, the Forbis shots could easily have been the best one taken on a whole film.
"The camera never lies' is one of the most inaccurate statements ever made - it might not lie, but it doesn't tell the whole truth either.
Henry Babson was the owner and breeder of some of the world's best and most typey Arabians - the fact that he acquired Aldebaran shows he must have been an exceptional horse. True, his offspring were eventually weeded out from the Babson programme, but so were ALL the non-Egyptian horses. In fact, Henry Babson culled horses that most people would have given their eye teeth for!
The Dwarka/Algol line has been one of the most successful English sire lines - it must have been a good one for Lady Wentworth to import it to Crabbet!
Keren |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 6:35:30 PM
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Keron , as you seem to be constantly picking other people up and quoting what they say , here is one for you firstly you wrongly named the horse Algol who
was in fact Aldebars son,
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the first photo (Algol) in putting the horse a modern show bridle would improve the look of his head immensely.
next you try and pick me up by saying Aldebar's name was Aldebaren , well he did start out as Aldebaran , but his name was changed in the states to Aldebar as there was already an Aldebaran. ( which I believe is the name of a star Constellation, Nit picking? maybe
, but its just what you delight in doing all the time ! |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 8:53:37 PM
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Though there are fab pictures being posted i think it unfair to make photographic comparisons in type betwwen mature/veterans and very youngstock, they all thicken up when they get older and conditioning methods of today make a huge difference. Sorry to point this out but for the newbies sake who are gleaning information from forums like this it needs to be |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 10:25:01 PM
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I agree entirely that photographs do not always show the whole picture. It is much better to see any animal in the flesh-particularly a breed where temperament is of utmost importance. I think Lynda chose two very well-made arabs for her original post and despite problems with vintage photos and unfashionable bridles it is clear to see the greater refinement in head and neck type of Monty-I don't think in any lifetime he will coarsen to a point where he loses this!!. It is also clear to see the many virtues of Aldebar, who I really admire.
I think squabbling over photos is somewhat missing the original point of this topic. Personally I prefer the construction of the Babson and Crabbet lines, but can see the benefits of combining this with a more exotic head type-the trick is to achieve the best of both worlds! Something that Monty appears to have embodied very well. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 01:56:13 AM
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Yes, blonde moment there - thinking of his sire! However, it is *correct* to refer to him as Aldebaran in the UK, as that is his registered name here. As someone with a long standing interest in Courthouse/Babson, I am well aware why the name change! If that is all you can find to niggle at, then my other points must have some validity.
Sue makes an interesting point when she says "who am I to decide what the modern Arab should look like?" Actually Sue, it is breeders with your *experience* who should be making that decision, and not people with a lack of understanding of equine physiology and biomechanics who just like a pretty head. As someone else has pointed out, the longer leg too often goes with a shallow heartgirth and a poorly articulated shoulder, meaning the loss of that lovely flowing action that is a pleasure to look at - and, more importantly, to ride.
Amir Looli produced one of the most exotic and under-rated stallions of the end of the 20thc in El Kabah. He had a stunning but non over-exaggerated head, ENORMOUS black eyes, such as you seldom see in the breed, and drop dead action. Yet I wonder how many people in this thread would write her off the same way they are discounting Aldebaran?
To see what happens when physiology and biomechanics go out of the window, and "artistic impression" become the only guide, you have only got to look at the tragic cripples that fill the QH in-hand ring in the US. Horses with virtually no angulation at the hock, massive quarters, yet with feet the size of a Sec A. And these horses are deliberately bred to look like this - riding them is EXPLICITLY out of the question. The result is that many can marely move without problems by the time they are 4 - but that doesn't matter, because all the breeders/showers want is something that suits their visual ideal as a youngster. It doesn't matter what happens to the poor things when they get older. Just take a look at this for example - http://www.macriffik.com/showring.htm - a multi-champion! The feet on this aren't as bad as some (check out fuglyhorse for worse examples) but look at that hock and those weedy, tied-in forelegs!
IMO, breeding sound HEALTHY horses that can function properly is not a matter of personal 'taste', but of ethics and horse welfare. Changing the Arab from the functional, supreme riding animal the bedouins developed to a pretty picture horse is something we do at our peril.
Keren |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 01:57:04 AM
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Yes, blonde moment there - thinking of his sire! However, it is *correct* to refer to him as Aldebaran in the UK, as that is his registered name here. As someone with a long standing interest in Courthouse/Babson, I am well aware why the name change! If that is all you can find to niggle at, then my other points must have some validity.
Sue makes an interesting point when she says "who am I to decide what the modern Arab should look like?" Actually Sue, it is breeders with your *experience* who should be making that decision, and not people with a lack of understanding of equine physiology and biomechanics who just like a pretty head. As someone else has pointed out, the longer leg too often goes with a shallow heartgirth and a poorly articulated shoulder, meaning the loss of that lovely flowing action that is a pleasure to look at - and, more importantly, to ride.
Amir Looli produced one of the most exotic and under-rated stallions of the end of the 20thc in El Kabah. He had a stunning but non over-exaggerated head, ENORMOUS black eyes, such as you seldom see in the breed, and drop dead action. Yet I wonder how many people in this thread would write her off the same way they are discounting Aldebaran?
To see what happens when physiology and biomechanics go out of the window, and "artistic impression" become the only guide, you have only got to look at the tragic cripples that fill the QH in-hand ring in the US. Horses with virtually no angulation at the hock, massive quarters, yet with feet the size of a Sec A. And these horses are deliberately bred to look like this - riding them is EXPLICITLY out of the question. The result is that many can marely move without problems by the time they are 4 - but that doesn't matter, because all the breeders/showers want is something that suits their visual ideal as a youngster. It doesn't matter what happens to the poor things when they get older. Just take a look at this for example - http://www.macriffik.com/showring.htm - a multi-champion! The feet on this aren't as bad as some (check out fuglyhorse for worse examples) but look at that hock and those weedy, tied-in forelegs!
IMO, breeding sound HEALTHY horses that can function properly is not a matter of personal 'taste', but of ethics and horse welfare. Changing the Arab from the functional, supreme riding animal the bedouins developed to a pretty picture horse is something we do at our peril.
Keren |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 05:39:19 AM
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Amira Looli, is/was a very beautiful, typey mare. If you look at her front legs and those of Alderbaran they are straight (from side on). Many of the modern winners are very obviously back at the knee (doesn't mean a fig in the ring apparently).
One other point, Halter success comes cheap in terms of time and starts in foal class',yearlings etc; and how many of them succeed under saddle. "Top" halter horses are at stud at 2yrs and milked for frozen semen immediately. Whereas success under saddle means a great investment in years of work and expense. The mare MAIAD is a magnificent mare,and in my opinion as good as I've seen. I would prefer her to many of the 'newer types' that are a lot narrower, shallower, and have a 'long hooky neck'.
I rarely comment on foals or youngsters because what they end up as is somewhat unpredictable. I purchased my mare because I liked the look of her parents as adults, and the look of the horse I had lined up for her.If I had known what a circus the Arabian horse scene had become in the 30 yrs I was out of it and the stallion I saw and liked very much was of doubtful fertility I wouldn't have bothered. |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 19 Aug 2010 05:47:10 AM |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 06:40:33 AM
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I've placed 2 picts that I believe give an idea of the correct extension in forward movement of the arabian horse. Sorry I don't have any videos. The first is of my mare Rusleema taken a few years ago and the other is of an Australian National Champion River Oak Imprint whom I hope to use next year. Imprint's sire was the "Australian Moving Machine" and Australian National Champion Arjai Summitt, who had International Champion RALVON PILGRIM on both sides of his pedigree.  .
The angle that the upper arm makes with the free elbow is of importance for good extension. The elbow should be free of the body and forward, so that when the horse is standing the forelegs are straight up and down and not angled backward under the body.Amira Looli's legs are more upright and better placed than Platforma's.
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Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 19 Aug 2010 06:53:34 AM |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 07:42:42 AM
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Lovely pictures Toothless, I love Rusleema. When I was referring to "straight up and down" I was not referring to the leg, which of course should be straight!!! I was refering to shoulder angulation. The well-made horses mentioned here such as Rusleema, Maiad and Aldebar all have fantastic fronts. I know that a lot of my terminology comes from studying dogs, but there really are many parallels to be made. I am not a newbie to the world of arabs, I am a complete outsider I do not breed nor even own one I have a real interest in anatomy and breeding and do not have a tribal axe to grind . A good horse is a good horse regardless of its pedigree and origin. Keren I completely agree with many of the points you make. A good head is simply the "icing on the cake" and should not be sought at the expense of soundness and correctness. It need not be extreme either! Pashon's chestnut foundation mare is stunning as is Rusleema. I have struggled to find good drawings to demonstrate what I am talking about, but the pencil drawings at the bottom of the page on the following link shows good and poor shoulder angulation in boxers. This is what I mean by putting the front legs back under them! http://www.worldwideboxer.com/PAGE4.html |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 08:19:07 AM
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Though there are fab pictures being posted i think it unfair to make photographic comparisons in type between mature/veterans and very youngstock, they all thicken up when they get older and conditioning methods of today make a huge difference.
Actually they don't all 'thicken up' when they get older! the beauty of the Arabian is they 'dry out' as they get older.
I think Lynda is waiting for more people to post comparisons on here, I'm sure she would be delighted. Sorry to say I have 'lost' a huge amount of my early photos after scanning and painstakingly transferring them to a computer, it crashed and most were lost!
So much for the digital age.
Some more pics and helpful positive comments surely is the best way to help newbies?
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Edited by - SueB on 19 Aug 2010 08:22:49 AM |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 08:36:44 AM
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| There is so much negativity. What ever active Arabian breeders seem to do is wrong in these discussions. If you show horses, the way you do it is wrong. There are apparantly horses being bred that JUST have pretty heads !! I think it is time that people view our 'show' horses with a more realistic and positive outlook.....we have some bloody good horses !! Times change that's all !! |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 08:55:07 AM
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As to photography, there is no doubt a very beautiful horse can be made to look plain in a bad photo I can personally vouch for that, having done it! Lady Wentworth comments in her book that she did not publish some photos that were sent her by other breeders 'in their own interest' as the photos did their horses so little justice. Age , tack and production of course will also alter a 'snapshot in time' image of a horse. Having said that Lynda's point is valid Aldebar(an) is clearly the plainer horse of the two, by some distance, production and photography notwithstanding.
I however believe that to judge any horse, particularly an Arab he/she must be seen moving (The 1952 and 1953 Crabbet Parade videos are a good example....some truly lovely horses), preferably met in the flesh, (there is an quality,an aura of pride, class and gentleness exuded by a good Arab that is impossible to capture in a photo or video)and finally I believe that only by riding an Arab can he be FULLY appreciated. The hallmark of Arab movement being light manoeuverability and the smooth floating canter, the pace prefered by the Bedouin, who very rarely ride at trot. The Arab obviously has a beautiful floating trot but he is not, unlike for example the Welsh Cob, a 'trotting' breed, he is a horse who has through his long history been ridden primarily at canter.
I agree with other posters Pashon's chestnut foundation mare is lovely, as to 'what comes next?' (as Pashon asked) if horses exactly like her were bred for ever more that would be OK by me
(obviously though I have only seen the photo of her head so this is all I am refering to.)
I love beautiful horses but to me that is beauty, not ENTIRELY type, type will always, in my mind, encompass intelligence, loyalty, gentleness, toughness, endurance and agility AS WELL AS beauty. So back to Lynda's point, she is right imo, the second horse is the more refined and beautiful, ie has the APPEARANCE of having more Arab 'type' but all the other factors which make up type cannot be judged from a photo.
I know that I sound incredibly pedantic but I will always remember Hazaim Alwair's reporting asking a Bedouin breeder why a particular strain was so celebrated ... the reply being 'blood is never spilt on their backs'. That criterion will encompass all the other virtues, beauty aside, that for me make up type. Sadly (!) horses are not tested in Ghazus today, endurance being the nearest test that we have, but it's still not a bad mental exercise when considering an Arab to ask would I ride this horse and trust my life to him in war?
I think it is important to keep faith with the original purpose of a breed to maintain it's integrity, to return to the example of dogs as I have said before, the only danger a bull would be in from a Bulldog today would be of dying laughing. Only it really is not funny when an animal is barely able to breathe.
I am NOT saying that being beautiful and 'typey' is anything other than a very good thing or that beauty in any way precludes the other virtues... far from it, I know for example the high value that Lynda places on true Arab temperament, but just feel we should be wary of selecting for only narrow criteria in a horse that is superlative in so many other aspects, if we lose these we have lost the essence of the breed just as surely as if we lost it's beauty.
Very sorry everyone but I so admire the character, toughness and 'dreamride' quality of the Arab that I can't help flagging it up  when 'type' is being discussed.
cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 19 Aug 2010 09:27:36 AM |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 09:02:43 AM
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I don't know too much about dogs. All i know is that the best dog is the wolf. I have owned two Rottweilers; magnificently tempered and balanced individuals. I see what we have done to some of the canine breeds.
Similarly, why should an Arabian horse have a head like a gazelle and the tail carriage of one? Because human beings over the centuries have decided that's what they liked. A straighter profile is better for endurance. And why that ugly lump between the eyes in some arab horses ( Jibbah). A dead-set level croup and the desire to achieve it has resulted in horses with shorter croups and wrongly angled pelvis , the later causing problems with breeding and the inability to use the hindquarters properly; no power from behind,resulting in the horse dragging itself along with the front legs. The croup should be long and RELATIVELY level when compared to other breeds. Kick a Pug in the behind and it's eyes will drop out. There is a connection between STRUCTURE and FUNCTION.
When is enough enough-never apparently? And no matter what the physiologists ,anatomists ,and movement experts say no one will take any notice. Look at the quarter horse. See what the judges of Arabian breed classes are doing- what they say in their seminars and what they do in the ring are different. |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 09:30:38 AM
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Toothless the moving pictures show the correct movement the Arabian should have IMO it should appear not to bend too much at the knee.
Keron I could spend all day pointing out your often blinkered views , but I am not that small minded.
Just the opposite I have read and adore anything to do with the Arabian history including Crabbett, but I am not apposed to moving forward in the breed. if you look at the two pictures I used you will SEE we have moved forward.
you seek to belittle anyone who has a vision of the desert bred horse that is not in keeping with your own idea's. you can go and QUOTE whoever you like WE the responsible breeders ( and read my lips here ) do not bred for prettiness alone, we breed to carry into the future ALL the attributes that set aside the Arabian from ALL other breeds, and for that it should LOOK like an Arabian, carry itself like an Arabian, have the temperament of an Arabian have strong hard bone of the Arabian and despite not looking like a heavy cob be able to carry a man or woman all day ! now if you want to stay in the past by all means stay there , but dont rubbish everyone else who has a dream ! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 09:37:52 AM
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I too wish we would just have a sensible discussion about whatever on here, it never happens and free falls into nastyness.
But what I have noticed is that the majority of those that show in-hand are often hit over the head with a very large hammer.
This is such a shame, we do need breeders to breed and people to show in-hand without these we have no future!!
We have enough diversity amongst the breed to cater for all types. I could reel of many great studs that do in-hand, ridden and even drive their arabs and they still win at Malvern!
The Arab is a wonderful breed it compensates for it's faults and still comes out on top.
All that happens in the showring is one person (normally) is trying to find their best horse on that day. I think the over riding factor in any horse we try to improve on is summed up in one word......Quality.
I must muck out........ |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 09:41:51 AM
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Don`t have any Arabs but happy to post pics of my Homebred Anglo Stallion 50% Arab/50% TB and other Anglos, whom example the conformation we consider desirable in a Show/Ridden/Competition horse and yes.....we do like a pretty head and excellent temperament
 Stallion
 Yearling
 Mare
 Yearling
 9yr old
 yearling filly
IMO the filly above has the most outstanding limbs
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 19 Aug 2010 1:37:05 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
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Type? ...........pix
. A very well respected international breeder and judge of another breed asked the other day to photograph the limbs of a very ''beautiful'' and valuable Arab because they were so appaling that he wanted to use them as an illustration in lectures that he gives on conformation.