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george
Gold Member
Wales
1353 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 06:58:39 AM
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Minhe, I also said EXCEPT for the OTT behaviour of the few, shall I enlighten you as to what I call OTT? I assumed most people would understand what I meant, tree shaking, hollering and most other things apart from the clapping and cheering  I happen to love the atmosphere, and I am not going to apologise for that. Since reading some of the posts there is one thing that strikes home as common sense, the youngsters who attend these shows get used to a lot of noise,(even the local ones have kids, brolly's ect) I totally agree that this goes a long way toward training a horse for it's future as a safe riding horse, and as myself and my partner have started many horses that have led "sheltered" lives or hardly gone out of the yard, I can fully appreciate the importance of getting them used to lots of sights and sounds at a young age, I myself am very pleased that Nabil is becoming quite used to the stimulation, he is going to be a very safe stallion to ride and if a bit of noise will make him show off then I can't wait to privileged enough to be riding him when he does.  |
George xxx
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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karen s
Gold Member
United Kingdom
728 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 08:07:13 AM
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| personally i dont think shaking a bag whooing clapping is abuse or cruel its not doing harm to the horse bit of noise beating the crap out of a horse is abuse and cruel if you have a problem with a bit of noise dont go to the shows some horses need a bit of some thing to get them going but abuse is a strange word to use |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 08:58:16 AM
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Back to basics. Tricia Johnson's article wasn't an "anti in-hand" argument. It wasn't an "anti crowd enjoying themselves" argument. It wasn't an "anti techniques to get a horse to perform" argument. It was quite simply about witnessing rules being broken and a comment that the fact the rules had to be so specific spoke volumes about the attitudes prevalent in this particular breed.
Each breed society and discipline has its own rules. They are there to ensure the enjoyment, safety and welfare of all concerned. The difference seems to be that in other disciplines, when the rules are broken or breached, the control systems swing into action. I know a lot of people disagree with eventing, and that's absolutely fine, and we can argue the pros and cons for hours but the bottom line is that if a rule is breached within eventing, the consequences are immediate, thorough and just - and sometimes very public. It is only recently that British Eventing stopped publishing a list of disciplined riders, citing the details of the breach, the venue and the exact article that had been breached.
Within the Arabian showing world, for whatever reason, the control mechanisms don't seem to work. Many ALiners have commented on witnessing clear and distinct breaches of rules - and I don't mean crowd noise or bag waving, I mean deliberate and targetted outside interference.
For those of us who have been reading H&H for many years (over 30 years in my case), you will know that show reports concentrate on the actual show results and the individual stories behing the winners. "Talking Points" is not a show report - it is the journalist's individual view of what they felt about the show, or snippets of comments. Tricia Johnson has spoken out in the past about use of draw reins for ponies and how she disagrees with them. BSPS didn't get up in arms. In this case, she witnessed something she thought at odds with general aspects of showing, checked the rules, saw that the activity must be widely practised because specific rules have been constructed to stop it - and then saw rules being broken. She didn't comment on Arabian in-hand showing to condemn it, she has questioned why at our National Show, the rules (printed in the back of every catalogue) were broken and why no-one seemed to mind.
Simples:
"horses for courses" and "rules is rules"
I'm certainly not criticising in-hand showing and I'm a little disconcerted that so many people have become so sensitive and immediately assumed the article was getting at Arabian in-hand showing. In fact, the defence of in-hand showing (when no defence was actually needed) is so vehement in some cases that one might say "the lady doth protest too much"
Well just off now to load a stallion and two mares into an unpartitioned, untaxed wagon with bald tyres and drive the wrong way down the M6. Well why shouldn't I? I have Arabian horses so I can break the rules!
To me, it's that simple - sorry!
(Edited to add - oh, and by the way, I've been disciplined at one event when Evie was competing with Heron. As she left the start box, I yelled "Fly the Flag" like I always do. It was very politely, but very firmly pointed out to me by the starter that that constituted outside interference. Now I have to shout it as the final count down is happening, not after the word "Go". It was humiliating because people were laughing - but you know what, the starter was right and I had to take it on the chin)
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Edited by - templars on 14 Aug 2010 09:03:48 AM |
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K8E
Gold Member
United Kingdom
677 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 09:09:57 AM
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ok im going to take my turn in this whirlwind post......
Personally I thought the National show was one of the best i have been to in all the years I have attended (including as a child)
I thought the show was filled with atmosphere and loved how we were all allowed to show our appreciation for our fabulous breed!!!
BUT Before you all jump down my throat and try and tar me with a brush I do want to discuss something that I thought was quite worrying.......
I was sat with my mum in the grandstand and also happened to have a very respected lady judge beside me. We watched and were nearly brought to tears by what was infront of us in the ring....
A horse that was not being shown by his usual handler absolutely petrified rearing, eyes rolling, running backwards, sideways, practically anyway he could to try and get away. It was such a shame to see this beautiful horse so scared. I looked down at the catalogue to about the 8th page in and this is what it read......
WARNING TO HANDLERS ENTERED IN THE SHOW. The Arab Horse Society and the Show Manager reminds exhibitors that any horse displaying signs of fear or distress WILL be asked to leave the ring and if neccessary, further disciplinary action will be take by the members of the Disciplinary Committee and the organisers of the Show.
My words to both the judge sat beside me and my mum were I'm gogint to do what everyone always says you should do and report this now NOT publish my complaint all over the internet when the show is done and finished. I walked round to the DC's and asked why nothing was being done. my reply is as follows....
"We don't see him in distress as he isnt/wasn't trembling"
This statement is outrageous what about all the others signs of fear and distress i have above pointed out!!! you can't win they tell you to report abuse when u see it or as it is happening and when you do f**k all gets done!! sorry but this whole article / opinions on the show thing has caused so much frustration !!!
As for the noise I dont think ABUSE is the correct term and don't think it is fair to call it ABUSE!!!
there is far worse going on in other aspects of showing but like already said its the Arabs that are quite clearly the main target!!
Personally it upsets me the usual crowd have to put such a low on eveyones hard work ie the exhibitors, show organisers etc. The National Show is our holiday as well as a fantastic 3 day event to show off our breed.
As for the rules I have mentioned on the other topic in the showing forum it is no good slagging off the AHS for not enforcing their rules when at our National Show the ECAHO Rules over-ride them. there are too many contradictions between the 2 sets of rules!!!
going to get off my soap box now as I'm off to go and RIDE my loopy,scared and petrified IN-HAND show mare Amellia  |
   
Katie Gore
Europa Arabians
Email: katiejgore@hotmail.com |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 09:15:55 AM
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What has to be taken into consideration by the bag waving, stone rattling, tree waving etc etc Exhibitors IS....many Arabians are not subject to this sort of stimulation and can be terrified by such action!! A terrified horse in an enclosed collecting ring is an accident waiting to happen.....with all the consequences that entails.
No one is saying such stimulation is abusive or cruel...and fine if this is the way you train your horse....do it at home...do not bring such methods to the shows and into the collecting rings
Why should the majority have their showing experiences spoiled by the few who choose to blatantly flout the AHS Rules!!
If the AHS do not make a stand on this issue and the DC`s allow Exhibitors to carry on ignoring rules, where is this all going to end?.....someone getting killed??...now there would be a headline for the press
Surely, the appreciative applause is sufficient to
stimulate even the most laid back Arabian to show off in the arena, so why are these extremes to hype up, necessary??
Consideration and respect for our fellow exhibitors and their horses......PLEASE!! Come on AHS, get it sorted!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 14 Aug 2010 09:29:52 AM |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 09:41:18 AM
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Well I have been following this thread and feel the need to responds it seems to be the same old negative people again and again, personally I think they are being far more damaging to the Arabian Horse than any bag shaking or cheering, there is a saying " Never sh-t on your own door step" if you have a complaint make it in right way AHS, ECAHO they are there to make and enforce rules, but do not reduce yourself to bringing negative reporting to the Arabian World.
Please H & H give our Nationals the report it deserves. |
  
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
Edited by - Tracey@ET on 14 Aug 2010 2:52:12 PM |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 09:55:29 AM
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Having read all of the previous comment I would only say that if indeed rules are/have been breached then it is up to the governing society to enforce them BEFORE bad behaviour gets completely out of control. Everyone has a collective responsibility for other people's health and safety at these shows and events. It would be far better IMO to be seen to be governing ourselves properly than to allow the deterioration of our shows to continue to such a state that another governing body is put in place to enforce rules that nobody may welcome.
Atmosphere is a good thing but we, and most of all the horses, must be kept safe. JMO. |
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mirage
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1457 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:06:35 AM
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I always remember going to a County Show with a yearling colt and we were surrounded by toddlers and prams, umbrellas, carriage and shires, a hunt complete with full pack of hounds, a helicopter, a fun fair, artillery and a display by gladiators and chariots and that was just on the way to the ring. A little tree shaking (happens on a windy day anyway??) or a plastic bag would be nothing compared to that?
We do all our preparation at home so that when we take a horse to a show they are prepared for all the new noises, smells and sights so they can still express themselves and enjoy showing off in the show ring.
In my opinion, the article in the Horse and Hound on the National show was very poor journalism - no mention of Anglos or part bred, and no mention of the purebred fillies at all. The Horse and Hound are turning their mag into a rag and I certainly will not be talking to Tricia Johnson if I see her at a show or buying the Horse and Hound again.
Sally
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:13:20 AM
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Is it only Tesco's carrier bags that scare the living daylights out of our horses or can I use a Marks and Spencers one?
Mmm must try and chase him round the field and find out!!
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:27:12 AM
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Well said Suelin!!! feelings are obviously running high, and sniping at one another will not sort this problem out, despite debate after debate it seems to occur every year. It is, and should always be, up to the governing body to adhere to the rules it lays down, and if that means more DC`s then thats the way to go. I just think it is so sad when grown people have to be watched over like little children because of some exhibitors silly idea of what constitutes showing an arab The horse and hound are only underlining what DOES go on at the national show, like it or not!
You have a very beautiful breed in the arabian horse with such an air of superiority and dignity, shame some owners fall short of their charges!!!
I am not going to post anymore on this thread as i feel enough has been said and feelings are starting to get out of hand, that in itself is an insult to such a noble animal!!! |
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K8E
Gold Member
United Kingdom
677 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:29:52 AM
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| For the 3rd time AHS rules are overruled by ECAHO rules at all ecaho affiliated shows!!!! How many more times it's nothing to do the has needing to enforce their rules you need to write ECAHO but you won't get anywhere as it's the European way of showing!!! |
Katie Gore
Europa Arabians
Email: katiejgore@hotmail.com |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:33:35 AM
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Why is everyone condemning H&H? For years there have never been reports on anything other than the showing. The dressage, show jumping and Western have all been ignored. For years, those of us who do performance disciplines have accepted it and realised that we would always be the bridesmaid never the bride. It's hurt a bit but it's life. The Anglos and Parts have never got the same coverage as the pures. Why, this year, is everyone suddenly saying "oh, and there wasn't any comment about Anglos and Parts?" There never has been!!!!!!
The showing fraternity has always taken pride of place in H&H and there have been many, many postings on here about "lovely photo x of you and your horse y in Horse and Hound" No-one complains when praise is being given.
One negative comment - not article, comment - and everyone is throwing their toys out of the pram. And why? For goodness sake, we are posting on the WORLD WIDE WEB, heavens only knows who reads what we all post from the safety and seclusion of our own homes when we forget just how big an audience we are reaching. One journalist does what her job is and passes comment on one aspect of something at one show and all hell breaks loose. And let's be absolutely honest here, she hasn't said anything that hasn't been said umpteen times and by umpteen people on here I would imagine this forum reaches a far wider audience than Horse and Hound. What we post on here is there for the whole world to see.
Does that mean when someone posts on here that goes against what others believe that people will throw down the gauntlet and "never read AL again"
This same journalist led the condemnation of rolllkur. Just like lots on here did.
It was one person's opinion published in a predominantly UK based publication. This forum has lots of people's opinions (often saying exactly the same thing) published in a world wide medium - and there for all eternity!
If everyone is so convinced Tricia Johnson is the devil incarnate, invite her to the next show (Towerlands??) and demonstrate and educate. Explain things to her - put things in context. But you know what, looking from the outside in, she hasn't said anything that hasn't already been said, argued and debated on here for the last ten years! |
www.eviepeel.com |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 10:49:57 AM
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Well if that is the way it is to continue, whereby ECAHO rules overide AHS Rules.....WHAT IS THE POINT
In conclusion, all I can say is....carry on then and don`t snipe at H & H or its reporters for giving an account of their experience at our National Show
Methinks, entries and spectators will continue to decrease year on year, such a shame, so be it!! 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 14 Aug 2010 10:56:09 AM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 11:41:51 AM
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It looks as though rules are totally open to interpretation.
In this instance the ECAHO rules are being referred to and they take precedence over AHS rules.
A couple of years ago when ridden horses were forced to be shown in hand at the show championship, ECAHO rules were overridden by AHS rules.
Maybe it's on a class by class basis which will cause even more complication and will mean two sets of rules at one show and a horse may be competing under ECAHO rules for one class and then under AHS rules for anothe class.
Or in this instance, is it assumed that ECAHO trumped AHS for all classes (including Crabbet) and if that's the case, then why did another show opt to apply the rules on a class by class basis.
Methinks Tricia may have inadvertently opened a can of worms!
Edited to say:
Think I've got it now.
A show can be run under two sets of rules.
Those classes which are run under ECAHO rules (ie the breeding in-hand classes) must comply with ECAHO rules.
Other classes, ie ridden, amateur, Crabbet, performance are run under AHS rules.
Where a Championship is for ECAHO classes, the ECAHO rules apply and likewise where a Championship is for non ECAHO classes, AHS rules apply. Where ECAHO and non ECAHO horses come up against one another for, say, a show champion, that's not an ECAHO class and so AHS rules apply.
Just for information though, these are the rules that apply to ECAHO classes:
33. excessive whipping, shanking, extensive stimulation by noise or intimidation, excessive circling of the horse, use of electric shock devices or infliction of pain by any means is forbidden in all parts of the show ground or stable areas at all times.
34. Above events are punishable by the issue of Red/Yellow cards
I guess it all boils down to the definition of "excessive" and given that that is open to interpretation (one person's excessive is another person's acceptable), then the article is perfectly justified because it was not a show report, it was a show reporter's opinion and her opinion was - it was excessive. Presumably she has based that view on her vast experience as an equestrian journalist. To those who show regularly, it may not seem excessive; to those new to Arabian showing, it possibly does seem excessive. And that's the crux. Non Arabian people are viewing our techniques as excessive. No matter how much people justify what happens, it is viewed differently outside the Arabian world. |
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Edited by - templars on 14 Aug 2010 12:05:38 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 2:12:00 PM
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So.......is it then acceptable for people stirring their horses up by shaking tree branches etc to IGNORE the requests of the DC's to stop, resulting in injury to a handler and a loose horse ? Is that acceptable behaviour ???? Where is the respect for the rules, the DC's, and other people ???
I don't understand why EVERYONE who shows is getting defensive - people are only talking about the very small minority who take things too far, like those above The majority of people show with consideration for their own animals and other handlers.
IMO if things continue in this vein it is only a matter of time before a handler or a horse is seriously hurt. Surely safety and LIABILITY has to come into it somewhere - I can guarantee that if my horse or handler had been badly injured in this incident, I would have been gunning for both the AHS and the idiots responsible (yes I know who they were)as I'm sure ANYBODY would under the circumstances.
Compared to many countries , our Arabs are treated incredibly well, which is something we can be proud of. In order to make us beyond reproach, and ensure our lovely breed starts once again to appeal to a wider audience, we need to completely clean up our act by stopping the few who give the Arab a bad name.
It would be brilliant for H&H to make a return visit next year, and see our amazing animals performing brilliantly in every sphere, with no rules broken and the majority of people much happier. THAT would be a report worth reading. Will it ever happen ? Sadly doubt it.
And I repeat - it is not ALL who show inhand - JUST A VERY FEW who take things that bit too far ! |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 6:24:20 PM
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| Thank you Templars for your extremely sensible posts and viewpoint. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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JESSIEMAE
Gold Member
England
872 Posts |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 7:49:13 PM
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| I agree. A reasoned, rational, researched and sensible summing up in the light of how things REALLY are, not just how we might want them to be!! |
Roseanne |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 8:33:31 PM
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| Originally posted by templars
It looks as though rules are totally open to interpretation.
33. excessive whipping, shanking, extensive stimulation by noise or intimidation, excessive circling of the horse, use of electric shock devices or infliction of pain by any means is forbidden in all parts of the show ground or stable areas at all times.
34. Above events are punishable by the issue of Red/Yellow cards
I guess it all boils down to the definition of "excessive" and given that that is open to interpretation (one person's excessive is another person's acceptable), then the article is perfectly justified because it was not a show report, it was a show reporter's opinion and her opinion was - it was excessive. Presumably she has based that view on her vast experience as an equestrian journalist. To those who show regularly, it may not seem excessive; to those new to Arabian showing, it possibly does seem excessive. And that's the crux. Non Arabian people are viewing our techniques as excessive. No matter how much people justify what happens, it is viewed differently outside the Arabian world.
I am gobsmacked to see rule 33 even exists....
Unbelievable! And I think it is fair comment that someone would question the need for that rule.
Have to say when I read the HH article I felt shame.... and I dont even show.
Spending the day watching arabians would be lovely, but I would be very uncomfortable watching some of the horses that are not handled sympathetically/nicely.
Very sad state of affairs... |
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Margaret
Silver Member
Scotland
372 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 9:33:04 PM
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Thank heavens for Templars' sensible and well argued viewpoint; just what I was thinking but struggling to put into words.
H&H report on all equestrian related sports; I read the whole two page spread and thought it came over as pretty balanced. The 'comment' was just that - the journalist's view on one particular aspect of Arab showing. Why shouldn't she put her point of view? It was not written as an editorial, i.e. putting the view of the magazine's editorial staff, just her own.
I appreciate that she didn't cover every class at the show but that's hardly surprising; no show has all the classes covered - there wouldn't be room unless H&H was at least twice the size. It was a shame that Fiona and her supreme ridden didn't get a photo, but I have read other show reports where the same thing has happened and I don't think people should take it as an insult. |
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LOU
Gold Member
England
637 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 09:48:52 AM
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Hi Angel just got home from Wessex arabian group show and my very frightened European, international and British National Champion gelding (in hand) has just got his HOYS ticket and Reserve champion under saddle a foot perfect display with manners to die for, wihtout a calmer paste an ear plug in sight unlike our dear fellow showing friends on the other societys!
Im bored with this now
Towerlands my frightened Gelding will do both the inhand and the ridden in the same day and I shall eat my mums socks if he isnt good in the ridden 2 hours later without any calming paste or ear plugs!
I shall bring my mums socks are you ready
Until the bank holiday weekend when this will start again
Lou |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 10:30:40 AM
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Huge congratulations on your success and proving that the Arabian horse is not only an incredible in hand Show horse who remains calm, bold and confident in an electric atmosphere, even under saddle
Even more proof, the fact that they will always perform.....by their very nature as a flamboyant showoff who enjoys playing to the audience
So, begs the question... why the need for all the whip swishing, bag waving, stone rattling and more that goes on in the collecting rings at our National Show ?? OTT and simply not necessary...they DO NOT need to be hyped up to give their best.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 15 Aug 2010 10:31:59 AM |
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AHS NATIONAL SHOW H & H "TALKING POINT"
as Delyth says GET A GRIP people!
