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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2010 : 4:34:01 PM
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Don't worry vanishtrik 
vmt4000 & alphamare, I see what you are saying but we are talking modern day arabs here, many who are probably not as fit as they could be and conformation also not as good as it should be. They are probably ridden for an hour, maybe two, probably not everyday. These factors make a huge difference as to what an arab can/can't carry, as does tack and having a very fit and balanced rider aboard.
Darren and Risslam were a lovely partnership and the 'overall picture' was lovely, would it have been so nice if Darren was 6'2 and 18 stone...NO! So of course men can ride arabs (Blimey I know women bigger and more butch than some men who ride arabs!!  ) BUT it depends on all the other factors involved..... As an example, someone over 6' and say 13/14 stone would look very stupid riding a 14'2 arab, some might say they would look very under-horsed
As for the desert arabians, we can assume they were extremely fit being ridden many hours every day by very fit and balanced bedouin riders, not spoilt and pampered pets as many of today's arabians are (mine included  ) Some are wrapped in bandages, boots and rugs before they go out on a hack, some are booted and bandaged just to be turned out in a paddock for a an hour 
So perhaps you are right in some ways, that some of our arabs are not as tough as their ancestors.....
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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Nichole Waller
Gold Member
England
1168 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 7:21:28 PM
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This is interesting. Darren Crowe is 6ft. I'm guessing this but when i stand next to him he is about as tall as my husband who is 6ft 1 (i'm not going to guess his weight  but with tack it must be over 12 stone...)
Silver Risslam is 14.3hh and very well built. I think they look great together...
I was considering using Darren to help me back Ozzy last year, but i was worried he was to heavy for him.... Luckily i managed by myself |
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 7:48:22 PM
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I can see where you're coming from angel2002 - the Desert Arabians were a lot shorter (and denser boned) than today's taller, 'showey' type of Arab, and a hell of a lot fitter.
We are all saying how these horses carried men and equipment all day, over sandy terrain in blistering heat. BUT do we know how long these horses lived? Slain on the battlefield, sway backed, all kinds of joint and tendon problems? I don't know (so please don't jump on me  ) but it is possible that they lived very short, useful lives.
Having said that, Arab's are far more suited to weight carrying than many other breeds as they are unique in that almost all of them have one less rib and one less vertebrae than other breeds (interesting that) which of course makes them more compact and therefore better weight carriers.
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Louise, Warwickshire |
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fidodido
Gold Member
England
797 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 9:41:54 PM
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I was'nt assuming they where fat either, but like i pointed out and so has angel it is also the overall picture and if you are very tall and 18 stone i would say it would not make a very pleasing one. Obviously if you are much shorter than this and weigh 18 stone there is a good chance that the person would be overweight and would struggle to fit in the saddle.
Like has been said it depends on the horse and individual but knowing several men over 6 foot and none of which are 18 stone or over (nor do they look skinny) i still would not put them on either of my arabs.
As for what happened in the desert hundreds of years ago well who knows, although i can't imagine many of the people themselves where of that weight due to lack of proper nutrition and medicines and not only did there horses have to endure harsh conditions so did.
Angie
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Clutha
Bronze Member
155 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 1:49:08 PM
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Something to think about, why is it Crabbet & Old English arabs (bred from old lines which haven't been subjected to exoticising/extreme typing) are so different from 'modern' arabs & in showing terms are only appreciated in the ridden arena? Is beeding a 'type' that can't cope with hard work so it looks pretty in hand a good way for the breed to develop or will it end up in the same mess as the Kennel Club are currently trying to sort out? Should the desired breed standard be revised to reflect an athletic, beautiful animal that could do the job it was origionally bred for(war horse carrying full size man & arms all day)? May be this endurance ability should be included in the premium scheme testing? These 'old' lines funnily enough for all their rarity feature very heavily in pedigrees of top endurance horses. The small arab (14.2hh I believe) who a few months ago broke his own world record speed for a 100 miles endurance race, carrying FEI weight (think 70kg minimum, would have to check some races 75kg min), was bred from a Crabbet mare. Not saying other lines aren't capable, just highlighting that these old lines feature heavily with great regularity.
Seem to remember that Silvern Risslam is over 99% Crabbet...... |
Pip |
Edited by - Clutha on 29 May 2010 1:50:34 PM |
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vmt4000
Junior Member
45 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 2:35:18 PM
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| Hi Clutha, I agree with you that some sort of test of endurance ability should be included in the premium scheme testing and imo for stallion licensing. I have known of many 14.2hh arabs that have carried at least 12 stone with ease over 4ft cross-country courses, a full days hunting etc, strangely these horses were of mainly crabbet/OE lines with deep chests/decent bone etc. Think of the Crabbet and Courthouse studs, Wilfrid Blunt and Bill Clarke rode their mares hunting, endurance races, expeditions in the desert! I'm sure their horses had long and useful lives. |
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idristhered
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 3:28:32 PM
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| out of interest, the light horse brigade used to carry, on campaign, (so long distances over long periods) what has been estimated by historians as up to 19 stone, including rider; amunition; kit and tack. The light horse were usually around 14.2 and lightly built and had to be reliably rideable!! obviously they would be used to the work and their riders would be acomplished, perhaps this is more important than the weight they carried. |
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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 6:02:54 PM
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If the arabs of today are only capable of carrying a maximum of 12stones as some people seem to be suggesting, then something is going seriously wrong in the breeding of today. The arab has always been known for its weight carrying ability relative to its size and weight. Time after time I see arabs advertised as being suitable for lightweight lady/teenager only, probably meaning about 9stone. Have we really bred out these weight carrying abilities so quickly and if we have then breeders should be taking a long hard look at what they are doing to our breed. My late beloved Royal Lustre when we worked as trail leaders in the Black Mountains used to carry 16st plus all day, 13and half stone of me and a western saddle weighing 2and a half stone, plus extra kit like first aid,sandwiches drink, and spare bits and pieces of tack. He was climbing up and down mountains all day, over rough terrain, and NEVER EVER was there any suggestion of him struggling. He was a powerhouse of a horse, but then he was 99.58% Crabbet |
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Clutha
Bronze Member
155 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 5:40:13 PM
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Ruddy hell, how much did the heavy brigade carry??!
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Pip |
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Alphamare
New Member
14 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 9:38:03 PM
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| Originally posted by angel2002
So perhaps you are right in some ways, that some of our arabs are not as tough as their ancestors.....
If this is true, and it surely does apply to SOME Arabs, it is very, very sad; I have given my opinion ad nauseam on here about how strongly I feel about maintaining the integrity of the breed in terms of All it's virtues, not just beauty so will spare you all another rant. I will say though that I agree with Clutha, endurance is the nearest thing we have to the sort of extreme selection which the Bedouin practised for millenia and to whom we owe this peerless horse.
I have just returned from a ride with Harry, we have had a wonderful day riding over the Mountains above Builth, 50km, all fantastic going and all very fast , Sealy clocked up 44.7kph at one point!
Sealy is just under 15hh, 410 kg when fully fit, Harry plus saddle is 90kg, she DANCED over the mountains today constantly challenging Bryn to a flying competition ( sorry...race.. all Arab riders will know what I mean!). I agree with the 20% rule (though Harry is slightly over this), but she is living proof that Arabs are well up to carrying weight. Sealy is an advanced endurance mare and has carried Harry 10,000km to Jordan from home.... (She is high % crabbet btw!)
I must say though that of course Harry is careful with her and will get off and run on the very bad going when competing ... but then so do I on Bryn who is well over 15.2 and I am 8 stone.
Anyway just thought I would put my tuppence in ... if we are losing the toughness and endurance of the breed we are losing the breed full stop(imo). All we are left with is the beautiful shell that once contained the finest horse this world has ever seen.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 30 May 2010 10:55:11 PM |
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fidodido
Gold Member
England
797 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 10:06:33 PM
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I don't think we are losing anything from the breed and it is nothing to do with what bloodline your horse is (I do dislike it when threads turn into which bloodlines are better than others they are all arabs and there are good and bad examples of them all. BTW my 14'2 is over 80% crabbet/old english so it's not because i don't like them) but i would still not put more than 12 stone on an arab regardless of what they did hundreds of years ago in a desert or in the army for that matter. Lets face it most of the horses then where transport first and foremost not someones beloved pet, leisure riding horse or competitive sports horse. I would imagine if they broke down or suffered injury due to being overworked or over burden it was just tough luck.
There are exceptions to every rule (fitness of horse and rider for one) but i would like to think that everyone would consider there horses before over burdening them not just do it because they think that they ought to. I also think people should give as much thought to there own fitness as they do there horses, sometimes it surprises me how people expect there horses to be fit but don't give the same thought to themselves (BTW this is not intend to be aimed at anyone posting here as i don't know any of you it's JMO)
Angie |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 10:07:44 PM
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| I think perhaps the issue here is the perceived weight carrying ability of the arab versus it's actual ability, whilst I would hesitate to put an 18 stone person on any of my arabs, it doesn't mean that they couldn't actually carry a competent rider of this weight. I have a friend who put on a substantial amount of weight as a result of chemotherapy, as a result she was quite convinced thst our 15hh crabbet gelding couldn't carry her at 14.5 stone, she sold her tb mare and ended up with a shire cross. When we finally persuaded her to get on Harley he carried her with ease.(Incidentally she is now back down to 10 stone and is somewhat overhorsed). Our 14hh lightweight crabbet gelding could carry my mother at 11 stone plus tack all day hunting well into his late teens, he lived to thirty and never suffered from back trouble and had completely clean legs right up to the end. Whilst this is another vote for the abilities of the crabbet strain, I believe that any horse that does not have any obvious severe conformational issues is capable of a lot more than people give them credit for with the correct fittening program - as has been proven in endurance. (Obviously a competent rider and correctly fitting tack is also an essential). By the way my mare is 15.3hh, mainly egyptian and I weigh 10.25 stone, and obviously the lighter the rider the easier it is for their mount - I am not advocating putting heavyweight riders on arabs, I just feel that many people underestinate their abilities. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 30 May 2010 11:07:38 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 10:31:32 PM
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Hi Fidodido,
I only said Sealy was high % Crabbet as a 'BTW' as other posters had mentioned these lines, I agree that there are excellent riding horses of many lines.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you re rider fitness Harry puts a lot of effort into keeping fit for Sealy's benefit and I try to run a couple of times a week as well, we both try to ride in balance and lightly and as I said we both dismount and lead on very bad going or steep up and down hills, anyone who has seen Harry out and about in endurance will attest to this.
As I said the 20% rule is, I think, a good guide, we bought Sealy as a (very big) yearling and she did not grow as much as we hoped but she is very happy and enthusiastic about her work and Harry is fit and a sympathetic rider they love each other and BOTH enjoy their rides.
So basically I agree with your post in terms of safeguarding Arabs from being OVER burdened, of course I do, I would not put 18 stone on an Arab. It is also worth remembering that the desert Bedouin are generally relatively slightly built lean and fit, even now and certainly in the past they, like us would have been smaller.
However I maintain that the Arab is a strong sound horse capable of EASILY carrying a much greater weight than it's appearance would suggest and that, for me, endurance and toughness are as integral to the essence of the breed as is beauty, intelligence and loyalty.
I agree with Clutha and Annette and vmt4000, I think it is imperative that these qualities are maintained.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 30 May 2010 11:13:13 PM |
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fidodido
Gold Member
England
797 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 11:13:18 PM
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Hi Lisa
I don't think any of us would disagree with your post, and nobody would want the arab to lose any of the quality's that they are known for including there versatility. I just don't think they need to carry excessive weights to prove this and i think that for most of us we would never let that be the case (there is nothing worse than seeing a rider looking very under horsed even if the horse does not appear to be struggling IHMO).
Angie |
Edited by - fidodido on 30 May 2010 11:13:43 PM |
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vmt4000
Junior Member
45 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 11:21:58 PM
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| I once heard that a 14.2hh Arab can carry the same weight as a 16hh TB? I don't think anyone is advocating putting weights such as 18 stone on their horses (but it seems some can cope with this) but stating that over 12 stone is too much for any arab seems a bit preposterous. I also don't think that the Bedouin arabs were suffering as some people like to think. Lisa's mare Sealy seemed in perfect condition after 1000km and I remember reading she was only fed on basic rations?? I like many others have to practically starve my arabs once the grass comes through!Perhaps some owners simply underestimate the potential of their arabs but to be honest I have seen several which I have felt would collapse if I got on (I at the time weighed about ten stone!). |
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Clutha
Bronze Member
155 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 1:03:24 PM
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I did specifically say that I wasn't saying one particular breed line was better, but that the 'old' lines (of which I gave Crabbet & Old English as examples) appear with disproportionate regularity in high performance animals. Sorry, but they do.
My point was these horses evolved as performance animals, carrying significant weight over considerable distances (so their natural ability for endurance is hardly surprising). As such, no matter how beautiful an in-hand judge may perceive an animal against the recognised breed standard, the same animal should still be capable of doing the job he was origionally bred to do. There is no point in trying to create an ornament that is too delicate to withstand work or has breathing issues.
This is why I suggested an endurance test (my idea would be 70kg over 25 miles, which to be frank is a novice distance so any fit horse of any breed should be capable of completing easily let alone an arab supposedly bred from lines which excelled in the harsh desert environment) as part of the premium testing to show a basic level of ability.
No idea about the rest of you, but when I look at crufts there are working dogs who could still do the job (such as collies), & then there's the bull dog who can't breath or german shepard with a dropped rump that can hardly run who may well be considered ideal against the standard but when taken to that extreme their althletic ability has been definately compromised.
All I was trying to say is there is more to the breed than looks alone & a glamour contest shouldn't be the only focus, they also have to be fit for purpose. They are after all working animals on whom their human masters depended on their abilities to survive, which is why such a close bond of appreciation exists. |
Pip |
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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 9:15:01 PM
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Fidodido, could you perhaps enlarge on why you would not want to put more than 12stone on any Arab, presumably this includes his saddle as well? 12stone IMO should be a featherweight for any arab worthy of his breed to carry. If everyone was to follow this rule of yours, then you would be barring very many people from the joys of owning and riding an arabian. As for bloodlines, the Crabbets have proved themselves time after time after time in all performance disciplines and as Clutha has said appear with disproportionate regularity at the top of their chosen disciplines other than modern day in-hand showing. Yes, many other bloodlines also compete successfully in ridden events, but if you research their pedigrees you will find that there is very likely a lot of crabbet blood there too. They are not always as Egyptian/Russian/Polish etc as they first look
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Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 9:49:46 PM
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I have just been calculating.
When I backed my mare at 4, I used a western saddle that weighed 35lbs. Since I weighed around 8.5 stone at the time, she was carrying at least 11 stone, and that doesn't include the large saddle pad.
She never struggled with this, although we weren't doing a lot of distance, obviously, and 9yrs on she has no back or leg issues.
But, yes, she is high percentage Crabbet. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 9:49:47 PM
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But is it because there are a disproportionate number of Crabbet horses in performance disciplines? It's an well-known fact that a large number of 'old fashioned' types have been heading for performance as an alternative to the show ring in recent years.
As for weight carrying- have you seen the size of many American riders these days? And think how much a western saddle weighs!
Keren |
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Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 9:54:07 PM
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Lol
I think my post just crossed with MinHe |
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fidodido
Gold Member
England
797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 10:05:35 PM
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Hi Annette
If you read my last posts i have already explained why i wouldn't want to put more than 12 stone on an arab, but as it's just my opinion i'm quite sure it won't stop many others from doing so or enjoying there arabs. I'm quite sure as i have already stated there are exceptions to every rule and i would assume that people would use there common sense before over burdening there horse just because they wanted to ride an arabian.
As for Crabbets i am already aware that they are the choice of arab for the endurance scene (as i think anyone who owns an arab is wether or not endurance is your thing), and having owned an over 80% crabbet/old english arab for 16 years i am quite aware of there versatilty strength and great rideabilty and do not rate any horse just on it's ability to look pretty. I have in the past allowed a couple of people to ride said horse who would have been over MY prefered weight limit (both very good riders in fact one exceptional) but they do move better and perform better with someone of equal ability that is lighter in weight and fitter.
As for bloodlines again I am aware that most do trace from crabbet stock but again years of breeding for certain looks as given each one characteristics and a beauty all of there own, and as i said previously there are good and bad in all (btw both of mine are stunners but then i'm biased as i'm there mother but neither could be called exotic).
Angie |
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vmt4000
Junior Member
45 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 11:11:53 PM
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| Hi Annette, I completely agree with you, any Arab worthy of that title should be able to carry 12 stone (say 11 stone rider with tack) with ease. My arab has moved better and 'freer' with me on him (approaching 13 stone with tack :s) than with my much lighter instructor. I have just remembered how on numerous treks I have carried up to 50% of my weight up and down mountainsides all day; If people can do this then 20% in liveweight should be a doddle for any horse let alone an Arab?! |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 1:35:54 PM
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Although arabs are known for their weight carrying abilities there is no way I would put what I class as excessive weight on my arabs just to see if they could carry it or not.
Many years ago my 15hh arab gelding seemed happy carrying me at 14 stone including tack BUT when I lost over 2 stone the difference I felt when riding him was amazing, especially when hacking through the woods jumping logs and galloping across the corn stubble, he so obviously appreciated not having the handicap of that extra 2 stone plus of fat
What some of you are perhaps not understanding is that this is not just a weight/fitness issue, you do have to take into account the overall picture 
Do you really think that an 18 stone rider would look good on an arab?
Here is an example for you. My Boss is 6'5, big built (not exactly rippling with muscle ) and weights just over 18 stone. So what would you really be thinking if you saw him riding a 15hh arab down the street?
Doesn't he look good riding that arab??? I think not... Truth be known you would probably think that the rider looked very silly being severely under-horsed and feel very sorry for the poor arab having to carry him!
Has anyone ever sat watching a ridden showing class and commented that a rider looked far too big for the arab they were riding and how awful it 'looked' regardless of how well the horse seemed to be going? Come on, be honest, I know I have!
Personally I think that 14 stone really is pushing it for the smaller 'leisure' arabs that have never done a hard days ridden work and IMO someone of 18 stone would not look good on any arab unless it was a 17hh plus heavy-weight partbred!
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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Pop
Platinum Member
England
3051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 2:03:03 PM
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Hello Angel2002, my gosh this is exciting … will I agree or won’t I, will it be pistols at dawn?  . We would probably have a tremendous time if I disagreed  . However, I do agree with you, so no playful banter today  . There must be a variable line, each horse with its own and with quite a few factors to consider. However, I think 18 stone is just too much for the horse described. He may really enjoy riding the horse, but it’s not worth the risk, just for his enjoyment. 18 stone is very heavy indeed. |
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Weight carrying?
