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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:00:51 AM
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I posted this on Reality Check but feel that has very much run its course and unfortuantely become an arguement rather than a discusssion :( So we begin again !!
How do you all start a new colt.....does anyone use heston bales of straw to the line the mare against to stop the colt running down the side ?? When they still go down the side and try and jump on the head, do you try and push them back round, try and just turn the mare, pull them off and try again ?? Do you ever pull a young horse off ?? At what age would you use a chifney ? Do you just turn out in a paddock and let the free for all begin ?? Or do any of you get someone else to do it ;) Personally I love the latter !!
We've had good results with certain horses using heston bales who had got into bad habits. Ansata El Salaam liked them cos he leaned on them when he'd finished !!
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Edited by - Delyth on 10 Feb 2010 10:10:09 AM
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:06:19 AM
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Hi, we always start with a very very experienced mare who stands like a rock and usually after a few mistakes and a little help from the colt handler guiding things where they should be, we then interfere as little as possible, we use covering board to start though, but don't use any other barriers because they in themselves can cause problems so we tend to stay in an open area, but we have not covered anything in many years, this year will be the first time in a long time and I must admit I am worrying as we are both alot older and I keep thinking "what have I forgotten" as far as chifneys go....... I will not use them on my horses |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:08:06 AM
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Oh goody  I just asked about this on the other thread  Really interesting topic  |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:09:11 AM
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| Another question to add with more AI now.......would you only start your young colt on a dummy/phantom mare ? Or would you definately not do this should he learn the old fashioned !! natural way first ? |
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:55:26 AM
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Depends on the colt
We always use a steady, dependable mare, who will stand no matter what, and is receptive.
We usually start with bit of lunging first  then tease the mare themselves before finding their own way - we always bring them in on an angle at the shoulder, make them chat first, then they tend to be in the right place to begin with, and shuffle across to her bum once on her shoulder.
One homebred colt, aptly named Mole, because he was dark and dim was so interested in just grazing and watching the neighbous cows(he was 4 for his first mare!) he actually got peed on with her squirting at him He took about an hour to even get interested, poor girl was beside herself; and another 30 mins or so to attempt to get on After that he got the idea, and in the end we discovered a red tail bandage was like stockings and suspenders for him....he liked it lots!
My own colt passed out and fell of whilst covering....he's now gelded!
We used chifneys on the WB and TBs, mostly because they were much, much bigger boys (all 16.3hh plus)...but after losing it (oops), we now use a normal snaffle bridle, with the lunge rein over the head - and carry a stick for a prod if he's rude! |
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Edited by - s.jade on 10 Feb 2010 10:56:45 AM |
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themewoman
Silver Member
England
375 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 10:58:21 AM
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these topics have been very interesting to read. i have never seen a mare being mated etc and think it would be very benefical to see.
so if anyone in kent is looking to make babies, can i come watch please. (not in a weirdo way ;) ) |
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alpacastoo
Silver Member
Wales
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 11:14:46 AM
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 LOL - you did make me laugh Themewoman.... I presume it was horse babies you were referring to |
  
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themewoman
Silver Member
England
375 Posts |
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bexr
Gold Member
England
818 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 12:59:43 PM
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When my part bred was a young colt, he got the total wrong species and covered several cows that shared his field. He kind of taught himself. My stallion learnt on a very patient experienced mare, who he then ran with for the rest of the year. He is always kept in company. |
Bex |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 1:47:17 PM
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Mr.J again,When starting off a young stallion to the covering barn,we would always get a old mare that is well use to what is going on.
Take her to the trying gate (rubber clad),then bring the colt to the other side of the gate,take him to her shoulder then work back to her rear but NOT allow him to get under her tail.
He may start to rear up and arse about a bit, but just encourage him. When the mare shows to him then you should see his tackle. If he's ready to and keen for a go then in you go to the covering barn.
Get her in position then make him stand back, dont allow him to charge in. Lead him up to her side,let him try her, some young colts will bite her hard and try to do that under her belly, dont let him do this as she may well kick him,and starting off a new horse you dont want this.
Then pull him back a bit, standing at her side then let him jump up. You sort of push him up a bit,now this is when some of them will just rear up with feet crashing about all over the mares back, they also can get themselves up too far over the mares head,you would have to pull him off if he gets this far forward, but do this a few times and it will work.
DONT grab for his penis, but just guide him in and then put your hand at the base of his sheath to feel the throb then you can be sure he has fired the bullet! Most new stallions will get the hang of it after a few coverings.
This is where a stallion man will always carry a stick as once they cover they can get a bit stupid and you have to remind them that they do have manners! ALWAYS use a stallion chifney for covering, from the very first time, much more control. Remember any equipment is only as severe as the hand holding it Stallion chifneys are thicker than normal ones. |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 2:13:05 PM
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The lack of advice seems to be a reccuring theme with these threads. It is something OH and myself have found locally. Once word got round the OH was a Stallion Man and was happy to help with advice or handling, the phone was red hot!
Many people have many theories about how to handle stallions, plenty of those are valid, but some are not and it is too dangerous to start messing about with. How dangerous is shown by the fact the insurance policy I have to cover my business has the exclusion of 'handling stallions for the purpose of covering or mares in the vicinity of stallions for breeding purposes'. I need a seperate policy to cover any covering.
Unfortunatly many view being able to deal with a stallion as a form of machismo and can be too rough, or a bit cavaliering in when mares are ready for covering and how they are covered. This again smacks of ignorance. I can understand how hard it must be for a new stallion owner to find good and competent advice and help. For that is another thing, the mares don't hold themselves! You need someone reliable to hold the mares that is confident enough around the stallion themselves and will definatly hang on! As a stallion handler you are in a very vulnerable position and need to trust the person at the mares head.
Helen |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 2:33:10 PM
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Finding someone to hold mares !! Having had that job for years I often wonder why anyone offers - I hated it !! With the bigger boys I do tend to cover up against the teasing boards with the handler the other side so they are out of any real danger. Especially my OH who isn't horsey but that's only with the dear mares not the ones who are going to try and go over the board !!
I think the most obvious and essential thing starting a colt is the mare. Bedawi is going to get Ass Windi (lucky devil) she'll stand bolted to the ground and has a nice number of days where she is strong in season, so we can get our practice in !!
I would be interested in anyone who has opinions on using a dummy mare (not jump) to collect from with a young colt. We had a stallion a few years ago who had only really been collected from, so when he came to cover the real thing, as soon as she moved a little he got off !! It was a devil of a thing to get him to stay on, he wasn't the most rampant !! If he's getting a mix of the two will he be OK ? I'm just wondering now after Emma's reference to frustrated stallion :)
Another little problem I have here is getting an older horse to accept an AV - yes it's Ffatal !! He really doesn't like it. I've tried it full so its tight, I've tried it slack, I've changed the temperature of the water and now I can get him to accept it but he doesn't ejaculate into it. He thrusts abit and then changes his mind. Any suggestions !! |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 2:39:28 PM
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| Another tip !! Stuart just mentioned Sealtex bandage which you can put on your bit ie if you do have a thinner type of chifney. It will make it abit kinder and pad it out :) Robinsons sell it and I've just found it on Toadally Equine....what a great name !! |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 2:50:17 PM
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| Hi I agree with alot of what has already been said but I have and do and will never ever use a chifney bit and we used to cover with hanoverians TB ID and many other big breeds, I have seen what a chifney bit can do, but hey each to there own |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 3:11:49 PM
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I've only got till 4pm!!!
What a good subject.
I think Mr Jamana has some really good advice. But what I find interesting is different bloodlines make for different behavior which may account for Lynda finding her chap so easy.
Old Cavalier was a headcoller job and once because I had no one to hold a mare, she being an old girl obliged by standing firmly, not moving as she was free and could wander if wanted!! He did his job, returned to his hay and had his normal snooze.
My chap now is different again and we take every precaution going.
We always always use covering boots on every mare even if we feel we know them well. We also bandage the tail up at the top and have probably a better person handling the mare. Whilst some may not want to say this on here, we do use a 'be kind' twitch on mares we don't know. Ours will just stand and don't need one. But if you don't know the mare don't be fooled in to thinking, she's in season she will standsome old bags like nothing more than to double barrel just as the stallion has done his job, sort of black widow syndrome we call it. Kill the git after covering!!
I have never had a stallion turn round to kick the mare because I don't let them.
In the beginning I feel you need two or even three helpers at the stallion end. All stuff most of you know I expect. I would start with a straight bar bit and see how 'goey' yours is first, but do use a chain through the bit rings. Don't use a chiffney or they will get a thing about jumping up.
I have added this in here, as we have found Arabs can be very sensitive and are easily upset at covering time. Hence no chifney. If you do need to use it then do so, but you can put an Arab off the job very quickly.
We never touch the penis, we watch for the flagging tail. Arabs again are so sensitive this can also put them off!!
As for AI, we sent ours to be collected as a young chap, he gave quite a bit but had covered naturally first. He has also practiced on his haylege bale not intentionally.
Sorry for the 'blue' pic, but he was allowed to wander freely in the barn and had a thing about black plastic, it got worse after we had him collected! so be warned!!
It took a while to stop him doing this and once he had gone back to natural covering all black plastic thoughts had gone!
Also he stood off the mare after the AI collection, so we had to pull his front legs on more!! all a bit complicated but we sorted it.
I only use his covering bridle with his covering bit in and it is a straight bar nylon bit with a chain through the rings. Now he is easy, but still we go through a tried and tested regime of being very very careful
Letting a stallion live in a barn with his mares we found has made all of this much easier. He doesn't get het up at all, will cover his mare, get off and we put him straight out into his paddock where he will roll.
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Edited by - SueB on 10 Feb 2010 3:31:10 PM |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
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leighann
Gold Member
Scotland
512 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 3:49:01 PM
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Delyth - We only use our dummy mare now as had all the usual problems that comes with covering live mares and can't find anyone brave enough for mare handling  The older stallion took a bit of convincing to start with but now he loves "Daisy" and it is so much easier and less stressful for us and him as she never changes her mind at the last minute
As for your boy not ejaculating in to the AV i would be pretty sure that it would be down to the set up of the AV, ie temp and pressure isn't right - we had this problem where he would thrust but not ejaculate and it was a case of just keep adding more hot water and make sure there is lots of lubricating gel on the AV - our boy likes it HOT & Tight!!
Out of interest which type of AV do you use? and do you use liners? We use the Missouri AV as he didn't like the Colorado type and don't use liners again as he didn't like them but its all trial and error and once you work out what he "likes" its easy
I wouldn't go back to covering live mares my life is far easier with the stallion's & Daisy - Its just removes alot of what ifs |
Leigh-Ann
www.carradalearabians.co.uk
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Edited by - leighann on 10 Feb 2010 3:57:08 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 3:58:31 PM
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Black plastic??? This IS an educational thread - LOL
Keren |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 4:15:50 PM
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That photo is so rude !!
Interesting re AV. I use the Missouri - he hated the Colorado. No liners either and loads of KY !! I'm going to get the vet to try next time just incase it's me ?? |
Edited by - Delyth on 10 Feb 2010 4:26:57 PM |
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natntaz
Platinum Member
England
2919 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 4:32:53 PM
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| SueB, Love that pic so funny bless him |
   
Natalie Pix. Essex. Tariq ibn Radfan and Taroub |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 4:40:33 PM
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| Mr.J again,When I say use a chifney the stallions I had were all racehorse's and they are mostly all hard in the mouth,just a normal bit is not enough to control them,and as Gerri has said she has seen what they can do ...........so have I,and so long as they are used correctly there is no problem at all,remember when covering you always need to be in total control of the horse and be safe.When Ardross came to us the first mare I covered with him I used his bridle that came with him,I was just a passenger being towed along,so from then on used my stallion chifney that stopped him ,I always had complete control going into cover mares.When clients came to see him I always took him out with his bridle on.All mares were covered with a twitch maidens would all wear covering boots the mares would all be washed under the tail and then some lubricant applied to the vulva,one person as a rule would hold the mare but sometimes two, one each side if needed. One then to hold the tail out of the way,ive heard people say about flagging tails or you can tell by his eyes,but really the only way to be 100% accurate is to put your hand at the base of his penis and feel him ejaculate.If this is done the right way you should have no problem,one Arab stallion ive used covered a dummy horse for ages he didn't mind this being done at all,before I used him some of his mares did not get in-foal but I had 100% success applying this rule. |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 4:55:45 PM
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Well fantastic pic Sue have the same problem with Ssin he loves anything black as the saying goes once you have had black there is no going back ............ sorry could'nt resist that lol. the black haylage bales have the same affect on him bless them.
Delyth, Ssin covered naturally then was trained for the dummy but i am sure he would easily go back to the real thing especially if she was black i must say the dummy is less stressful ................ for me that is.
Good luck
Tracey |
  
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 5:01:18 PM
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Delyth. Hakka learnt to collect at 14 yrs old, and although he had done it once at Andreas was less keen after that, so I bandaged the outside of the liner more or less where the pelvis would be on the mare to give a feel of going over the bone (more natural). It worked for him and now he only collects (without bandage), never asks to jump the mare and always turns to 'Daisy'. The Alchemist learnt (again not keen) at 6 yrs old with the same method. I intend (when he is old enough) to train my colt straight to the dummy, the main reason for this is I don't actually have any mares that have been covered naturally anymore.
I always tease to the board and then tell the boy to back up to the dummy, if he does get on the side either push him round and in Hakka's case let him sort himself out.
I never use chiffneys, I don't like them personally and even in the best hands if the horse goes banana's can cause a lot of damage. Bridling is down to the individual. Hakka has a mouthing bit with keys (just so it differentiates from his riding bridle) and a rope. The Alchemist had his head collar with a chain under his chin. Ivan has been here too and done in a head collar and chain over his nose.
I changed over to AI simply cause I couldnt get confident reliable people to help hold mare, stallion, mares tail etc etc. Now I just need someone to competantly hold a tease mare. Or in Hakka's case wear a blue t shirt (don't ask) |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
Edited by - Pashon2001 on 10 Feb 2010 5:03:44 PM |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 5:28:22 PM
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Really ??? Just a bandage wrapped round and round ?? I could try that it makes sense.
Do you all still use a tease mare with the dummy or have you found that a squirt of wee and they'll sniff and go for it ?? Are you using an AV in the dummy or holding an AV to the side ?? |
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leighann
Gold Member
Scotland
512 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 5:56:30 PM
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We use the headcollar with chain on for covering the older stallion as soon as he has it on he knows exactly whats coming next, so we tease him from the stable and head straight for the dummy mare which is just a short walk by this time he a ready to jump and we collect by hand with the AV.
When we take the mares in for teasing they go in the stable next to the stallion this is a good way of getting him ready and also gives us a chance to collect some mare wee which we then apply to "Daisy" - this is good for stallions that like to have a sniff before they jump, gives them a little encouragement We have a teaser board in front of the dummy mare in case we need a live mare to help. |
Leigh-Ann
www.carradalearabians.co.uk
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 7:10:18 PM
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LOL at Monty and his haylage bales - that pic always makes me laugh
Delyth - do you have any pics of Bedawi you could show us ? Pretty pretty please ? His breeding is amazing - I'm dying to see how he's growing up  You must be very excited to see what he produces
This is a really fascinating and informative thread |
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Starting young colts
bless him x