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JuliaB
Bronze Member
 England
89 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 5:56:28 PM
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My daughter's yearling colt was registered as a bay. Even then we were not really sure what colour he was. He is now looking more chestnut than bay but has very pale darker colour on his lower legs like a bay. His mane was white on each edge and black in the middle and now he has a chestnut stripe on the outside of the white on the left hand side of his neck. His tail is blond and black.
Has anyone had a horse with this strange colouring before and knows what colour he is classed as? His sire Azteq is grey and his dam Pjatakova is also grey. The only thing we can think of reading about genetics and colouring is that he might have the silver gene.
His coat colour is more chestnut than the photos show but you can see the mane and leg colouring.
Thanks.
Julia
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Esther
Gold Member
United Kingdom
866 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 6:16:57 PM
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Greys go all sorts of weird colours before they go grey, and they don't always do it 'conventionally' (ie from the eyes outwards) so I'd hazard a guess yours will end up grey by the time he's 6 or so.
I'm still in denial about our little sh*tland cross who is taking his time going properly grey.
Greys are always another colour underneath the grey - the grey is a coat modifier rather than a colour in its own right.
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paranoid horsemother
 
Photo on far right thanks to West End Photography
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rhoni
Gold Member
United Kingdom
910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 6:40:17 PM
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| He looks like what's called a "wild bay" - I've seen some pics of very similarly coloured Arabians on other forums. |
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 6:43:25 PM
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| Thank you very much for your replies - they are very interesting. "Wild bay" is something we will have to look out for. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 6:47:27 PM
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Personally I think he is bay, I've seen white tails on bays commonly and silvering in the mane is also quite common. Does he have any grey hairs in his coat?? There is a lot of bay in his pedigree.
If I remember right wasnt it Final Shadow that had silvering when he was a youngster??? |
     
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 7:04:58 PM
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| Pashon, no he doesn't have any grey hairs in his coat. Regarding Final Shadow, I guess the silver disappeared as he matured? Maybe Phantom will do likewise. |
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Havenbeech
Silver Member
Wales
427 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 7:14:41 PM
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He looks typically silver to me - why not get him tested?
Wild bay does tend to look as though the legs have faded out, and i have seen rabicano/sabino causing skunk tail but never seen a mane like that on a bay unless silver was involved, would love to know for definate - let me know if you do havenbeech-stud@fsmail.net xx
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www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies
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rhoni
Gold Member
United Kingdom
910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 7:59:10 PM
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This is a straight Egyptian stallion in the US genetically tested as wild bay:
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 11:14:54 PM
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I would say bay. White hairs in the m/t are not unusual in bays of his age - they are leftovers from the foal coat. Likewise, it takes time for the black stockings to fully develop - in some horses they may not reach their final extent until the age of 5! That is why I am dubious about the majority of claims for 'wild bay' - nearly always the horse in question is a youngster.
Although this boy's amount of pale hairs is greater than usual, I doubt he is anything more than a rather loud expression of what is usually seen in bays of this age. I think he will be an extremely handsome bay when he is all grown up (gotta love those bays, yummy!).
So far silver has not been found in Arabs - and I would love to hear if it does turn up, as it would prove a theory of mine, so I do have my ear to the ground for it!
Keren
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 11:23:01 PM
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Looks bay to me too..... not on the genetics of it, it baffles me, but he's a good strong bay through his body. Looks a sweet neddy too 
our stallion is producing 'frosted tails' quite readily... looks quite distinguished |
    
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 11:47:17 PM
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Our 18 year old gelding was described as bay/grey as a foal, when I bought him as a 4 year old he had a large amount of white in his mane and tail, but was definitely bay. He lost the white in his mane when he scrubbed most of it out 
and it came back nearly black, although he still has a large section of white in his tail. The sprinkling of grey hairs through his coat has increased as he has got older, but he is still definitely bay as you can see from this photo taken earlier this year (He is in the middle!)
 radfoto
He is by Keffan (Fangold) out of Diamond Shadow (Bey Shadow) |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 30 Dec 2009 8:35:25 PM |
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Esther
Gold Member
United Kingdom
866 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 06:31:07 AM
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OK - here's how the genes work.
Both parents were grey. The grey gene is dominant, which means that where a horse holds a grey gene and a non-grey gene, the grey gene wins out and the horse is grey.
Lets suppose mum has one grey gene (G) and one recessive non grey gene (g), and dad also has the same (Gg). As both parents are grey we know they both must have at least one grey gene each.
As for each set of genes a horse takes one from mum and one from dad, your lad will then have four options of how his grey genes will come out:
GG (grey, two dominant grey genes)
Gg (grey, one dominant grey gene)
gG (grey, one dominant grey gene)
gg (non-grey, no grey genes)
In this scenario your chap has a 75% chance of turning grey.
However, if one of the parents holds two grey genes (so one is GG and the other is Gg), those options look like this:
GG (grey, two dominant grey genes)
Gg (grey, one dominant grey gene)
GG (grey, two dominant grey genes)
Gg (grey, one dominant grey gene)
In this scenario your chap is 100% likely to turn grey.
The other option is that both parents have two dominant grey genes (GG) which means that any offspring is guaranteed to have two dominant grey genes too. And thus be grey.
The best way to tell whether a horse is GG or Gg is to run a DNA test. However, if you look at any previous offspring the parents have had and see if there are any adult non greys amongst them, that will show that they are carrying a non-grey recessive gene. If they have no such recessive non-grey gene, then all their offspring will be grey regardless of what colour the other parent is, because as a GG all they will have to add to the genetic mix is a G gene. |
paranoid horsemother
Photo on far right thanks to West End Photography
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 08:49:28 AM
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| Thank you very much to everyone who has commented on this topic. We certainly have some food for thought! We are going to have his genetic tests done for CA and SCID so maybe at the same time we will add in the silver and bay tests. His elder brother Phaaraoh who is by Aazari is definitely chestnut and shows now sign of the (now) white/black/chestnut mane. I have seen bay horses with some white mane/tail hair but they have been classically bay - in the flesh, Phantom looks chestnut! I cannot reproduce his colour accurately in photographs! It would be lovely if he were to turn grey. We will let you know once the results of the colour tests are back! |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 11:02:51 AM
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Bay, Grey or purple with pink spots - he is lovely. How exciting not knowing what colour he will turn out. Thats what I love about my palominos - waiting each spring to see how golden they are going to be.
Your boy is a beautiful shape for a yearling. Cant wait to see how he turns out when he is all grown up.
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 12:24:16 PM
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| hes lovely, i have known a bay pony at four turn completey grey as a five year old, had no signs of being grey, then suddenly shedded out the winter coat and was pure grey so he may still turn grey. I have seen a chestnut tb with a pure black mane and tail. regardless of colour he is nice. |
    
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 1:16:14 PM
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| I think he looks a wonderful colour, and also he is very well made for a yearling. Good luck with him. |
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 5:40:00 PM
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| Thank you very much for your kind comments. Phantom is quite tall at just under 15 hands at the moment. His maternal half-brother (Phaaraoh) is just under 16 hands as a 3 year old. Of course we adore Phantom regardless of colour. We shall have to wait and see what the colour tests reveal in due course! |
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CatQueen
Gold Member
England
545 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 12:24:54 PM
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i would say he is bay , my mare sulan easter princess had almost a silver tail as a yearling and that faded over the years she is bay .and my stallion ellectron is bay , both his parents were grey his sire is eukaliptus and dam is sasza . |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 2:32:55 PM
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He does look slightly more bay than chestnut but the black points are very pale and the mane is every woman's dream! Highlights? You gotta believe them! As a foal he was very definitely chestnut and the friendliest foal ever - the others didn't get a look in when people were around. I have his baby half sister (same sire, Azteq) out of my gorgeous chestnut mare who is by Aazari out of Jammilah (so bay x grey). The filly, Maya, is the colour of rich deep milk chocolate (Green and Blacks probably LOL!), not chestnut. She is probably going to be grey, although I've never had chocolate flavoured greys before  ! The family is interesting, to say the least, and their temperaments are exceptional.
I agree that Arabs aren't known for the silver gene but you have to wonder with Phantom. If he is bay it is very diluted. |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 6:47:25 PM
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Catqueen, would love to see a picture of your mare when she was young, if you have one available. I think we will go with bay as as suggested by most people.
Carolyn, your gorgeous little Maya sounds fabulous, and chocolate covered as well!. She was so pretty as a foal when Liv and I saw her with Mina. Aren't these Azteq children amazing people? Phantom is still the friendliest horse we have ever met. We will have him tested for bay (and silver, just in case)! |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 09:57:24 AM
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I too think he is bay.
Esther, the fact that neither parent has ever produced a "colour" does not mean that they are homozygous for the grey gene. They may pass on the "colour" gene which is recessive to the grey gene for generations before producing a non grey offspring if the "colour" gene is always masked by a grey gene. My mare has two grey parents and four grey grandparents. She produced a dark bay filly for me without a single grey hair on her body. To say I was amazed is an understatement. She throws back to her great grandmother, the legendary Hanan. I was so thrilled as I have all greys and love bays but never expected to breed one!
Barbara |
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alethea
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1526 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 10:10:49 AM
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Whatever colour he turns out to be (sorry i know thats not much help) i think he is gorgeous and very eyecatching. Im sure you will have alot of success and fun with him
Alethea
Aristotle Arabians |
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 12:39:54 PM
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This is all very interesting, thank you for your input. We are hoping to show Phantom next year. Below is a photo of him as a 5 month old foal in which I believe he is chestnut. I don't know if this is of any relevance concerning eventual colour.
[photo: Michelle Segre]
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JuliaB
Bronze Member
England
89 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 08:41:17 AM
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| Well, Phantom's results were emailed to us yesterday. Regarding colour, he is just a strange coloured bay - no evidence of the silver dilution as most people thought! He is also CA clear which has pleased us immensely. |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 1:53:50 PM
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I'm intrigued - both that he is definitely bay, despite his baby pictures , but that they can blood test for colour. Great news about the CA result.  |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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Topic |
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DETERMINING COLOUR
