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simbba
Silver Member
299 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 11:17:12 PM
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This is being discussed on the other O/E thread as well.
I am not an expert but I think the Crabbet definition is all horses bred at Crabbet including all those bred OR owned by the Blunts and Lady Wentworth (ie to include Skowronek, Dargee etc). Old English will include Crabbet horses but also other smaller studs such as Courthouse, Barton Lodge etc, which had separate imported horses as well as using Crabbet stock.
Minhe has suggested horses imported in to Britain prior to 1940.
I am sure someone more knowledgable will clarify/correct this definition.
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 12:22:19 AM
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Old English horses include a number of imported horses that were never used in Crabbet programmes, such as the asil desertbred stallions Dwarka, Atesh, Nimr, Fedaan and Manak, the asil mare Nuhra, and also imports from America such as Gayza, Gara, Gharbi, Roglemar Zarad and Jellaby, whose ancestors included Egyptian and Davenport desert lines (a descendant of Dwarka was used at Crabbet post WWII, but not all Dwarka horses are accepted under the Crabbet label by all Crabbet enthusiasts, AFAIK).
Then there are El Emir (not by any means the 'train wreck' claimed by some, as the photo believed to depict him is in fact a Yorkshire Coach Horse - aka a Cleveland Bay!), Ishtar, Mootrub, Maidan, Crosbie, Warda al Badia, Rech al Badia, Nejma, Nejdmieh, Outlaw, Musket, Mejamieh and Mameluke, all listed by Gazder as 'original Arabs (ie desertbred) who have not necessarily left direct sire/dam lines but who may be present indirectly in the background of non-Crabbet OE pedigrees.
Lady Wentworth was an unremitting self-publicist, which has meant that horses of other breeders - though equally as good as those at Crabbet, as shown by the quality of their descendants - have tended to be less 'hyped' (for want of a better word) and so have faded from general awareness. If you look back at old copies of the AHS News (or the reprinted AHS Journals from 1985-1938) you will see these horses and their owners in their true light. In fact it was said of Fedaan that he was by far a better horse than Skowronek - however, his owner did not have the quantity of mares to put to him that Lady Wentworth had at Crabbet, so his blood was not as widely spread. Likewise, Dwarka probably has more influence through his partbred son The Leat, who is the foundation sire for the modern Dartmoor pony, due to his lack of opportunity to stand to purebred mares!
The best place to track down the eligible horses (and their descendants) is in Dr PJ Gazders 'Arab Horse Families of Great Britain', which lists ALL imports up to about 1980, and which is essential reading for anyone interested in the Arab in this country.
Ironically, while I am very pro Old English and am thrilled at this initiative to revive the lines, my own horses do not qualify under the 75% rule, as though they are bred on a basis of OE stock, the fact that they also have Egyptian blood means that they are on average in the 60% OE region.
Keren
Edited to add more imported horses from Gazder |
Edited by - MinHe on 03 Feb 2010 5:47:46 PM |
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simbba
Silver Member
299 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 08:31:51 AM
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Thanks Lisa,i will have a look on their
Karen thankyou i find it so interesting and could spend ours going through their pedigrees i have an Egyptian/crabbet mare and would like to know her percentage?How do i go about finding out about this?
Lisa |
www.xiviersarabianpalominos.com |
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Clutha
Bronze Member
155 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 1:09:32 PM
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| You can find out how to work it out at The Crabbet Organisation website, or pay for a hertitage certificate. To enter an Crabbet showing classes you will need either a HC or a letter from TCO confirming they are over 75%. Any questions, just ask them, very helpful people. |
Pip |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 4:56:01 PM
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Simbba, I can work it out for you. All I need is the full registered name of your horse. 
Oh, just to add I've look at your website and love your stallion! I am hoping to bred a pally myself from my mare, but will need to look for a high % arab cremello to guarantee my palomino! Pity as I like your lad a lot!! |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
Edited by - Qui Gon Jinn on 03 Feb 2010 5:01:45 PM |
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 5:00:34 PM
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| Qui Gon Jinn, i think my mare is crabbet bred, her name is Zifa. would you be able to tell me? |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 5:03:53 PM
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There is a 3rd category namely GSB for horses tracing to those registered in the General Stud Book.
I think I wrote an article a while back on registration that was on here in AL - maybe Rui could provide the link? Thanks Rui .
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Ziadomira
Platinum Member
England
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 5:14:48 PM
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Crabbet is interesting because while Dargee for instance is Crabbet because he was there not all of his full sisters are because they were never owned by Crabbet.
An odd thing about GSB is that they are horses that have to be 100% descended from horses registered in the GSB before it was closed to Arabian Horses. When Arabs were first imported they had to be registered somewhere regardless of the country they went to and some of these original imports did not come to GB but went elsewhere but were registered in the GSB, hence their offspring if by or out of a GSB horse continued the GSB line. GSB used to be entered on their papers after their name.
Zia GSB |
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Rui
AL Admin
6761 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 5:34:35 PM
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One potential difficulty I can see is in the descendants of MIRAGE. Lady Wentworth was having one of her periodic fall-outs with the AHS when she owned him (asil desertbred), and couldn't register him in the GSB, as it was closed to imports by then, but Peter Upton has shown that she DID use him at stud but registered the offspring under a fictional sire, therefore his blood may still be around in Crabbet/OE horses here. However, his line is also present through the Dr Peter Rumsey imports of the 1970s through his stock bred by Selby in America.
Does anyone know if he is included in American Crabbet lines by Crabbet people?
Keren |
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member
Australia
795 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 5:42:16 PM
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I take it that early US stock - Babson, CMK and the like - are separate to all this? Bit dense on these matters I am afraid.
B
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 6:04:11 PM
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Well, CMK is Crabbet-Maynesboro-Kellogg, which includes lines other than Crabbet used at Maynesboro/Kelloggs (eg the Davenport desert imports, which are American foundation stock, therefore not OE). Babsons *share* ancestors with some Crabbet lines, due to the inclusion in the Royal Agricultural Stud of Egypt and the Princes' studs of horses from Crabbet/Sheik Obeyd, so do carry a 'Crabbet percentage' (can someone enlighten me on the 'Crabbet' position of Sheik Obeyd horses that produced stock elsewhere in Egypt post 1917? I am sure it is probably well-known to Crabbet folk, but not having anything with a sufficient Crabbet percentage I confess not to have gone into such detail!)
American stock prior to the imports of the 1950s had lines other than those imported from the UK - primarily the stallion Leopard, the horses belonging to the Hamidie World's Fair exhibition group, Davenport's desert imports and Henry Babson's Polish imports. So the two groups are not the same.
How do the Crabbet people characterise Ben Rabba (other than as CMK)? Is he eligible under their 75% rule? He has a fair whack of Davenport/Hamidie, plus Old Egyptian.
Keren |
Edited by - MinHe on 03 Feb 2010 6:04:42 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 6:17:15 PM
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Also, when talking about 'Babson', the term is *usually* used to mean ONLY the Straight Egyptian stock bred at the Babson farm, but Henry Babson also imported horses from Poland in the 1930s, a stallion from Courthouse (he was a close friend of Musgrave Clark), and also owned the mare TURFA, who has recently been shown to be of all-Egyptian lines, but is usually considered as a category all on her own.
There are horses in the BRITISH Arab gene pool who have these other Babson horses in their pedigree, but this is as the result of post-1939 imports, so they are not considered OEng.
(Incidentally, Turfa SHOULD have contributed to OEng lines, as she belonged to King George VI, but she was sent to Canada for safety during WWII!)
Keren (who can bore for England on the subject of early bloodlines!) |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 8:19:32 PM
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Hi Keren,
Where can I find the article or statement about Mirage being used at Crabbet?? How did Peter Upton find it out anyway?? I know somebody who thought that Mirage was used instead of Skowronek, but that Lady W. said the foals where by Skowronek, might be true then??
That would make Lila Asil then, LOL.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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simbba
Silver Member
299 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 8:58:53 PM
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Thank you all for your replies.....i find it very fascinating
Qui Gon Ginn her full registerd name is Charisse
Thankyou also for your kind comment about my boy,so far he has given us 3 pallys 1 chestnut and 1 cremello,we have another 2 due soon its so exciting to see what colour they are going to be Good luck with your search |
www.xiviersarabianpalominos.com |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 10:14:11 PM
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Hi Monique
This is something I remember hearing Peter Upton talking about - but I believe it's also be in his big illustrated book, The Arab Horse. Might be worth your while getting in touch with him!
Keren |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 11:22:03 PM
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| Keren how will the OE class secretaries know which horses qualify? It sounds as though they'll just have to take it on trust, since there isn't the Crabbet Organisation qualification to rely on. |
Roseanne |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 10:26:40 AM
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Sorry to go a bit off thread but as there are clearly some very knowledgable people reading this, and it has been refered to obliquely... I would be interested in people's views on the issue of purity... I have been reading the daughters of the wind blog recently and as we know there are a group of people who beleive ( probably correctly in the strictest terms) that 97% of purebreds are not Asil. I know it is an old chestnut but I would like to know what other people think about Skowronek, the Polish foundation mares etc Not to mention the French Arabs Manganate etc
We obviously cannot make a impure line (by correct Bedouin definition) pure again but do you feel it should be at least a consideration? Should we try over time to minimise the 'mistakes' of the past and select stallions with bloodlines of the greatest integrity or is WAHO registration enough for you??
I do have my own views but would like to become more knowledgable anyone got any comments?
My own horses are Crabbet (high%)/Davenport/Courthouse/Old Egyptian
so I will not be offended by anyones views.. I would just like to know what you think?
Yes Mirage is in Peter Uptons book, Lady Wentworth sounds very glad to have got him!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 04 Feb 2010 10:33:52 AM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 1:08:20 PM
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| Originally posted by Roseanne
Keren how will the OE class secretaries know which horses qualify? It sounds as though they'll just have to take it on trust, since there isn't the Crabbet Organisation qualification to rely on.
Roseanne, I appreciate this is going to be a difficulty (not a problem but an opportunity, as they say ), but the OEng thing has is only just getting off the ground, so no doubt someone will come forward to help here. Maybe for the first year secretaries will have to take things on trust, but I don't doubt that as interest increases, so the solution will arrive!
lisa rachel - I think the whole asil question really deserves a thread to itself, so as not to derail this important OEng discussion. Do you want to repost your points in a new thread?
BTW, I prefer the abbreviation OEng to OE, as OE is already in use amongst the Egyptian/asil community as shorthand for Old Egyptian (pre EAO lines in America, such as Babson, etc)
Keren |
Edited by - MinHe on 04 Feb 2010 1:09:23 PM |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 9:47:39 PM
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Flosskins, your mare Zifa works out at 77.1240% Crabbet (75% Old English/25% Egyptian). So you could enter Crabbet classes with her, so long as you have either a Crabbet Certificate or a letter from the Crabbet Organisation proving her percentage.
Simbaa your mare Charisse is 37.5747% Crabbet. Some really lovely horses in both horses pedigree's
Cheers
Jayne |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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simbba
Silver Member
299 Posts |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 9:56:36 PM
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| Lisa, you are very welcome. I enjoy looking up the bloodlines and seeing cross matches of relatives etc. It's not a hard thing to do, just time consuming!! |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 2:16:22 PM
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| thank you Jayne, that sounds like a nice mix for her. love reading these posts as i learn so much! |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2010 : 10:23:01 PM
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| Hi Keren - my thoughts on the OE class is a allbreedspedigree link for the horses entered and perhaps a little help from my friends, I would love to get at least 8 horses forward into the OE class at Wetherby this year, and as this was my brain wave, I think Wendy is expecting me to check the pedigrees as I will also be checking the Crabbet entries for the Crabbet Organisation - I can feel an Old English website coming on just give me a few weeks. Hows about it Keren are you up for it?? How is your OH? Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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Difference between OE/Crabbet
