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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 10:32:35 PM
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Info so far.
BELSIRE 1900~. NPS 655. Polo & Riding Pony.Bay Stallion 14.3hh.
Thoroughbred.(Right Forard 1902/Black Bella 1904~)
Sire of Alicia 1914.
Exported to Argentina.
Thanks
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 11 Nov 2009 2:16:03 PM
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
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Peterina
New Member
Belgium
16 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2009 : 12:41:25 AM
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I have found reference to two stallions around that period:
1. Belsire: Exported to Argentina where he was a reknown polo-pony stud!
He is by Right Forard out of Black Bella.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/right+forard
"Francisco Balfour, another great Argentine breeder, was the first secretary to the River Plate Polo Association and, for years, a distinguished player, gentleman-rider and manager. His farm "El Colorado" in Washington was managed by his son in-law, Edgardo J. Carlisle. The first stallion to be used by Balfour -and the first cause of his prestige- was the imported Shy Boy, by Rose Walter in Shy Lass, and brought to Sir John Barker. Shy Boy´s bet mares were given to another imported stallion: the equally great Belsire, by Right For´ard in Black Bella, the finest English Blood. Black Bella played in all mayor tournaments in England, including the international games in 1902. Belsire had always been a tame and mild stallion, and so was his offspring. His best product was Crítica, a mare who Andrada rode in1926 and was considered the quickest polo pony in the United States. Another great stallion was The Bishop, by Belsire as well, in Jeanne and exported to India after being bought by the government of this country in 1916."
2. a stallion by Electioneer but he ran in USA so don't think this is the one you want: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belsire2
'It is a recognized fact among the breeders of harness horses
that certain stallions never produce chestnut foals. In Wallace's
Monthly for February, 1880, there is an article by “¿Truth,― in
which he says: “¿I have learned that neither of the brothers
[Volunteer and Sentinell have ever sired a chestnut colt.― W. H.
Marrett, in the September, 1890, issue of the sai@nepaper, tells
us that the two bay sires Volunteer and Electioneer never had
chestnut foals. Both were by a bay sire (Rysdyk's Hamble
tonian, which appears in the first table below), one being from
a bay mare, the other from a brown. In a sale catalogue issued
in 1903 C. W. Williams says of the brown stallion Belsire: “¿His
get are . . . bays, browns and blacks.― This horse is a son
of the Electioneer mentioned above and of a black mare whose
sire was a black and dam bay. He is a full brother to the bay
Chimes which appears in the table below, and to Bow Bells,
bay, and St. Bel, black, both also probably homozygous.
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Palomino's are dancing sunbeams. |
Edited by - Peterina on 16 Sep 2009 01:18:32 AM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:10:32 PM
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Hello Sue
I came across an old book the other day and it had Belsire's breeding down as this;
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10441545
I've inserted all the data as mentioned in the book on this database (which is much more secure than allbreed).
Black Bella was a thoroughbred mare according to the book but I haven't got the correct GSB to be able to confirm this, she was also a very good polopony playing in some big tournaments. I haven't been able to confirm Blackthorn's breeding with any studbooks yet either.
Not sure of Belsire's correct year of birth.
Peterina's 2nd Belsire was an American Harness Racing Horse and I've put his breeding on the above website too. |
Edited by - Melynda on 28 Oct 2009 12:13:46 PM |
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dormouse
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
203 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 3:47:24 PM
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I've found a note about Belsire in a book (follow link) that appears to be published in 1911 describing Belsire as a three year old.
http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofhorse00rich#page/n5/mode/2up
Right For'ard is by Mark For'ard, out of Cuddle by Golden Garter, her dam Caress
by Wanderer. The name of Cuddle, who was bred in America, is to be found in the
General Stud Book ; her son is very well bred.
Right For'ard, a rare stock-getter, has been mentioned ; he has a beautiful shoulder, well laid back, and such manners that the head groom can ride him with a leading rein. There is also a three-year-old stallion named Belsire, who is by Right For'ard, out of Black Bella by Blackthorn, her dam by Tynedale, out of Bella Donna by Launcelot. This colt was bred by Sir John Barker, and is, of course, thoroughbred ; he has fine quality, and considerable length, but is a little horse, and should sire stock of the right size. His dam, though a thoroughbred, was played in a Champion Cup contest.
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 1:14:54 PM
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Melynda, You need to look at Beldame on you Data S.
"Beldame is out of Bella Donna, there can be no querie how this filly is bred, its sealed in stone.
and all her off springs names start with 'Bell'.
Beldame is by the wrong Bella Donna.
This Bella Donna was covered as a three year-old by Uncas in 1888 and sent to New York, she has not got any recorded entries in the GSB.
We need Bella Donna by Launcelot as that is established from the old book mentioned above.
I got GSB Vol 9 where she is entered on page 292 (there are two more Bella Donna's in this volume both by Strychnine and born 1855, -57, but they are not the correct one).
"Belsire, who is by Right For'ard, out of Black Bella by Blackthorn, her dam by Tynedale, out of Bella Donna by Launcelot"
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Edited by - Melynda on 30 Oct 2009 1:24:53 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 1:27:31 PM
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Hi Melynda, All OK.. now agree with you.. just eed one or two years of birth..
Thank you..looks good.
Sue
(Now onto TABARIN - NPS 1682 Bay 14.2h & G.S.B Vol 26 /
breeder Madam P. Den Prelle De La Niep
owner Sir Ian Williams )
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Nov 2009 12:08:40 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 12:26:34 PM
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Hi Nimlat, Yes found reference to BELSIRE in NPS Vol.XXII 1934 -1936, as the sire of Alicia 5133, Chestnut, 14.2h. Who is the dam of MALICE 1920 NPS. 1371, and who was used and appears in the riding pony breeding we are so familiar with, looks like they nwere all top class polo ponies.
Still looking for two dates relating to BELSIRE. His year of birth in Bishops Stortford and the year he was expoirted to Argentina, if any one can help.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/belsire
Thank you.
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Nov 2009 12:58:49 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 5:57:02 PM
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I think Alicia was born in Argentina (can't confirm it yet),
Malice was an imported thoroughbred stallion. His details are in GSB Vol 26 p.1335 and NPSB No 1371. I haven't got these books so can't look him up.
His sire Malandante is registered in the Argentine GSB.
There are a few Anglo-Arabs in my old AA register Vol IV by him. There are pictures of two of his mares in it will put them on Sporthorse later tonight or tomorrow as going out soon. |
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Rozy Rider
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United Kingdom
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 6:13:22 PM
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I've put Malamrah and Malanya's breeding and photos on it now. I've also put a couple of more of his offspring on website.
Interesting to see the Drummond Hay name mentioned as the owner of a few of them. |
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Melynda
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United Kingdom
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 12:48:34 PM
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WELL DONE Melynda, Her she is..
 BLACK BELLA 1902~
 ROSEWATER 1883
 SANDIWAY 1895
Thanks You so much.
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 11 Nov 2009 2:15:21 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 12:56:42 PM
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I have found a load more polo pony pictures in some old Polo books.
I will continue to put them on the SportHorse-Data website when I have time.
Also found an interesting notice re a welsh pony called Sandiway...
P.S. The date you put on Black Bella above is wrong, she was born 188?/189?, haven't got correct date yet. |
Edited by - Melynda on 11 Nov 2009 12:59:34 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 12:09:20 PM
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According to an old book by William Scarth Dixon Right For'ard was first named Mark Time.
Haven't had time to look through the GSB yet to see if I can find him under that name.
I have also found our Black Bella in GSB volume 18 p.654.
She has got three named siblings. Two full brothers and two half-brothers and a half-sister.
Information can be found here including the other photograph of her.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10569133 |
Edited by - Melynda on 11 Dec 2009 11:42:45 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 11:49:56 AM
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| Thanks Melynda, I wonder if active service means the war effort. Thanks Sue |
Sue
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 1:12:31 PM
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I think it just means she had retired from Polo.
She played in tournaments until 1902 at least and she would have been 13 then. We don't know yet if she bred anything else but Belsire by Right For'ard (Mark Time) in ~1907 but she probably went to stud before she got to old.
She would have been 25 when the Great War started. |
Edited by - Melynda on 13 Dec 2009 3:36:22 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 2:19:58 PM
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| Belsire is on the Thoroughbred section of allbreeds as being born in 1904! |
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Melynda
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United Kingdom
277 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 3:48:15 PM
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Hi Folks, I have no idea when Belsire or Black Bella was born ( poss for 1885, after notes she was covered as a three year old in 1888), so if you can leave the correct year of birth that would be great. I have no GSB records to hand. Belsire also went to Argentina and have no record of when that was too.
Also after the breeding and corrcet year of birth for Balquihidar. Brown 15.2 Vol X11 page 350 by Blair Athol, if any one can help with him too. ( he may be out of Cordelia.??
Thanks Sue.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 13 Dec 2009 3:58:54 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 8:38:01 PM
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"I have no idea when Belsire or Black Bella was born ( poss for 1885, after notes she was covered as a three year old in 1888), so if you can leave the correct year of birth that would be great"
As links to sport-horse data in previous reply; Black Bella was born 1889 according to GSB, Breeder Mr A. J. S. Johnstone. (I put all details I can find verified in writing on that Database as I contribute to it)
"Also after the breeding and corrcet year of birth for Balquihidar. Brown 15.2 Vol X11 page 350 by Blair Athol"
Born 1868. Ex Phantom Sail by The Flying Dutchman.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10569153&time=1260736664 |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 9:25:56 PM
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Thank You
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 13 Dec 2009 9:40:47 PM |
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BELSIRE - Some Photos Added Now.
