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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 12:23:48 AM
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| Got a couple mysterious ones for you Gari if you would please. Layya and Urfah |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 09:32:15 AM
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The first horse, African Emir is a fascinating animal as he establishes the strength of the Queen of Sheba line when it hits as a dominant which it has done, clearly in this instance. What you have with him is elegance, classical conformation and I'd guess a very steady temperament. A stallion who knows he is good, all boy and very reliable. I'd think he would be fun to own, ride and breed great mares to. Unless I've missed something, he looks to be nearly straight Crabbet as well, thus a true boon to Crabbet breeders! This is a stallion that you could breed anything to and the results will be spectacular, athletes and depending on the mare, should be very beautiful as well. Because he is an Abbeyan Sherrak, think you can almost treat him as an unusual outcross stallion, too.
Raji...Oh come on now folks. You know how I feel about anything Carmargue...coupled with El Shaklan the individual has to be very close to perfection if not perfection. His sire line is Skowronek and dam line I suspect is Kuhailan and tho' given as Verana...I suspect it is Kuhailan Dajania as it so consistently produces brilliant stallions. This horse has to be close to the most perfect of breeding stallions for he is double Carmargue, triple El Shaklan and thus, triple Estopa. If he is true to his pedigree in looks and breeding ability...WOWEEEE!!! This you should be able to breed a Missouri mule to and have a splendidly beautiful result! |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 10:29:35 AM
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Originally posted by kastellHi all been following this thread with great interest, being a newbie at breeding (expecting my first purebred foal this year - can't wait!), it's all very interesting & am trying to learn as much as I can, although must admit to getting a bit lost at times!! I have a few questions (sorry if already been covered & I haven't understood!), here goes; The tail female line & strain basically go back as far as you can on pedigree, following the dam line & you end up with the Strain. The same with the tail male line - I seem to be having more problems with this, as when you get to the end it gives you the female strain for the horse? Or is this what you use? e.g. Mahruss is Dahman Nejib, but do you then go back to Wazir or further they have different strains? Are there any publications that tell you about the traits of particular strains? Egbert would you be able to tell me a little more about my horse's pedigrees please? I know they are all Crabbet, (except the first on the list she is high percentage Crabbet), I can then see if I have got the strains right, without looking like a dummie!! www.allbreedpedigree.com/spirits+desirewww.allbreedpedigree.com/dominita2 (on lease being returned in foal to www.allbreedpedigree.com/hanson4) www.allbreedpedigree.com/wings+of+pearl (leased mare in foal to www.allbreedpedigree.com/indian+bannerI hope that I have chosen suitable partners for them (Being a newbie!!) Have you any suggestions for future partners for Spirits Desire? Looking forward to your reply.
Hi Claire!
Your Spirits Desire is so intelligent, crafty and full of mischief, that she totally lives up to her pedigree's sire line of Mahruss! And if she is pretty now....it is nothing compared to what she will be... Her dam is by Neuferet who is very lovely but even more important she traces in dam line to the fabulous Bint Helwa, a Seglawi Jedran via Nisan who conferred a special beauty to all of her descendants...an exquisite head with huge eyes (it may not be til she is 9 years old that you see just how big they can get). I love your girl's pedigree and would love to meet her sometime! Oh and she is a brilliant mover, too!
Just realized how many we have here...
Hanson is sire line Mesaoud; dam line to Dajania so he is a Kuhailan Dajania. His pedigree suggests a big robust, powerful stallion...a tremendous and attractive athlete! With the Bright Shadow up so close, would also expect him to be very kind and gentle.
Dominita is robust, powerful, intelligent, terrific motion and very attractive with an exceptionally kind temperament...Sire line to Mahruss and dam line to Dajania, thus she is a Kuhailan Dajania!
Wings of Pearl (you do like your horses to be intelligent don't you?)another Mahruss sire line...great action, powerfully put together but this mare is exceptionally elegant-more than the others and that is thanks to her dam line to Sobha via the fabulous Silver Crystal, thus she is a Hamdani Simri. What a tremendous mare she must be!
Indian Banner is a Mesaoud sire line stallion, big, powerful, and extremely attractive...A tremendous look at me attitude. He must be something special...Dam line to Rodania via the incomparable Risira, Kuhailan Rodania by strain.
You have wonderful mares and have made very good choices for everyone. The thing that I'd be inclined to do is cover with Seglawi stallions-which I don't think you have as straights in Crabbet, or Hamdani Simri which you do have available in the UK ... the one coming to mind most immediately to mind is one owned by Caroline Archer Sussex...Grecian Idyll, for whom I have a soft spot.
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 10:34:24 AM
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Hi Zenitha,
One thing that is heartening in the US is that the trainers are much kinder than years gone by. I find that most seem to have a really good rapport with the horses and don't think in the last few years that I've seen any in the hands of the top trainers, that seemed afraid of them. Don't misunderstand...they still can be rough but it is nothing compared to the past.
Recently a new judging system has just started and I've heard that on the East coast it is understood but out West it has been a bit of a disappointment. Hopefully it is more transparent and people will understand just how good or bad a particular judge is.
Appreciate your input very much. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 08:01:22 AM
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Eureka! Bob,
Thanks to Jeanne Craver of Craver Farms (she and husband Charles rescued the Davenports from extinction)for mailing the following:
Yes, she is a "Shaykha." That is a family that was originally Abayyan, but there was one special mare of that family that founded her own subfamily.
*Layya was accepted as an Al Khamsa Foundation Horse a few years ago, and her [partial] text in AKA3 (now published and available!) is as follows:
A "Shaykha" bred by the Khamis family stud, Rayaq, Lebanon. Purchased by Henri Pharaon of Beirut for racing and sold to Preston Dyer as agent for W.R. Hearst. Imported in 1947 to the USA by Hearst.
By Kayan, a grey Hamdani (by Gazelle, a grey Hadban, and out of a bay Hamdaniyah) and out of Nailey, a grey Shaykha [by a grey Kuhaylan (by a Hadban out of a Kuhaylah) and out of Obaya, a chestnut Shaykha by a grey Ma'nai Sbaili stallion brought to Lebanon by the French Army from Saudi Arabia in 1919, and out of a chestnut Shaykha].
The information is from George Khamis, who visited the Hearst Stables to see the horses.
According to Edouard al-Dahdah and Husayn Nasir [a leading horseman in Lebanon today], the usage of "Shaykha" in the female line of *Layya means that this line traces to a famous mare called al-Shaykha, of the 'Ubayyan strain belonging to Donato, a Lebanese merchant of Italian origin, and does not mean that they are members of the Kuhaylan Shaykhan strain. This mare was so noted that her descendants were called after her, the Shaykaat.
Jeanne |
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sabinelenny
Silver Member
England
413 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 1:57:39 PM
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Hi all and in particular Egbert, who put me onto this!
What a fantastic thread, enough here for a book?
We are new to breeding mares and I have admired your knowledge on 'Arabian Lines'.
Several friends have suggested to contact you for advice.I hope you don't mind as I am sure you must get inundated.
I wondered if you could help us in choosing some stallions for our mares.
We currently own 4 russian and partly russian bred mares.
Mazayah(2002)- Palubnik x Mimosa
BS Emira (2005)- Balaton x Energia
BS Fharia (2005)- Shakaar Ibn Sanadiva x Fortaleza
Shahi bint Balaton (1997)-Balaton x Sadaqa
My husband would like to use Kubinek and/or Bengali D'Albret, as they are both reaching the later stages of their breeding activity, and it may be one of the last chances we have to use them. I am not so sure about these and would like to know which other stallions would be good for us to use. He thinks Mazaya and Bengali D'Albret would be a good match, and Kubinek with BS Emira.
Mazayah moves beautifully, is tall, very loving but of slight build and I think may benefit from the 'Crabbet' influence.
Fharida has lovely movement, is confident, but of very slight build.
Emira is very strong,tall and muscular, but shy in character.
Shahi is big moving, slightly long in the back and most loving nature.
I would like to either use a different Russian Stallion such as Plumbum or Om El Mareikh or crabbet 'PHA Silvern Rislam'...
I would be grateful if you could advise. We would like to show in hand and under saddle.
Best wishes
Sabine/Steve Lenny |
   
www.purespiritarabians.com |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 2:19:10 PM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Eureka! Bob,
Thanks to Jeanne Craver of Craver Farms (she and husband Charles rescued the Davenports from extinction)for mailing the following:
Yes, she is a "Shaykha." That is a family that was originally Abayyan, but there was one special mare of that family that founded her own subfamily.
*Layya was accepted as an Al Khamsa Foundation Horse a few years ago, and her [partial] text in AKA3 (now published and available!) is as follows:
A "Shaykha" bred by the Khamis family stud, Rayaq, Lebanon. Purchased by Henri Pharaon of Beirut for racing and sold to Preston Dyer as agent for W.R. Hearst. Imported in 1947 to the USA by Hearst.
By Kayan, a grey Hamdani (by Gazelle, a grey Hadban, and out of a bay Hamdaniyah) and out of Nailey, a grey Shaykha [by a grey Kuhaylan (by a Hadban out of a Kuhaylah) and out of Obaya, a chestnut Shaykha by a grey Ma'nai Sbaili stallion brought to Lebanon by the French Army from Saudi Arabia in 1919, and out of a chestnut Shaykha].
The information is from George Khamis, who visited the Hearst Stables to see the horses.
According to Edouard al-Dahdah and Husayn Nasir [a leading horseman in Lebanon today], the usage of "Shaykha" in the female line of *Layya means that this line traces to a famous mare called al-Shaykha, of the 'Ubayyan strain belonging to Donato, a Lebanese merchant of Italian origin, and does not mean that they are members of the Kuhaylan Shaykhan strain. This mare was so noted that her descendants were called after her, the Shaykaat.
Jeanne
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As always Gari, thanks for this. So does this mean they have their own strain....Shaykaat? Or just the sub of another?
edited to add, I found it, she is "Shaykha". Not many left around that I have seen.
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Edited by - willowview on 19 Apr 2008 2:26:10 PM |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
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Anne Harris
Silver Member
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 8:25:31 PM
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Hi Gari and everyone following this thread.
I thought I should let you know, especially Gari that ADH Psyches Passion produced a beautiful grey filly and as Gari predicted and I quote "So pure in the strain Seglawi....long necked, exotic head and very very refined" which is EXACTLY what she is.
I am really struggling to add pictures but will try again later.
Anne
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 10:07:19 AM
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Dear Sabine and Steve! Will be answering you in detail in a moment. Just have a couple of quick notes.
Bob,
First and foremost, Layya is a Abbayan Sherak, Obeyran Cherrak, et. al., the different spellings because it is based on the sound of the name as interpreted by whoever got hold of her....I personally think that the Sheykat...is just a variation on Sherrak, et. al....But the Abbayans are fairly rare.
In re Urfah...Don't know if I'd say they are better but her's was a line that was so admired in the desert and I think it was because she had all the characteristics that one associates with the Seglawi, isn't quite as fine but possibly more reliable...If that makes sense...in that possibly they are quieter and not as flamboyant as other Seglawi lines and possibly not quite as affectionate as the Zulimas for example. There are two *Urfah line mares that have won the National Champion Mare in the US: La Duquesa in '89 and Bey Fireeshah in '98.
Anne,
Good luck...Can't wait to see them! Needless to say ..."I told you so!" Seriously, am just thrilled for you because I know this will be an extraordinary filly.
Oh and wonderful news:
*Rushan's very first grandson, Hukam Maj, a fabulous 3 year old stallion, was Res. Ch. (or second...am not sure which) in his class at the World Cup!!!! He is out of *Rushan's daughter, Dinamaj!
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Edited by - Egbert on 20 Apr 2008 10:16:06 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 12:18:53 PM
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| Originally posted by sabinelenny
Hi all and in particular Egbert, who put me onto this!
What a fantastic thread, enough here for a book?
We are new to breeding mares and I have admired your knowledge on 'Arabian Lines'.
Several friends have suggested to contact you for advice.I hope you don't mind as I am sure you must get inundated.
I wondered if you could help us in choosing some stallions for our mares.
We currently own 4 russian and partly russian bred mares.
Mazayah(2002)- Palubnik x Mimosa
BS Emira (2005)- Balaton x Energia
BS Fharia (2005)- Shakaar Ibn Sanadiva x Fortaleza
Shahi bint Balaton (1997)-Balaton x Sadaqa
My husband would like to use Kubinek and/or Bengali D'Albret, as they are both reaching the later stages of their breeding activity, and it may be one of the last chances we have to use them. I am not so sure about these and would like to know which other stallions would be good for us to use. He thinks Mazaya and Bengali D'Albret would be a good match, and Kubinek with BS Emira.
Mazayah moves beautifully, is tall, very loving but of slight build and I think may benefit from the 'Crabbet' influence.
Fharida has lovely movement, is confident, but of very slight build.
Emira is very strong,tall and muscular, but shy in character.
Shahi is big moving, slightly long in the back and most loving nature.
I would like to either use a different Russian Stallion such as Plumbum or Om El Mareikh or crabbet 'PHA Silvern Rislam'...
I would be grateful if you could advise. We would like to show in hand and under saddle.
Best wishes
Sabine/Steve Lenny
Hi Folks!
Sabine and Steve contacted me about their wonderful mares and thought this would be an ideal group of mares to share with everyone here:
Mazayah=Sire line to Amurath Sahib via the fabulous Menes son Balaton's Palubnik. Her dam line goes to the great Sahara, a Kuhailan Moradi/Mimreh. My selection for her, especially as you like Kubinec is his son, FS Bengali, who is of the highest caste, Seglawi blood. To use Kubinec directly would be a tad over the top with the kuhailan blood. You have a very robust mare with her-ergo going to the Seglawi . Other top choices for her would WSA Charismma or WH Justice, also Seglawi.
BS Emira (Balaton x Energia)=Sire line Amurath Sahib; dam line to Gazella II, a Kuhailan Ajuz. Again, I'd probably use either Charismma or Justice with her.
BS Fharia (Shakaar Ibn Sanadiva x Fortaleza) is again an Amurath Sahib sire line out of another Kuhailan mare tracing to the Polish Urainka, Polish family #6. Again, I'd be looking for the Seglawi line stallions however, this mare, since her sire is a Seglawi, might be taken to your selection of Om el Mareikh...an excellent choice.
Shahi Bint Balaton is sire line Amurath Sahib, strain unknown but traces to Warda a mare imported from the desert to Austria. This is a mare I'd like to see you breed to a lovely straight Egyptian stallion, like NK Hafid Jamil if possible or WH Justice, Raji, Carmargue II, H Tobago, Silvern Risalm or KZ Ibreez. Unless you want to race your horses I would not be looking to French lines for halter or ridden purposes as they don't quite suit, i.e., Bengali D'Albret.
I think you are right to be looking a bit askance at additional Balaton, Menes, Nabeg blood. Overdoing a good thing? For those shy in character, you definitely want a BOLD Seglawi stallion. You truly must have some very gorgeous mares. Would love to see pictures and learn who you decide to use!
As for a book? I am working on it! Thank you for coming to the thread.
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spirit
Gold Member
England
567 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 11:20:13 PM
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Hi Gari, Anne has asked me to post these pictures for you of her WH Justice Filly. 'AHD JUST DIVINE' (and she really is!) 
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Cleworth Hall Farm
df.ballerina@googlemail.com
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Edited by - spirit on 21 Apr 2008 11:21:07 PM |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 09:21:03 AM
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| Hi Gari, thank you for the information on my horses (& their husbands!), I appreciate you taking the time to tell me about their strains, as you must get inundated with requests! Your description of them via their strains is pretty much accurate. When they have lost their winter woolies I'll try & post some pictures! I have a question about strains that I hope you don't mind clarifying for me; are their several spellings for the same strain? For example Dajania, I had Kehileh Dajanieh not Kuhailan Dajania? Also Rodania, I had Kehilet Ajuz of Ibn Rodan not Kuhailan Rodania? I'm just a little confused! Also are there any publications that describe the traits of certain strains (good & bad!). Thanks again, Claire. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 09:57:31 AM
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Spirit,
Thank you so much for posting those pictures of 'Divine'!!! She certainly lives up to her name...and am just so thrilled. Watch her folks! She is going to amaze everyone in the years to come!!!
Kastell,
Yes, Claire you have it right above. I do periodically note that there are variations on the spelling of the strain names as they are phonetically pronounced from the Arabic (heck the brand of Arabic spoken in Egypt is different that spoken on the Gulf compared to the Iraqi, Iranian and so on...Think of it like trying to understand Cockney, Scots and Irish English...nevermind the variations throughout region to region...In America they dismissed it as a lot of malarky apparently) so depending on where the one recording it is from...the spelling in the West varies from country to country and even 'in country'....So you have Oberon, Obeyan, Abbeian, Abbeyan; Kuhailan, Chohilan, Kehailen, Kuyhailan; Seglawi, Seglavi, Saklawi and so on. Some of the more exacting types that have visited the desert insist on noting the male and female spellings but as far as I am concerned-poof...the idea is to understand that there are strains and they carry an influence.... And I am working on the book but if you go back and read through this thread you should get a pretty good idea of what the strains are about. |
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sabinelenny
Silver Member
England
413 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 11:26:36 AM
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Hi Egbert!
Thanks for the advice!
We are looking for pics to to post, but we have not got any nice ones of Shahi yet, as we have only had her 2 weeks and most of the time the weather has been awful.
We will post as soon as we get some nice ones of all of them.
We have started to look at web pages on how to read a pedigree.
Thanks again
Sabine |
www.purespiritarabians.com |
Edited by - sabinelenny on 22 Apr 2008 9:58:15 PM |
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spirit
Gold Member
England
567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 1:25:53 PM
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No problem Gari, shes a gorgeous filly isnt she, she is all that Anne dreamed of!
I have left you a PM, when you get a chance.
Thanks. Have a good day. xx |
Cleworth Hall Farm
df.ballerina@googlemail.com
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 10:11:17 AM
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I am now married to a 56yr old grandmother .Our first grandchild Jude Raphael ,dark haired, blue eyed with big hands and weighing 7lbs 9oz was born this AM to son Andrew and wife Olivia. Attilio
Tail Female line .....female convict on first Fleet (a Guess)
THANKS BE TO GOD |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 11:14:44 AM
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| Congratulations indeed Attilio!! |
Roseanne |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 11:38:16 AM
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Congratulations Attilio, your new grandson sounds wonderful (pics please). Obviously a very strong tail female line, and with large hands too - very useful when clearing out horses stables!!!
Grandmother will soon feel young again when Jude Raphael grows a little
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 12:33:01 PM
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Attilio,
Huge congratulations! That is wonderful news! Now that you have told us you realize you MUST post pictures! The baby sounds absolutely glorious!
Hi Sabine,
Glad to help, but one thing that I must remind everyone...Never go by anything except what your gut tells you is right. No matter how good ones advice, that gut level reaction is the one you want to follow. If Steven still feels that he should go with his two favorites...Then do so by all means or you will always wonder whether or not you did the right thing!
Am looking forward to your pictures, too!
Spirit,
Check your message box!
Hey Carla and Roseanne! Good to see you two!
Gari
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erica giles
Gold Member
United Kingdom
767 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 1:58:18 PM
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| Could you suggest a book I could read that would start me off. My knowledge will never be as great as yours but I would like to understand more. |
erica giles |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 2:13:55 PM
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| Originally posted by erica giles
Could you suggest a book I could read that would start me off. My knowledge will never be as great as yours but I would like to understand more.
The best book, bar none, tho' not discussing the strains in depth, it at least gives them for the foundation stock, is the CRABBET ARABIAN STUD, Its History and Influence by Archer, Covey and Pearson. It also talks about the horses, what they were like, what stood out about them, etc.
If you study, you will come to know all you need to. It never stops with Arabians. There is always something new to learn.
Also, hope to have my book available sometime this year....
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 7:13:45 PM
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Hi Gari,
I know we havn't spoken on here for ages, but I have been following this thread avidly. Really looking forward to your book, I must put it on my 'wish list'.
Carla, xx.
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Tail Female Line....?
