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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 01:18:57 AM
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Originally posted by genghiskhanHi Egbert, Funny, I used the same metaphor of the cook years ago when explaining how to breed. Just my meal was soup in stead of stew  I agree but 3) ? I don’t think it is good as long as we don’t know the purpose of our breeding. Breeding An Arab now is an effort for a quick success. No long term vision in how to use the horse, or to work with the breed. Accept maybe in special fields like the ring or the track. The multipurpose Arabian is therefore losing treats on all sides. Specialised show horses looses treats for good legs, and endurance horses for elegance. Maybe it can be restored, like you mention, but for what purpose? You need to set your goal for breeding with a long term vision. As long as breeding is a business for private studs and rich individuals there is no need for long time vision. People, now, abuse the carefully build lines and strains for easy money. Buy a champ, breed with a champ and the heterosis gives you a new champ; abuse of heterosis (hybrid vigour?) and destructive for the strains, family. Breeding horses used to be a matter of states. Ministry of war, state studs in France, Spain, Tunis or Russia, they knew the meaning of long term vision.
I agree with you that there must be a plan...There are no words...But for the real breeder, a plan is always there plus the effort to learn. Trust me. What happened 150 years ago was a good thing. It created a challange for the state studs. But too often they just over bred a huge volume and retained the best, to the point that 100's ended up on Europe's dinner tables. That is why the small breeder, with a vision is critical. Two points of interest:
1)Most American breeders cannot breed straight Polish or Straight Russian enough to have a US National halter winner. They can breed performance champs from those lines...
2.Our greatest winners who have bred on are those who were created by a small breeder...Fadjur, *Padron (bred in the Netherlands by the way), *Carmargue, Ferzon, Gai Parada, etc.
Have you looked at those horses out in the desert before we started mixing them up 150 years ago? They looked barely any different than the feral mustangs running about the American plains and deserts. The westerner came along and started breeding and initially started looking at what precipitated out that they liked...
From there you have to look at these bloodlines not only as the ingredients for the stew/soup/ chemistry experiment....but as a great mystery...a whodunit...And once we understand some of those ingredients really well, we can breed an ever greater horse. That is why if you want a great athlete...you must first look at the blood tracing to Ferida imported by the Blunts, the Keheilans via Rodania, Nejdme and so on.
IMHO the greatest breeder who has just retired, is Don Diego Mendez. Over and over his horses have led the way in tremendous beauty, reliability and worldwide influence. He has had incredible vision. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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dreammagic
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 01:33:19 AM
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Thats him! Think he is still a bit immature, he's not to spooky unless he sees Donkeys!
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Equine Photograpic 1st 3 pics, JPS EQUINE 4th pic |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 06:33:45 AM
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Oh he is gorgeous, Bob! Wowee! Who is he?
By any chance do you have a datasource you are accessing with a disc? Here is Murana OA directly from Sanacht copied directly from my datasource:
MURANA OA WEIL*1 Grey 1808
Isn't that weird? Now I have found similar anomalies with several other old timers...but most of the time it has been with those looking from a disc as opposed to the live feed. I report them and it usually takes about 6 weeks to get something corrected.
Isn't it interesting just how dominant that gene is? Both sides of Ant's pedigree are loaded with Sobha blood! No wonder. Interestingly *Berk carried lines via his sire so the action coupled with the smooth elegance comes through mightily with the Crabbet lines.
Anne! Poor Magic...Donkey's would be for him like a real leprachaun for a human! Very startling and then the funny noises....OOOOOHHHH!
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:23:26 PM
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Egbert. Yes I agree that Rusleema is a tad long in the back I think the coat colour tends toenhance this in the pict as she has a gap of only 2 fingers separating her last rib and the point of her hip.
Salute on the otherhand is certainly not long in the back. In fact if he were any shorter here he would be able to use his tail as an umberella to keep the hot Australian sun out of his eyes. He is extremely strongly coupled through the loins and his quarters are correct,powerful and give him tremendous drive. He is spot on when it comes to type and at 16 yrs of age he aint getting any younger.Unfortunately he,s not my horse,and that's the only downside.
I am hoping that between Salute and Rusleema they can come up with a little Raktha as their pedigrees carry numerous lines back to him. I don't think Rusleema follows the Rodania type, but she is very typey. I wanted a mare that would do Salute credit and I think she will. Thanks for the help in getting the picts up Attilio
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justine
Gold Member
England
641 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:26:04 PM
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Dear Egbert
re-Aryes el Ludjin x imeleena (5x ali jamaal, 3x bey shah, baby)
Please look at new arrivals to see him. Its a bad picture, will take more later.
He is everything we wished for, so pleased.
Only not sure of the colour. He has a black or at least very dark under coat, chocolate brown on top. Jet black mane and tail. No white around eyes. The pic gives a greyish tinge but not in life. I remember jazzmeen, his grandsire (black) being black base coat with a tan top coat.
But whatever the colour, he`s looking very promising.
Thank you
Justine |
jbassindale |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:31:32 PM
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Just received my march issue of the australian arabian horse news, I'm expecting an Osterich to be advertised as an arabian horse any time now.
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Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 26 Mar 2008 12:51:27 PM |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 08:55:08 AM
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| Originally posted by TOOTHLESS
Egbert. Yes I agree that Rusleema is a tad long in the back I think the coat colour tends toenhance this in the pict as she has a gap of only 2 fingers separating her last rib and the point of her hip.
Salute on the otherhand is certainly not long in the back. In fact if he were any shorter here he would be able to use his tail as an umberella to keep the hot Australian sun out of his eyes. He is extremely strongly coupled through the loins and his quarters are correct,powerful and give him tremendous drive. He is spot on when it comes to type and at 16 yrs of age he aint getting any younger.Unfortunately he,s not my horse,and that's the only downside.
I am hoping that between Salute and Rusleema they can come up with a little Raktha as their pedigrees carry numerous lines back to him. I don't think Rusleema follows the Rodania type, but she is very typey. I wanted a mare that would do Salute credit and I think she will. Thanks for the help in getting the picts up Attilio
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Hi Attilio,
You are most welcome. Can't wait to see the outcome of the breeding. I think Rusleema is very much like the Rodania grays...Am curious how you don't think she conforms to the Rodania type...Bet she is athletic, she survived what might have been a death sentence for another horse, and she is very beautiful. The Rodaniats are noted for fecundity, phenomenal health (long life), athletic ability with a tendency to be stocky BUT are most governed by color with the grays usually being most fine, and THE most successful halter winners!
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 09:22:45 AM
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WILLOWVIEW Well said. How long can you stretch a neck,and when are they so fine that they are considered weak. Personally I think we have gone too far already in this area. What are the judges who promote this type of horse thinking about?
There are many new dirty words eg EXTREME (damn near usless,pysiologically compromised) ,LONG HOOKY NECK (watch out for low tree limbs) STRETCHY, HEAD TO DIE FOR (needs extractions, orthodontic work and nasal passages opened ) SMOOTHED BODIED ( we dont like our women that way ie nondescript,boring, transparent).
Really when we use words that are over the top and full of emotion to describe an animal it's time to give up , see a priest or psychiatrist. And it's not good for the horse and deadly for the breed as it blurrs our vision . We were created higher beings that that.
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Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 27 Mar 2008 09:26:23 AM |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 1:40:37 PM
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| Toothless, I do like where you are coming from |
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gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 3:21:07 PM
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Egbert???
Hi Gari,
Here is the boy I am selling.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msa+foxfire
I may regret this, but I have time for only so much. He is going to a good show home and will have a full time job. I thought the information might be of interest to the new owners. I wish I had him when he was younger...athletic as all get out and very, very intelligent. He would have been a reiner and a good one at that.
Thanks in advance for any information on his lineage you could possibly provide.
Liane
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Edited by - gabriele on 27 Mar 2008 3:28:57 PM |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 3:38:26 PM
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| Hello Jane. Sorry for that little outburst; think it's time to pull my head in. It really isn't important anyhow in terms of family etc. Best to be low key and step back,it's the megabucks that are stuffing up the breed, rather than the people who smile at you and have missing teeth. I realise now that owning a horse is a life changing comitment and an imposition. But I'm swayed by the beauty and spirit of the breed, and it's ancient roots,together with the expectations of tomorrow. attilio |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 12:24:05 AM
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Originally posted by gabrieleEgbert??? Hi Gari, Here is the boy I am selling. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msa+foxfireI may regret this, but I have time for only so much. He is going to a good show home and will have a full time job. I thought the information might be of interest to the new owners. I wish I had him when he was younger...athletic as all get out and very, very intelligent. He would have been a reiner and a good one at that. Thanks in advance for any information on his lineage you could possibly provide. Liane
Interestingly Liane, this sire line is renowned for incredible intelligence but also very emotional. This is aline that needs the love of that one special person in his life. Am thinking unless there are issues, this is a horse that could be doing dressage easily and even reining as he is sufficiently athletic in pedigree to do anything the owner wanted.
The dam line is to the disputed *Nejdme, i.e., the argument being she was originally a K. Ajuz and then just after the end of WWII an interview with Mr. Bistany, her importer for the World's Fair argued strongly that she was of the highest caste Seglawi. That test would probably be the courage factor...Seglawi al Abd's IF they trust their owners, will charge and face off anything; the Seglawi Jedrans will simply charge whatever asked. As always there are no guarantees but the tendency is there...
By the way, in the flesh the Mahruss sire lines tend to be very very beautiful and loaded with expression....but hard to capture in a photo....tho' getting a dirty or mischieveous look isn't all that hard! |
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gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 01:27:28 AM
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The new owners will like having this information. The young lady that is buying him is just the right person for him to bond with.
Thanks so much, Gari
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Edited by - gabriele on 29 Mar 2008 01:38:11 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 07:56:00 AM
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You bet, Liane! Would love to see pictures if you ever have an opportunity.
Attilio, just one thing....all the extremes about which you speak is when the owners gave up control of their horses to the trainers here in the US and the Professional Horsemen's Association (I think it is called) was created. It goes a long way to explain why, for example, El Shaklan only made a top ten when he was shown at our Nationals. Probably the most internationally influential stallion in the last 50 years...and he was all but ignored here...That he wasn't is defined by his near legendary status. On the one hand the very top trainers do a sensational job showing these critters...they are real showman...But it is unnerving to see a stallion or mare win a class who has offset cannons, club feet, straight pasterns and a vicious temperament...sometimes all in one horse. In a show I can virtually guarantee you who will walk away the winner. Look for the great horse and then who is on the end of the lead...It will tell you a lot.
Over here trainers are approached with deference to their greatness as a rule...While in Europe, the UK and presumably elsewhere but the Americas they are regarded as employees...
The biggest problem I am seeing at the moment is that the middle class breeder is being priced right out of the market place. Training fees are through the roof , stud fees and even feed is very very expensive, too. So it is going to be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. |
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 08:23:23 AM
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Hi...
Finally got round to some photos of my guys:
Judals Tres Chic
Illuminata...now gelded. |
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Indalo
Silver Member
United Kingdom
298 Posts |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 09:55:27 AM
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Hi all been following this thread with great interest, being a newbie at breeding (expecting my first purebred foal this year - can't wait!), it's all very interesting & am trying to learn as much as I can, although must admit to getting a bit lost at times!! I have a few questions (sorry if already been covered & I haven't understood!), here goes;
The tail female line & strain basically go back as far as you can on pedigree, following the dam line & you end up with the Strain.
The same with the tail male line - I seem to be having more problems with this, as when you get to the end it gives you the female strain for the horse? Or is this what you use? e.g. Mahruss is Dahman Nejib, but do you then go back to Wazir or further they have different strains?
Are there any publications that tell you about the traits of particular strains?
Egbert would you be able to tell me a little more about my horse's pedigrees please? I know they are all Crabbet, (except the first on the list she is high percentage Crabbet), I can then see if I have got the strains right, without looking like a dummie!!
www.allbreedpedigree.com/spirits+desirewww.allbreedpedigree.com/dominita2 (on lease being returned in foal to www.allbreedpedigree.com/hanson4)www.allbreedpedigree.com/wings+of+pearl (leased mare in foal to www.allbreedpedigree.com/indian+banner
I hope that I have chosen suitable partners for them (Being a newbie!!) Have you any suggestions for future partners for Spirits Desire?
Looking forward to your reply. |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 3:11:35 PM
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Egbert -
I know this slightly off topic but I totally agree with your comments regarding the difference between attitudes towards handlers in Europe and the USA.
I find the idea that an Arab can win a high profile class with the conformational faults you mention horrifying, and yet I know it happens all the time, as you say - and then these animals are seen as wonderful and used for breeding, possibly passing on these faults...
Even more horrifying is that these trainers (USA) who largely seem to terrify the horses they are handling (how much abuse do you have to give a horse to make it shake from top to toe just by looking at it?)have such a position of power in the Arabian world in that country 
I feel for those people who want to show their horses with kindness, but stand no chance against the big boys
Sorry, off my soapbox now (can't help it when it comes to this subject) 
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 03:25:48 AM
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Hello Gari..("oh jeez" she thinks) Got a couple more tf's that got me curious. Kadisza and El Dahma. Again I apoplogize if these were covered earlier .
Please disregard this request Gari.....went back and found them!! |
Edited by - willowview on 02 Apr 2008 3:49:13 PM |
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Topic |
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Tail Female Line....?
)---that should be "IS" a super chestnut!!
